"prussian flags 1813" Topic

Hi
just looking at the warflag page for the post 1806 prussian flags and i see it indicates battalions having staff colours also

I just would like to know – so did each line infantry battalion have two flags? what was the function and size of the staff flag?
Looking for some examples of battalions painted up with two flags, i dont find anything, but i do see some units painted with just the staff colours used.

"Staff color" means the color of the flagstaff.

Lol, I keep tripping up with that term thinking it refers to present officers

Should use the term pole instead to avoid such confusion

O was particularly trying to work out what the 1st Silesian line infantry flag was if it was blue or scarlet as I saw also pictures of both

Each musketeer battalion had two colors, the Avancierfahne and the Retirierfahne. Only one flag was actually carried by each musketeer battalion, normally the Avancierfahne of each.

The Retirierfahne of the first battalion was of the same pattern as both of the colors of the second battalion while the Advancierefahne of the first battalion was of reversed pattern and was known as the Liebfahne of the regiment.

According to Nash's The Prussian Army: 1808-1815, the 1st Silesian Regiment was still using the pre-1807 colors.

Field -- deep rose (i.e., the four corners)
center -- white
scroll -- deep rose
embroidery -- gold

If you go by what is on the NapFlags site, then it will the third flag down in this image: link for the 11th Infantry Regiment.

This is in opposition to the diagrams from that same site for post-1806: link which shows a solid red flag with no obvious Maltese cross.

And the reason they are called staffs is that they are shorter to be man-carried, while poles are the very long ones used in the various garrisons.

Jim

thanks Jim – well that just blows all my other conclusions out of the water – i was settling on the certainty that it was the solid red flag that was used and looking at Keith Over's
Flags and Standards of the Napoleonic Wars now i found on page 84 , the listing for the 10th, 1st Schleschisches regminent in 1813 flag was a Retirierfahne that was scarlet and with no cross

GeorgBuchner, You can also try the wonderful Mont St. Jean site:
link

thanks – thats an excellent resource i did not know about

though its for 1815, – so my question would be was the 1815 flag the same as 1813, and again is it without or with a white cross? is that Mont st Jean Site and the Keith Overs book correct or is Nash correct in his prussian army book?

can i ask when resources write about flag colours what part is the "scroll"?

I looked in Digby Smith's Prussian Army book and boy it is a slog to really find information in it at times, the way its laid out so confusing

- buried in a section on the 23. Infantry Regiment "Keith" (1. Oberschlesisches) Nr 22. , at the bottom on the page it lists

"Fus Bn- from the 3rd Musk Bn, 1st Schlesisches IR (this unit was the 1st Bn until 23 May 1815)"

- is this the 1st Silesian IR that i am looking for?

If so, then what Digby Smith writes for the colours is :….. well nothing prior to 1814, apart from just that all regiments had standardised colours of "black, white centre, black eagle, light blue scroll edged gold, gold emboidery"
i am not sure what the white centre refers to – the main cross or the colour around the eagle in the centre

No, the 23rd is a reserve Regiment, it's Fusilier we're a 3rd Musketeer battalion from the #11, at one time was the 1st Battalion. But becoming the 23rd Fusilier would not have flags

oh okay – holy smokes, the Digby Smith book is so confusing and lacking any kind of index does not help at all

there is a description in the section for new Grenadier regiments raised after 1807 on page 218

which lists "11. Grenadier-regiment 'Koenig Friedrich Wilhelm II' (1. Schlesisches) Nr 10.

- is this the silesian line infantry regiment i am after?
if so, i overlooked it because that section is titled"Regiments that later became grenadier regiments"

its listed Titles as of 20 Nov 1808 i – 1. Schlesischess IR Nr II, and from 1 jUL 1813 : 1. Schlesisches IR

Okay this must be the one, but why is it in the section on regiments that became Grenadier regiments

Unravelling Digby Smith's book:

Page 219:
"On 9 May 1809 the regiment was presented with one Ordinairfahne of the disbanded IR 'von Pelzchrim' Nr 38; red, white centre, gold decorations, red scroll: the cipher 'FR' in the corners and in the finial; white staff. On 14 February 1814, this colour was buried in the battle of Vauchamps and not recovered."

Page 220
"On 9 May 1809 the regiment was presented with four regimental colours of the disbanded IR 'von Alvensleben' Nr 33. They were cornflower blue, white medallions, black eagle, silver decorations and grenades, cornflower blue scroll with silver 'PRO GLORIA ET PATRIA', the crowned cipher 'FR' in the corners and in the finial, white staff.

On 18 June 1815 the Fusilier battalion received its colour in Paris. It was black, with orange medallions, gold decorations and the cipher 'FWR' in the corners and in the finial."

This will need to be cross checked against sources in German. But having looked at Heer und Tradion plates – the cornflower blue flags would appear to be for the 2nd Silesian regiment!

ok yes that entry is the right one then that is in the section on grenadier regiments

so can i just ask again – what does the "scroll" refer to ?

See "Prussian 1st Silesian Regt. Flags for 1813-15" TMP link and "Prussian Flag question..post 1806" TMP link

The scroll is shown above the eagle in the post 1815 campaign flag in the first link.

2nd Link doesn't appear to work – searching in TMP failed to bring it to light, so here is the google search link that connects to the post: link

Thanks Prince, I hadn't noticed that little ribbon above the eagle before that constitutes the scroll, too often looking just for the larger flag details and also looking at too many low res images

To clarify a bit.
When formed the 1st Silesian Regt. was numbered # 11.
When the Guard Regt. was withdrawn from the numbering sequence the 1st Silesian Regt. was re-numbered # 10. It consisted of two Musketeer Bns., 1 Fusilier Bn. and 2 Grenadier Companies.
The Grenadiers were detached and along with the Grenadiers of Regt. 11 formed a separate Grenadier Bn.
Only the 2 Musketeer Bns. of #10 had flags (one each Bn.) in 1813 to 1814. Both were the red field with white centre. #10 lost both flags in 1814 and did not carry any at Waterloo. These red flags had been carried by Old Regt #38 which was disbanded in 1806.
Also note that the pre-1806 Regts. have nothing to do with the post-1806 Regts. apart from receiving some of their flags. So pre-1806 Regt 10 is NOT post #10. Old flags were assigned to the new Regts. somewhat at random.