"Austrian IR36 facing colour" Topic

I am currently researching and amassing forces with the intention of eventually re fighting Aspen Essling .

However, facing colours are providing the usual contradictions with historical research.

I have started my collection with IR36 Kollowrat.

According to the Obscure Battles site, IR36 had red facings.

However, Perry on its lovely colour charts states mauve and Histofig has mauve clair.

Mr Rawkins in his excellent book The Austrian Hungarian Army 1792-1814states that his colour chart was obtained from sources from the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum Vienna, crossed referenced with contemporary illustrations and artefacts.

He states that the colour was Rotwein with pewter buttons.

I was wondering if anyone had further information about this units facings to clear this up.

I did a TMP search but found nothing.

In the meantime I must thank Von Winterfeld for the Ivory white colour suggestion for the uniforms. When lightly inked with an umber wash it looks just like the chap at the Vienna Army museum.

Marvellous !

Best wishes and a Happy New Year to all.

Chris

From Schematismus der Kais. Königl. Armée 1806
"Gris de lin" with white metal buttons.
While this equates to "dark purplish red", the colour charts for 1807 & 1815 show a lighter colour!

1807 at link
1815 at link

Thank you for this.

Fantastic stuff, which, of course makes things even more confusing!

However, it's not mauve!

Happy New Year.

Chris

IN the SYW the regiment had 'Weinrot' facings -dark purplish red.
In the Napoleonic period it had as stated above 'Gris de lin' facings – which is 'flax blossom' – a grey mauve colour.

see
link

Thank 'An Odd Request' on TWW for the heads up about this (and most of the answer).

That is another brilliant source of information.

Thank you, looks like mauve is back in the running.

Happy New Year.

Chris

You find a contemporary color sheet in the uniform series "Abbildung der k.k. Oesterreichischen Armee durch alle Waffengattungen" of 1820 … I published the series here: link

There you should find the differences between the different Austrian reds at least.

Greetings from Berlin
Markus Stein

See link
I made mine by mixing lilac and pink

Thank you to everyone for their wonderful responses and excellent source material.

There is a uniformity with these sources and IR 36 will have a mauve gray facing colour.

Great source for the rest of them too.

Time to get painting, at one to twenty five there is a lot to do.

Best wishes,

Chris

If mine, I would use "burgundy".

Have a look at this link for a list of Vallejo colour recommendations for Austrian facings. IR36 is one of very few that need a mix, rather than a 'straight from the bottle' colour. It's about half way down the page.

Cheers,
John

Thank you Johann for this information.

As stated, the problem with historical research is the amount of contradictions we encounter.

I am a little disappointed that Mr Rawkins excellent book appears to have got it wrong but the overwhelming evidence is Grus de lin / mauve clair .

My current regiment being painted is now re designated IR 35. ( red).

IR 36 is pending !

Thank you to all for your time and help.

Chris

Here is the "Schematismus der Kais. Königl. Armée 1806" link
The 1808 version shows a darker shade: link

Goodness me.

The plot thickens!

The first colour is a pink (ish) whilst the second is a definite red.

The documentation is most impressive following the passage of time, archival destruction during WW11 etc.

Thank you again.

Chris

I would opt for the colour sheet Markus Stein has linked.

Once you figure out what the 'perfect' color is, you'll find out the clothing manufacturer didn't necessarily match colors perfectly. And colors faded. and aged. In the end attempting absolute historic accuracy is a swirling black hole of doubt you'll never escape…

I understand that colours fade and campaigning extracts a huge toll on clothing but I am not looking for perfection.

What I am seeking is the correct facing colours for the regiments as far as is possible.

I have tasked myself with painting thousands of troops for my re fight and wish to avoid criticism of unit colours at a later stage when it will be difficult to correct.

Happy New Year to all.

Chris

Apologies – sorry to confuse this some more! Now looked at the 1808 version of the Schematismus der Kais. Königl. Armée and the facing colour was described as "bleichroth". It appears this change was made in the 1807 version. I believe this translates as pale red.

Schematismus der Kais. Königl. Armée 1808: link
Schematismus der Kais. Königl. Armée 1810: link

Side note, if you go to the 1808 document and look at IR10 Anton Mitrowski, Paperlgrün is a very bright green. Slightly yellower in the 1810 version, but still decidedly green, nothing like the vomit yellow it's often said to be.

I'll get my hat . . .

@ Chris

So if I can summarise this thread, IR36's facings were

red according to Obscure Battles
mauve according to Perry
light mauve according to Histofig
wine red according to Rawkins
"linen / flax grey" (= dark pink) according to Schematismus der Kais. Königl. Armée 1806
flesh colour according to Schematismus der Kais. Königl. Armée 1807
mid-purple according to a different page of Schematismus der Kais. Königl. Armée 1807
bleichrot (= pale red) according to another different page of Schematismus der Kais. Königl. Armée 1807
medium pink according to Schematismus der Kais. Königl. Armée 1815
pinky-mauve according to the Napoleon Series
3 Vallejo Light Flesh to 1 Vallejo violet red according to Loki

So that's as clear as mud.

It seems to me that we have two broad divisions here. Some sources indicate a pale mauve-grey shade akin to Luftwaffe Grauviolett. Others specify a wine-red colour. The majority of the variations above are shades within those general categories, not helped by the fact that the colour samples are 200 years old and in ink as opposed to recently-dyed fabric.

If these were my troops, I'd take all that as licence to use any damn shade of mauve or any shade of wine red I happen to like.

My Austrians (well, the long-parked WIP) are IRs 15, 28, 57, and 60, who are in madder red, grass green, mauve, and steel green respectively. I picked these units for prettiness, and my mauve shade is basically Milka chocolate bar mauve for the same reason

As for "criticism of unit colours", I say pffffffft. Who can claim to have a definitive reference for this colour given the above?

This was a pretty useful thread a few years back

TMP link

Heer und Tradition plate shows a light mauve:

as nice as those plates are still that information supplied by the link of Markus Stein would be my fist choice

Prince of Essling's plate is cool but look at IR 16 Lusignan (IR 50 Stain was disbanded in 1809 and is missing from the table). They had violet facings but IR16 looks very pale yellow to me, so I wonder how true the colours in that family are.

Having said that, the colour for IR36 looks about right to me.

The "chocolate" purple in 4th Cuirassier's picture seems more appropriate for IR16 or IR50 in my opinion.

Cheers,
John