"Gaming SYW v. Napoleonics" Topic

I haven't (yet) started these periods, but I appreciated the commentary from a different thread:

From Ochoin: "The Horse & musket era suits wargaming more than any other period. It has a 'paper, scissors, rock' aspect that translates nicely to the artificiality of table top gaming. I think this is even more true of the SYW.

I also game Napoleonics so I'm quite aware of the differences. There's a sort of stately elegance to Age of Reason games. No nasty attack columns, just lines of well disciplined infantry who tend to do what you want them to…until they don't. No swarms of skirmishers … Artillery is a step down from the killer it would be later. The better drilled troops of the era allow you to concentrate a bit more on 'proper formation.' Cavalry regiments in squadron lines, the passage of lines with your infantry, marching onto a battlefield & deploying from column to line etc.

And the uniforms. Of course, Napoleonics can be vulgarly showy, but the simpler styles of this era just look good.

And finally, it's always about the history. It's fascinating. I think we game more actual battles for this period than imagined scenarios. There's so many great encounters to explore."

From Frederick: "As to SYW vs Napoleonics, I like both but as Ochoin notes there is a certain elegance to SYW – nothing like a finely laced tricorne and a powdered wig to bring a certain refinement to what otherwise might be a vulgar brawl – the artillery once deployed is pretty immobile so you need to think this out – the variety of uniforms is staggering (the Austrian dragoons, for example, have four different uniform coat colours regiment to regiment) and the armies are a lot smaller. Do love Napoleonics but there is a certain je ne sais pa about SYW that makes it great to game."

and the armies are a lot smaller.

SYW armies might be smaller than Naps but you can have just as many figures on the table.

Could I add a mention of rules? These are a make or break aspect of any game – Napoleonics or SYW.

In Naps, We recently moved from General d'Armee (great rules -but too complex & slow) to Valour & Fortitude (great rules- fast but a bit lacking in flavour). In other words rule sets with acceptable flaws.

In SYW, we use our home-groan set, A Glorious War, honed & polished over many years. I won't pretend many (any?) would like them but they suit us to a "tee".

So the rules enhance the period.

Have wondered if didn't see a Napoleonic game first might have started a 7YW armies. Just luck of the draw.
I do Play 7YW battles with Napoleonic era rules and armies

SYW figures are harder to get – at least in our scale.
I have robust armies of Prussians, Austrians and French. This took some effort & a fair bit of ingenuity. My pals have Prussians & British-Hanoverians.

Some troop types aren't made – Austrian & Prussian cuirassiers for example, which required some elaborate conversions.

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At most notably absent is Russian SYW troops. I have some hope that something may be done with 3D printing one day.

My French – not running away for a change:
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I'd hate to say they mill around like sheep but the white coats add to the image:

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I'd also say--and they may drum me out of the SYWA for this--that the SYW can be a smaller project. You can, without doing brutal violence to the period, paint up two mirror-image armies and be done--which is why it's the preferred period for "imagi-nations." Napoleonics, by comparison, is a warren. I know a man with 30,000 30mm Napoleonics who is still lacking certain armies, and substituting another would be tactically different at a division or corps level. Even WWII isn't as bad at that level.

I'd also like to put in a word for the absence of politics--for professionals fighting because their King or Empress told them to, and they were paid for it. No hard feelings. None of this "I can't play Side X because they were bad people" or the fantasists convinced that if only Bonaparte had somehow won Waterloo, somehow the promised land of EU bureaucrats would have arrived two centuries faster.

Mind you, I have an abundance of Napoleonic castings, and thoroughly enjoy them too. Some days you want passion and variety, and some days you want reason, order and something more simple and straightforward.

For myself, I do period armies in 6mm, but in 28mm, I have a Red Army and a Blue Army in any historical horse & musket uniforms I favor--enough to fight out any Grant horse & musket scenario, and I'll use any SYW or Napoleonic rules I feel like. Those who disapprove will not be invited to my (solo) games.

Russian troops notably absent? Not in 28mm. That would be news to Minden (large range), Claymore (just came out with the unique 3 pounder battalion gun), Foundry, and others.

Yes, I think everyone would know SYW Russians etc are available in 28mm. That's why I wrote, "in our scale" which is NOT 28mm. It might be 25mm – also called 20mm & 1/72.

SYW vs Napoleonics – or, more broadly, 18th century vs 19th century – is an interesting question. The 1790s are an important watershed and the warfare (hence the games) before is very different from what comes after.

The stately pageantry etc of C18 has its charm but I have a deep prejudice against its linear warfare because I find that, in general, it produces fewer and less interesting decisions per game than my beloved C19. (Per my favourite axe-grinding essay here:)
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However! This week I had the pleasure of a truly exhilarating C18 game – not SYW but GNW (Great Northern War) – when we fought Kliszow. I am therefore forced to publicly admit that my prejudices are being eroded. :-)
Kliszow battle report here:
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(As always, no dissing of other people's fun is intended. De gustibus non disputandum.)

I studied the 16th and 17th centuries in graduate school, so of course I have two thousand unpainted WSS figures, around 3,000 painted SYW figures, and 3,000 painted Napoleonics. All in 15mm. It is a great century for wargamers, as well as a rabbit hole of Alice in Wonderland proportions …

Interesting that I described Napoleonics as a warren--meaning, of course, a rabbit warren--and Yogi chose "rabbit hole." Where in English we sometimes describe the subject of a trial effort as a "guinea pig" the German term is "versuchskaninchen"--"experimental rabbit." Is it possible that all of us who play Napoleonics are the test subjects of miniature warfare? Feels like it sometimes when some enthusiast hauls out another rule set.

"Historical AND fast-playing! Honest! This time for sure!!"

I play and love both periods.
I believe….and this is just my opinion, that I am a better Napoleonic player because I gamed SYW first.
And my Russians are brawlers!

Jim Duncan has a good point – while my Napoleonic armies are a lot bigger in terms of figs than my SYW armies, that is mostly because I do Napoleonics in 6mm and SYW in 28!

@ochoin Here is a 3d print range from War Bear Studios:

Plenty of Russians and I see cuirassiers as well. I have some of his AWI/F&I files. They should scale to 20mm with no problem. You may be able to find them printed on Etsy if you don't have a printer.

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DeR – thanks for that. I'll look into it.

The main thing, for me, is that SYW games are fun, not a wrestle with a rules-book or opinions. From a gaming point of view there was a broad parity of technology, and similarity of troop quality, across the protagonists in the WAS/SYW- though some more recent rules sets seem to want to convert the Prussian infantry into the the SYW's <insert invincible Napoleonic unit/army/personality of your choice>.

Sick of the Author Wars (which still smoulder) and rules ideas like "national characteristics", Royal Artillery precision intercontinental shrapnel and French cavalry panzer divisions, I gave away my Napoleonics and went back to the SYW, where I'd started miniature gaming. No super-military-genii (not even Fred II), no super-invincible units- and SYW figures can be used for the WAS and some of the later C18 wars (if you aren't too particular about flags and the cut of the coat).

PS

DeR – thanks for that. I'll look into it.

Ochoin, you may be able to get your Russians after all!

Dal, as usual, speaking sense. A couple of quibbles though.

My rules give the Prussians a few advantages in terms of being better drilled. we tend to take these away in battles later in the war. It isn't a great advantage. For example, my beloved SYW French simply need to give themselves plenty of time to go from column to line. We've learned that….

I could also say, I do give Austrian grenzers a certain superiority over the generally useless Prussian light infantry. All in all, the various armies are generally comparable.

I also believe there are some amongst us who idolise Fred the G. I've never met one in person – then again, I've never actually met any Napoleon-love-struck lovers or Napoleon- rabid haters. Only on-line.

I might be odd, but when I'm playing with toy soldiers, politics doesn't really register. Even with WW2, figures representing actual nasty nazis are, on the table top, just figures.

About 200 SYW Russians would open up a number of interesting games for us.Hopefully, 3D printing will supply them.

Minor differences just add historical flavour, mate. Until 1744 or so Prussian cavalry was in real trouble if it met a similar number of Austrian horse, for example. Things didn't always go in favour of Austrian cavalry, but a small modifier to reflect the situation would add to the game.

Rules which are written so that one nation or another always wins are a different matter, whether it's pseudo-historical or not.

Figures are figures, I agree, but there are some troops/armies I'll never own. That's just my own personal bias, though.

Mind you, not everything is good about the "Lace Wars". Particularly the lace! What was the Mestre de Chef thinking when he put all that white lace braid on the Dragons Royaux? I'm not up to where I have to paint the lace yet. I've been finding more important things to do- anything at all- instead.

Dixit Marmont:
"Before the French Revolution, all the infantry, formed in regiments and brigades, was collected in a single battle-corps, drawn up in two lines, each of which had a right and a left wing. The cavalry was usually placed upon the wings, and the artillery—which at this period was very unwieldy—was distributed along the front of each line. The army camped together, marching by lines or by wings; and, as there were two cavalry wings and two infantry wings, if the march was by wings four columns were thus formed. When they marched by lines, (which was specially applicable to flank movements,) two columns were formed, unless, on account of local circumstances, the cavalry the cavalry or a part of the infantry had camped in a third line,—which was rare."

No rules with plenty of little batallions going here and there in all directions, if allowed/promoted by the rules is not the way for 7yw.

That applies to a lot of rules in all periods, jcfrog. Or, possibly more accurately, to wargamers who don't want to worry about command and control issues.

@Dal Gavan

Some well intentioned advice: If you are running into "Royal Artillery precision intercontinental shrapnel and French cavalry panzer divisions" I would say that it is time to shop for a better researched and/or designed set of rules. As with any hobby, from motorcycles to teddy bears (I collect neither), there are good products and there are not so good products. If you end up with a lousy bike that breaks down all the time, it is not time to give up on motorcycles, it is time to find a better bike! And if necessary, a better club to ride with.

Just a thought.

Napoleonic warfare is more disruptive, SYW (and WSS) is more attritional.
As I wargame as a hobby, less disruptive is better. And taking an attritional toll on the available beer sounds good to me.

Some well intentioned advice: If you are running into "Royal Artillery precision intercontinental shrapnel and French cavalry panzer divisions" I would say that it is time to shop for a better researched and/or designed set of rules.

Is jumping to uninformed conclusions another of your hobbies?

I tried most published, and some unpublished, Napoleonics rules from the early 70's until I dropped the period, about 10 years ago, and basically gave away several hundred painted AB and OG figures. Frappe, WRG, Newbury, Empire 1 to III, General de Brigade, Elan III, Green Jackets, etc. Operational level to skirmish. Some were good, some weren't. I deliberately used two extreme examples from rules sets I've played to illustrate my discontent with the period's rules, among other issues.

I even had most of the Les Batailles dans l'Âge de l'Empereur Napoléon Ier board wargames, including Wagram and Austerlitz.

So been there, done that so far as rules go, mate. I don't game the period. I prefer others.