"Eagle and Fanion organization" Topic

Im organizing my French army loosly based around 1809 with 3 battalion regiments and 2 regiment Brigades. So would only the first battalion of the brigade get the eagle and french colors? and the other 5 get the fanions? Or would each regiment be treated seperately?

Am i just lost in the Black powder "brigade" based thinking?

For *each* line infantry regiment, per décret impérial du 18 février 1808 ….

1er bataillon --- garde de l'aigle : lieutenant port-aigle, sergent 2e porte-aigle, sergent 3e porte-aigle **, 6x caporal-fourrier

2e bataillon --- garde d'enseigne : sergent-major port-enseigne *, 2x sergent, 6x caporal-fourrier

3e bataillon --- garde d'enseigne : sergent-major port-enseigne *, 2x sergent, 6x caporal-fourrier

* typically from the grenadier company, color of the enseigne (also called fanion) not specified by regulation until 1811
** halbards not authorized until the décret du 26 juin 1809, casques authorized in 1811

Per ordre du 26 mars 1807, the infanterie légère were not supposed to take their aigles on campaign.

However, all these regulations may or may not have been perfectly followed.

wut? i just want to know what flags to use for my battalions

Michman told you Green Cheek. In a three battalion field regiment you have one eagle and two battalion fanions. That means in a brigade containing 2 regiments each of which contained 3 battalions you would have two eagles and four battalion fanions. He also provided you with additional information on the color party which might or might not be helpful to you, but which others here might find helpful.

Perhaps a "thank you" would be the more appropriate response.

I dont speak french and i didnt understand thats why i was asking for clarification. Perhaps instead of sitting on that frying pan all day you think and underrstand that some people really have no base knowledge on how things work and need clarification . The first half of your response was helpful in that mannor.

I completely understand why Green Cheek did not understand the response.

79thPA + 1

As do I.

I would completly understand if Michman would never answer a question of Green Cheek again.
Thank you Michman for providing such useful information.

Why are you all so upsett lol? I never once said anything bad to Michman. no need for salt

If you have no base knowledge you could post in the "Getting started with Napoleonics" forum.
"wut?" is inappropriate; "Perhaps instead of sitting on that frying pan all day" is offensive. (Why are you all(sic) so upsett) "lol?" is improper.
Have a nice day, Sir.

wow. wut= what sorry that spelling offended you somehow but I was sitting on my phone waiting for lunch when i typed that and it is most certainly not "inappropriate" and yeah. Getting this upsett about something that 1) wasnt agreesive and 2) wasnt directed at you does give off some angry vibes on your part.(your responses now prove me right) If Michman was upsett with the way I responded, Id invite him to let me know so i could appologies for any misunderstandings but there is no need for any of your negativity. This is a forum for napoleonic miniature wargaming. Not congress. I sincerly hope your day gets better.

I do apologize. I thought since the French and English words were so similar that putting some key-words in French would make it easier to find follow-up info. Let me re-post, please :

For *each* Line Infantry regiment, per an Imperial Decree of 18 February 1808 …. 
1st battalion --- guard of the eagle : lieutenant eagle-bearer, sergeant 2nd eagle-bearer, 
sergeant 3rd eagle-bearer **, 6x quatermaster corporal
2nd battalion --- guard of the ensign : sergeant-major ensign-bearer *, 2x sergeant,
 6x quatermaster corporal
3rd battalion --- guard of the ensign : sergeant-major ensign-bearer *, 2x sergeant,
 6x quatermaster corporal
* typically from the grenadier company, color of the ensign
 (also called fannion) not specified by regulation until 1811
** halberds were not authorized until an Imperial Decree 
of 26 June 1809, helmets were authorized in 1811
Per an Order of 26 March 1807, the Light Infantry were not 
supposed to take their eagles on campaign.
However, all these regulations may or may not have 
been perfectly followed.

I gave the details of the color parties because miniature makers often offer later (for after 1811) or earlier (for before 1808) models. So a little extra care in selection for 1809 might be considered.

Again, please do accept my apologies. This is an English language forum, and my English is usually pretty good for a foreigner.

I wasn`t upset. I tried to answer your question "Why are you all so upsett lol?" cause you seem to have no clue (not only about napoleonics)
And I am not angry, rather amused. Welcome to TMP

Mitchman you have no need to apologies at all. It was very nice of you to respond with a translation. It appears some other members wanted to blow everything out of proportion. My main concern at this point is making sure you don't feel like I slighted you in any way. I really appreciate your response

@dogtail. TMP or not I live in reality. and reality is that i clearly meant no ill will towards mitch. Now, again, I advise you to drop it and stop with the negativity. This is a good forum that has no need for poison.

I am impressed with @Michman, I wouldn't have cared to offer a translation.

And to think people believe that Napoleonics is full of grumpy old men!

Michman, you are a TMP treasure. Thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge.

Or you could do some of Oudinot's II Corps of all 4th Battalions. Key thing is not to use the post 1811 coloured fannions. It seems to most likely to me that 2/3 Battalions, if they left their eagles behind, probably still used the same flag. I say if because the 9th Hussars took all their Eagles to Russia in 1812 in contravention of the rules and there's a general supposition that Colonels weren't that good at getting rid of other things like voltigeur colpacks [busbys] either.

@von Winterfeldt, 79thPA & dogtail
Thank you for your kind thoughts !

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"likely to me that 2/3 Battalions, if they left their eagles behind, probably still used the same flag"

I have often guessed the same, as there were no instructions (or budget) for making anything else – although we do know of some exmples of fanions and some examples of regiments taking more than one eagle on campaign.

Hi Michman,

where in the 1808 Decret is noted the precisions about 1st ,2nd and 3rd Battalion ?
I can recall a discussion here moons ago were the senior commander for the regiment was in fact located with the second Bn (center position) and not the first (right) or with the 3rd (left). i can't recall the ref. text for this unfortunately.
i believe it's an interesting question for the command and direction of the bodies of troops.
ref = link

TITRE TROISIÈME – Dispositions générales.
(…)

Article 17

Chaque régiment aura une aigle qui sera portée par un porte-aigle ayant le grade de lieutenant ou de sous-lieutenant et comptant au moins dix ans de service, ou ayant fait les quatre campagnes d'Ulm, d'Austerlitz, d'Iéna et de Friedland. ll jouira de la solde de lieutenant de première classe.

Deux braves pris parmi les anciens soldats non lettrés, qui, par cette raison, n'auront pu obtenir d'avancement, ayant au moins dix ans de service, avec le titre, l'un de second porte-aigle et l'autre de troisième porte-aigle, seront toujours placés à côté de l'aigle. Ils auront rang de sergent et la paye de sergent-major. Ils porteront quatre chevrons sur les deux bras.
L'aigle restera toujours là où il y aura le plus de bataillons réunis. Les porte-aigles font partie de l'état-major du régiment. Ils sont nommés tous les trois par nous et ne peuvent être destitués que par nous.

Article 18

Chaque bataillon de guerre aura une enseigne portée par un sous-officier choisi par le chef dans une des compagnies de ce bataillon.
Le bataillon de dépôt n'aura aucune enseigne.

Article 19

Les régiments de ligne ont seuls des aigles pour drapeaux. Les autres corps ont des enseignes. Nous nous réservons le droit de donner nous-même les nouvelles aigles et les enseignes aux nouveaux régiments.

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Section 17

Each regiment will have an eagle which will be carried by an eagle carrier having the rank of lieutenant or second lieutenant and having at least ten years of service, or having made the four campaigns of Ulm, Austerlitz, Jena and of Friedland. He will enjoy the pay of lieutenant first class.

Two brave men taken from among the former unliterate soldiers, who, for this reason, could not obtain promotion, having at least ten years of service, with the title, one of second eagle bearer and the other of third eagle carrier, will always be placed next to the eagle. They will have the rank of sergeant and the pay of sergeant major. They will have four chevrons on both arms.
The eagle will always stay where there are the most battalions united. Eagle carriers are part of the regimental staff. All three are appointed by us and can only be removed by us.

Section 18

Each war battalion will have a standard carried by a non-commissioned officer chosen by the chief in one of the companies of this battalion.
The depot battalion will have no ensign.

Section 19

Line regiments alone have eagles for flags. The other bodies have ensigns. We reserve the right to give new eagles and ensigns to new regiments ourselves.

of course, best regards, tres cordialement

: )

From the February 1808 Decree there is also Section 28, repeating :
"L'aigle restera toujours où il y aura plus de bataillons réunis"
"The eagle will remain always where there are most of the battalions reunited."

And that's it.
Bardin, in his Manual of Infantry (1813) comments (page 254, note 1) :
"Aucune décision ministérielle n'a encore notifié à quel bataillon doivent être placés l'aigle et l'enseigne."
"No ministerial decision had then announced with which battalion the eagle and the ensign should be placed."

It is is also perhaps interesting that the Decree of 9 June 1809 regarding the regimental artillery "company" and various support vehicles attaches the latter to the battalion with the eagle, without giving a number.

So, placement of the eagle with the 2nd or center of three battalions is not at all a "violation" of any regulation of which I am aware.

"the senior commander for the regiment was in fact located with the second Bn"
The last Regulation of this, in 1791, put him between the two battalions of the regiment. Each batallion had a color party in its center. This was never officially changed in the era.

On the other hand, the 1st battalion was given the honorific position on the right per the Regulation of 1791. It was also intrusted with the White or Colonel's Color per the Ordinances of 1776 and 1780 and the Eagle per the Decree of December 1811.

I thought to give our Colleague "an answer" that I thought best, rather than a more detailed discussion. Perhaps I should have explained in more detail than merely noting "However, all these regulations may or may not have been perfectly followed."

Tangentially, it's worth noting that not all brigades were two regiments of three battalions each. Sometimes there are only two battalions in a regiment, sometimes only one or sometimes three regiments. That's just me looking at the order of battle for Aspern-Essling.

Cheers,
John

@Cdr Luppo

De la garde de l'aigle

La garde de l'aigle d'un régiment est formée d'un officier qui la porte, de deux anciens militaires, dites deuxième et troisième porte-aigles, et des six fourriers du deuxième bataillon.

Elle est en place sur trois rangs, à la gauche de la deuxième section du troisième peloton du deuxième bataillon, et elle en fait partie.

Le premier rang de cette garde est composé. De l'officier, premier porte-aigle, et des deuxièmes et troisième porte aigles, placés, le troisième à sa droite et le troisième à sa gauche.

Les deux autres rangs sont formés chacun de trois fourriers.

Ceux-ci portent l'arme dans le bras droit.

On place de préférence au deuxième rang de la garde de l'aigle, les trois fourriers qui ont le plus régularité et de perfection, tant pour la position sous les armes, que pour la marche.

MANUEL DES SOUS – OFFICIERS D'INFANTERIE, HAMBOURG 1811
PAGE 6

Here you find the reference that it was carried by the second battalion, which contradicts conventional wisdom, as well as also the instuctions for the "fanions". This would also only suit if a regiment hand three battalions, than the eagle for the second battalion would make sort of sense – as like in old demi brigades the second battalions carried the sort of "main" colour which from design was identical to all other demi brgades with the exception of the number, while battalions one and three had very unique desgins different from each demi brigade.

However

But le décret du 25 déc 1811 says :
Le premier bn de chaque rg d'inf portera pour enseigne l'aigle du rg ; les autres bns auront des fanions sans inscription (…)

Could it be that this changed in between 1808 – 1811 ?

@von Winterfeldt
Very interesting. Thank you.

"Could it be that this changed in between 1808 – 1811 ?"
I think it is more that the practice of placing the eagle with the 1st battalion was mandated in the Decree of December 1811, while no location had been mandated previosly.

Note that there were supposed to be 4 battalions in the field according to Section 1 of the February 1808 Decree
"Nos régiments d'infanterie de ligne et d'infanterie légère seront à l'avenir composés d'un état-major et de cinq bataillons; les quatre premiers porteront la dénomination de bataillons de guerre et le cinquième, celle de bataillon de dépôt."
"Our line and light infantry regiments will henceforth be composed of a headquarters and five battalions; the first four will be identified as combat battalions and the fifth as the depot battalion."
With 4 battalions together, the center of the second regiment would, naturally, not be the center of the deployed regiment. But "4 battalions together" did not actually happen too often (ever?) in 1809.

Bardin, in his Manuel for Infantry (1813) attempts to re-write or update the Regulation of 1791. Whether this was his opinion or a statement of usual practise is unclear. On pages 444-445 he writes : "The colonel will be placed 30 paces behind the rank of file-closers, aligned on the center of the interval which separates the 2nd and 3rd battalions of his regiment, or, if he commands more or less than four battalions, he will place himself behind the eagle of his regiment."

I think we may have hi-jacked our Colleague's thread, or at least diverted it a little. He was looking for a simple answer.
As we see, a complete and detailed answer is not so simple – which, I think le commandant Luppo would agree, is not unusual for the French, including Occitans & Bretons.

@ VW / Hi Hans Karl ! you beat me on the ref about 1811 decree and 1812 instructions … ; ) thanks for sharing

@Michman, thanks also for th additional infos.

anyone willing to dig the subject : the book By Hollander about Drapeau et standards (1812-1815) and an article on the subject with various refs.

PDF link

link

best regards

more meat to the question, some additional and interesting elements … i tried to isolate the tactical and grand maneuvers elements

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The decree of 1811 (December 25) and the order of the day of 1812 (February 12) recognized by each battalion, except the first, which was eagle guard, a pennant that previous decrees had called ensign

sort of pennant instituted at the rate of three per battalion of infantry, under the terms of the ordinance of 1788 (August 12).
From this time pennants gained importance in infantry exercises, and became appropriate to battalion alignments, in accordance with Prussian staking methods, methods which Pirsh had recently imported from Prussia to France.

In general, the weight of the pennant scarcely exceeded seven decagrams or a pound and a half. Usually, and when the pennants are not in service, they are entrusted to the warrant officer; he keeps them, and he is responsible for them.

In some corps, the general guides carried a pennant whose shaft was thin enough to be able to be introduced into the barrel of the rifle.

The decree of 1811 (December 25) and the order of the day of 1812 (February 12) recognized by each battalion, except the first, which was an eagle-guard, a pennant that previous decrees had called an ensign.

The pennant of the 2nd battalion was white, that of the 3rd was red, that of the 4th blue, that of the 5th green, that of the 6th yellow.

These pennants were not only a tactical instrument, but also a distinctive mark of the battalions and the regiment. It was the equivalent of a flag, except that it was simpler to make and no honor was given to them.

A circular of 1812 (March 19) regulated that the shaft of these pennants would have two meters six hundred millimeters, and that its drapery would have eight hundred millimeters (thirty square inches). They were each carried by a sergeant-major; this pennant-bearer was chosen by the colonel, and performed quite the function of a standard-bearer. In this case, the pennant party did not differ from the flag party.

The ordinance of 1815 (August 3) attached a pennant to each legion battalion. This pennant provision was implicitly repealed in 1816 by the creation of color flags.
In the last century, the use of pennants was general. Imperial, Prussian, English and Dutch troops had one pennant per company; it bore the inscription of the battalion and of the company. An article by M. de Cessac in the Encyclopédie (1785) contains various proposals relating to the forms that should be given to the pennants

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In these excellent works, Belhomme (History of the French Infantry) mentions the departure of French troops for the Russian campaign:

"The guard carried only one eagle from the 1st Grenadiers and one from the 1st Chasseurs. The other battalions had only one pennant without any indication of regiment. These pennants were tricolor for the old guard, blue for the riflemen, white for skirmishers, red for voltigeurs and yellow for flankers"
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alignment flags…
Because you make yourself a battalion pennant which ultimately replaces the flag (which we don't have of course). An alignment pennant is carried by a corporal, who fixes it in the barrel of the rifle and his weapon as sergeant…
While a 2 m pole passed as well as a point is for the battalion pennant which is totally different…
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found a post on planet Napoleon, I quote part of it;

Indeed, I find in the work of Hollander ("Our flags and standards") that "The other battalions had only one pennant without indication of regiment. These pennants were tricolor for the Old Guard, blue for the riflemen, white for skirmishers, red for voltigeurs, yellow for flankers."…

This did not prevent seeing them in all colors and with all kinds of inscriptions, even though they were prohibited by the Emperor, the imagination of the colonels having therefore often taken over the texts.
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Under the Empire, following the observation during a trip to Holland of great chaos among the flags of his troops, Napoleon (1769-1821) standardized the standards; a decree of December 25, 1811 thus regulates their use while a guard of the flag is organized. The national colors are kept and on February 9, 1812, the tricolor is definitely ordered in equal and vertical bands, starting from the pole (Benoit, 2005; Richard, 2017). The association of the flag with the military fact is all the stronger since the making of the flags is then placed under the aegis of the Ministry of War, while, in the military world, the rituals and expressions associated with it are plethora. (the call to the flag, the flag salute, the flag vigil, the oath to the flag, the daily raising and lowering of the colors…

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Les fanions tactiques ou de bataillon sont apparus pour la première fois dans l'armée française dans le cadre de l'ordonnance royale du 12 août 1788 1. Ils étaient utilisés pour l'alignement des bataillons pendant les exercices, pour le jalonnement ainsi que pour la distinction visuelle lors des évolutions et sur le champ de bataille 2. Le maréchal d'empire Jean-Baptiste Jourdan (1762-1833) ne leur attribue, au reste, que ce rôle et insiste, par ailleurs, sur l'importance secondaire de cet objet, contrairement aux aigles. Dans sa description de la bataille de Talavera de la Reina, il explique : « Quant aux prétendus drapeaux ou étendards que Sir Wellesley se fait gloire d'avoir pris ou détruits, ils ne sont autre chose que des fanions, placés à la droite et à la gauche de chaque bataillon pour diriger l'alignement dans les manœuvres et dont se débarrassent ceux qui les portent lorsqu'ils sont obligés de faire usage de leurs armes. » 3

1 Ordonnance du 12 août 1788, Ordonnances militaires (1788-1789), Paris, 1788-1789, p. 1-2
2 Bardin (E.-A.), Dictionnaire de l'armée de terre, t. 4 Paris, 1841-1844, p. 2250
3 Jourdan (J.-B.) Mémoires militaires du maréchal Jourdan (Guerre d'Espagne), Paris, 1899, p. 236-23

the interesting point here is the use of Enseignes, Fanions, Flags, Eagles, etc. for various tactical functions

- l'alignement des bataillons pendant les exercices
- pour le jalonnement
- la distinction visuelle lors des évolutions
- la distinction visuelle sur le champ de bataille

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Avant le commencement de la campagne de Russie, il a été décidé d'adopter des fanions d'un modèle unique, compte tenu de la diversité des modèles existant jusque-là. Les documents essentiels établissant les dimensions, couleur, statut, étaient les suivants : le décret du 25 décembre 1811 et l'ordre du jour du 12 février 1812, qui définissaient les couleurs des fanions pour chaque bataillon ainsi que leur statut même, « (…) les autres bataillons auront des fanions sans inscription, et auxquels il ne sera attaché aucune importance ni rendu aucun honneur » ; la circulaire du directeur général de l'administration de la Guerre en date du 19 mars 1812, qui fixait les dimensions, les matériaux, la longueur du bâton et l'apparence des fanions 4.

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Tactical or battalion pennants first appeared in the French Army as part of the Royal Ordinance of August 12, 1788 1. They were used for the alignment of battalions during exercises, for staking as well as for visual distinction during evolutions and on the battlefield. this object, unlike eagles. In his description of the battle of Talavera de la Reina, he explains: "As for the alleged flags or standards which Sir Wellesley takes pride in having taken or destroyed, they are nothing but pennants, placed to the right and the left of each battalion to direct the alignment in the maneuvers and from which those who carry them get rid when they are obliged to make use of their arms. » 3

1 Order of August 12, 1788, Military Orders (1788-1789), Paris, 1788-1789, p. 1-2
2 Bardin (E.-A.), Army Dictionary, t. 4 Paris, 1841-1844, p. 2250
3 Jourdan (J.-B.) Military Memoirs of Marshal Jourdan (Spanish War), Paris, 1899, p. 236-23

the interesting point here is the use of Enseignes, Pennants, Flags, Eagles, etc. for various tactical functions

- the alignment of the battalions during the exercises
- for staking
- visual distinction during evolutions
- visual distinction on the battlefield

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Before the beginning of the Russian campaign, it was decided to adopt pennants of a single model, taking into account the diversity of models existing until then. The essential documents establishing the dimensions, color, status, were the following: the decree of December 25, 1811 and the order of the day of February 12, 1812, which defined the colors of the pennants for each battalion as well as their very status, "(. ..) the other battalions will have pennants without registration, and to which no importance or honor will be attached"; the circular of the general director of the administration of the War dated March 19, 1812, which fixed the dimensions, the materials, the length of the stick and the appearance of the pennants 4.

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recall here the changes related to the infantry eagle during the period 1804-1812. By decree of 21 Messidor of the year XII (July 10, 1804), each battalion or squadron had to have a flag (then, according to Napoleon's letter of July 27, 1804, an eagle), standard or handlebar. But after many losses and damages of eagles in 1807, the decree of February 18, 1808 establishes that there would henceforth be only one eagle, that of the 1st Battalion 11. However, if one bases oneself on the In the history of the 2nd regiment, the execution of this decree was not immediate and complete. This caused the emperor to work more substantively on this issue at the end of 1811. Moreover, it was necessary to determine the very status of the flag, due to the military practices of the years 1805-1807. All this brings us to the signing of the famous imperial decree of December 25, 1811, which introduces the new flag of the eagles, but also determines its role, its importance having become analogous to the statute of the eagle, and finally establishes the details of the organization linked to this relic of the regiment. The replacement of the French tricolor flag and the new status of the flags within the framework of the expansion of the borders of the Empire, the realization of the reforms, the strengthening of the power of Napoleon as well as his marriage to the Archduchess Marie-Louise transformed definitively the French Empire in traditional conservative monarchy 12

11 According to the order of March 26, 1807, "His Majesty orders that the regiments of light infantry shall not
12 Charrié (P.), op.cit. ; Regnault (J.), op.cit. ; Andolenko (S.), Napoleon's eagles against flag

best regards