Help support TMP


"Austrian Grenadier Battalions" Topic


29 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the Napoleonic Discussion Message Board



1,095 hits since 28 Oct 2017
©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Art29 Oct 2017 6:09 a.m. PST

G'Day Gents,

How do all of you form your Austrian Grenadiers, in a non-historical game?

1…Have a fixed number of figures for an Austrian Grenadier Battalion without using the Jung-Grenadieren (Young Grenadiers) which wore infantry headwears?

2…Using the number of line battalions as your starting point, you use the formula of two grenadier companies per battalion and then form the Austrian Grenadier battalions?

3… In 1805 the grenadier battalions were 4 companies each.
Two companies were called Alt-Grenadieren (Old Grenadiers) and wore fur-caps, and two companies were Jung-Grenadieren (Young Grenadiers) and wore infantry headwears.

In 1809 Austria had :
- 19 grenadier battalions [6 companies each]
- 2 battalions [4 companies each]

In 1813 :
- 15 grenadier battalions [6 companies each]
- 6 battalions [4 companies each]

4…is there another option?

Best Regards
Art

von Winterfeldt29 Oct 2017 10:33 a.m. PST

I still use original Grenadier batallions which existed for the designated campaign – I purley decide what battalion I use for the facing colours – like for my Austrian – French Revolution period – I picked von Zschock – made from

IR 16 – violett facings, IR – 27 emperor's yellow and IR 45 – crimson, so I have withing one battalion three different facings

ERROR - no url for link

Art29 Oct 2017 11:14 a.m. PST

G'Day

In your opinion for 1805:

For an Austrian Grenadier Battalion, when in column are the Jung-Grenadieren (Young Grenadiers) the last two companies in the formation?

Do the Jung-Grenadieren look like line Austrians?

Best Regards
Art

Prince of Essling Supporting Member of TMP29 Oct 2017 11:18 a.m. PST

Use historical as like vW I like a mix….
Here is a list:

Grenadier Battalions
(commander's name followed by numbers of the regiments that supplied the troops)
Battalions in 1793
Nimpsch 1/12/40
Bender 7/20/56
Beust 8/22/29
Bardodetzky 2/32/34
Morczin 19/37/53
Lowen 33/39/52
Rouviere 31/51
St. Julien 3/4/46
Keating 14/50/59
Burger 23/24/49
Zscheck 16/27/45
Redel 13/26/43
Wollust 44/48
Rousseau 9/30/55
De Briey 38/58

Battalions in 1799
Morovitz 1/7/12
Papp 2/31/60
Eichler 3/35/50
Zuchari 4/16/23
Piret 8/44/46
Rosenhayn / Wouvremanns 9/30/58
Weber 10/18/36
Riese / Weissenwolf 11/15/47
Czerwenka / Kleinmayer 13/14/43

Battalions in 1800
Paar 24/28/45
Schiaffinati 26/40/59
Kleinmayer 13/14/43
Weber 10/18/36
St. Julien 17/27/57
Khevenhuller 4/16/23
Pieret 8/44/46
Pertusi 19/34/39
Perss 32/48/53
Gorschen 33/52 (Joined by IR63
from mid-1800)
Weissenwolf 11/15/47

Battalions in 1809
Hohenlohe/Hromada – 1, 29, 38
Hahn/Habinay -2, 33, 39
Bissingen – 3, 50, 58
Scovaud – 4, 49, 63
Stark/Demontant – 7, 18, 21
Mayblumel/Trenck/Locher – 8, 22, 60
Peccaduc/Legrand – 9, 55, 56
Wienawski/Frisch – 10, 11, 47
Cappy/Oklopsia – 12, 20, 23
Puteany/Jambline – 14, 45, 59
Nissel/Berger – 15, 28, 57
Salomon/Welsperg – 16, 26, 27
Gregory – 17, 36, 42
Janusch/Gersanich – 19, 52, 61
Brzezinsky – 24, 30, 41
Leiningen – 25, 35, 54
Scharlach/Purcell – 31, 32, 51
Kirchenbetter – 34, 37, 48
Muhlen/Zetlar – 53, 62
Albeck/Chimani – 13, 43
Hauger/Portner – 40, 44, 46


Battalions in 1813-15
Frisch – 1, 12, 57
Krahmer/Lanyi/Barthelemy– 2, 19, 33
Scovaud/Salis/Erdman/de Best – 3, 4, 63
Demontant/Berger/Moese – 7, 20, 56
Locher/Possman/Jurissich/ 8, 22
Portner/Majus – 9, 24, 44
Hromada/Siegler – 10, 29, 40
Leiningen/Fischer/Haller – 11, 25, 54
Piret – 13, 38
Puteany/Bubna – 14, 49, 59
Berger – 15, 28, 47
Welsperg – 16, 26, 27
Oklopsia/Meinders/Oklopsia – 17, 18, 21
Veyder – 23, 43
Brzezinsky/Obermayer/Storr – 30, 41, 58
Purcell – 31, 51
Habinay/Kauffmann – 32, 39
Kirschenbetter/Mazur/Czarnotzay/Jarossy – 34, 37, 60
Georgy/Rueber/Call/Schussmann – 35, 36, 42
Gersanich/Dressery/Faber – 48, 52
Chimani/Eltz/Ghequier – 53, 61, 62

von Winterfeldt29 Oct 2017 12:42 p.m. PST

The Jung Grenadiere look indeed like Austrians – in case of 1805 I assume they still did wear their fusilier (helmet, no grenadier sabres) uniform – and indeed yes 4 companies, two Old Grenadier and two Jung Grenadier uniforms

@ Prince of Essling

Very usefull, thanks

Markconz29 Oct 2017 2:05 p.m. PST

Great looking Grenadiers von W!

4th Cuirassier30 Oct 2017 2:54 a.m. PST

@ Prince of Essling

Thanks, that's a really useful list. I had seen that somewhere else before, but I couldn't remember where it was.

My Austrian "army" is based around three regiments plus converged grenadiers. I have taken your list and swapped the numbers for the parent unit facing colours:

Battalions in 1793
Nimpsch: dark red / dark brown / crimson
Bender: dark blue / crab red / steel green
Beust: poppy red / emperor / pale blue
Bardodetzky: emperor / light blue / madder red
Morczin: light blue / poppy red / dark red
Lowen: dark blue / poppy red / dark red
Rouviere: emperor / dark blue
St. Julien: light blue / light blue / dark blue
Keating: black / violet / orange
Burger: poppy red / dark blue / pike grey
Zscheck: violet / emperor / poppy red
Redel: grass green / parrot green / yellow
Wollust: madder red / steel green
Rousseau: apple green / pike grey / pale blue
De Briey: rose pink / black

Battalions in 1799
Morovitz: dark red / dark blue / dark brown
Papp: emperor / emperor / steel green
Eichler: light blue / crab red / violet
Zuchari: light blue / violet / poppy red
Piret: poppy red / madder red / dark blue
Rosenhayn/Wouvremanns: apple green / pike grey / black
Weber: parrot green / dark red / mauve
Riese/Weissenwolf: pink / madder red / steel green
Czerwenka/Kleinmayer: grass green / black / yellow

Battalions in 1800
Paar: dark blue / grass green / poppy red
Schiaffinati: parrot green / crimson / orange
Kleinmayer: grass green / black / yellow
Weber: parrot green / dark red / mauve
St. Julien: light brown / emperor / mauve
Khevenhuller: light blue / violet / poppy red
Pieret: poppy red / madder red / dark blue
Pertusi: light blue / madder red / poppy red
Perss: light blue / steel green / dark red
Gorschen: dark blue / dark red / light brown
Weissenwolf: pink / madder red / steel green

Battalions in 1809
Hohenlohe/Hromada: dark red / pale blue / rose pink
Hahn/Habinay: emperor / dark blue / poppy red
Bissingen: light blue / violet / black
Scovaud: light blue / pike grey / light brown
Stark/Demontant: dark blue / dark red / sea green
Mayblumel/Trenck/Locher: poppy red / emperor / steel green
Peccaduc/Legrand: apple green / pale blue / steel green
Wienawski/Frisch/Frisch: parrot green / pink / steel green
Cappy/Oklopsia/Oklopsia: dark brown / crab red / poppy red
Puteany/Jambline/Jambline: black / poppy red / orange
Nissel/Berger/Berger: madder red / grass green / mauve
Salomon/Welsperg/Welsperg: violet / parrot green / emperor
Gregory: light brown / mauve / orange
Janusch/Gersanich: light blue / dark red / grass green
Brzezinsky: dark blue / pike grey / yellow
Leiningen/: sea green / crab red / apple green
Scharlach/Purcell: emperor / light blue / dark blue
Kirchenbetter/: madder red / poppy red / steel green
Muhlen/Zetlar: dark red / grass green
Albeck/Chimani: grass green / yellow
Hauger/Portner: crimson / madder red / dark blue

Battalions in 1813-15
Krahmer/Lanyi/Barthelemy: emperor / light blue / dark blue
Scovaud/Salis/Erdman/de Best: light blue / light blue / light brown
Demontant/Berger/Moese: dark blue / crab red / steel green
Locher/Possman/Jurissich: poppy red / emperor
Portner/Majus: apple green / dark blue / madder red
Hromada/Siegler: parrot green / pale blue / crimson
Leiningen/Fischer/Haller: pink / sea green / apple green
Piret: grass green / rose pink
Puteany/Bubna: black / pike grey / orange
Berger: madder red / grass green / steel green
Welsberg: violet / parrot green / emperor
Oklopsia/Meinders/Oklopsia: light brown / dark red / sea green
Veyder: poppy red / yellow
Brzezinsky/Obermayer/Storr: pike grey / yellow / black
Purcell: emperor / dark blue
Habinay/Kauffmann: light blue / poppy red
Kirschenbetter/Mazur/Czarnotzay/Jarossy: madder red / poppy red / steel green
Georgy/Rueber/Call/Schussmann: crab red / mauve / orange
Gersanich/Dressery/Faber: steel green / dark red
Chimani/Eltz/Ghequier: dark red / grass green / grass green

This may assist anyone who like me is inclined to pick an actual grenadier unit and then paint up the corresponding parent regiments as well.

Do we take it that the dates denote when the units were rejigged, i.e. the groupings for 1800 would be correct for 1805, those for 1809 good for 1812, and so on?

Prince of Essling Supporting Member of TMP30 Oct 2017 3:15 a.m. PST

4th Cuirassier

Good move.

The above grouping does not apply for 1805 – as I understand the grenadiers formed a battalion within their own regiments. The infantry regiments were reorganised by "the unfortunate" Mack into 1 grenadier and 4 fusilier battalions. Each battalion of 4 companies and a nominal strength of 160 men per company.

I will review my books etc to see if I have other lists including for 1812.

4th Cuirassier30 Oct 2017 3:41 a.m. PST

@ P of E

Good point, forgot about that for 1805.

von Winterfeldt30 Oct 2017 4:15 a.m. PST

yes no mix of facing colours in the 1805 – organisation for grenadiers, but on the other hand a mix in headdress.

Prince of Essling Supporting Member of TMP30 Oct 2017 5:23 a.m. PST

1812 – from the Militδr-Almanach 22. (Wien, 1812) – spellings as per original…
Berger(Zach/Frelich/Vogelsang)
Oklopsia (Reuss-Plauen/Reuss-Greitz/A. Gyulay)
Leiningen (EH Rainer/De Vaux/Froon)
Georgy (Argenteau/Kollowrat/Erbach)
Salis (EH Karl/Deutschmeister/Bianchi)
Puteani (EH Rudolph/Kerpen/Jordis)
Kramer (Hiller/Allvintzi/Colloredo-Mansf.)
Possman (EH Ludw./Coburg)
Hromada (Reisky/Lindenau/Wurtemberg)
Frisch (Kaiser/Al. Lichtenstein/Jos. Colloredo)
Dumontant (Wurzburg/Kaunitz/Wenz. Colloredo)
Dressery (Simbschen/EH Franz Karl)
Walsperg (Lusignan/Hohenlohe Bart./Chasteler)
Przazinsky (Ligne/Kottulinsky/Beaulieu)
Kirchbetter (Davidovitz/Weidenfelf/Ign. Gyulay)
Portner (Czartorysky/Strauch/Bellegarde)
Habinay (Esterhazy/Duka)
Chimani (Jellachich/Saint-Julien/Wacquant)
Purcell (Benyovsky/Spleny)

davbenbak Supporting Member of TMP30 Oct 2017 6:21 a.m. PST

Converged Grenadier battalions were the same size as the line battalions right?

The Wargaming Company30 Oct 2017 6:29 a.m. PST

The organization of the combined grenadiers of the Austrian Army really give a lot of color to the gaming table.

In our Napoleonic Campaign Guides we provide images for the grenadiers provided by each regiment, along with the name and number so that if players choose – and we hope they do – they can 'mix them up' as they were historically. We also indicate on our included orders of battle which regiments contributed grenadiers to each of the grenadier battalions.

-TWC
thewargamingcompany.com

4th Cuirassier30 Oct 2017 7:03 a.m. PST

The advantage of basing by company is that you can do either organisation just by reallocating companies.

Each Austrian regiment had 18 fusilier and two grenadier companies. So you can either have three six-company battalions, with the grenadiers converged with those of one or two other regiments; or four four-company fusilier battalions, with a fifth battalion comprising the grenadiers plus the odd two companies of fusiliers.

IIRC the fusilier battalions then got a 3-pounder apiece and the grenadiers got two, although these were usually operated as a 6-gun battery. Does anyone know what they did where a battalion had 3 x 6-pounder in place of 6 x 3-pounder?

Le Breton30 Oct 2017 8:43 a.m. PST

I love this forum!
I know nothing about the details of the Austrian army as I play French and Russians, but this thread is fascinating and filled with great information.
Thank you all!

Sir Able Brush Supporting Member of TMP30 Oct 2017 9:41 a.m. PST

I agree with Le Breton – brilliant information

4th Cuirassier30 Oct 2017 11:46 a.m. PST

While we're on Austrian infantry maybe someone can clear something up.

My understanding that Hungarian regiments were from Hungary and all others were German. So does a regiment from Transylvania (which has Hungary between it and anywhere "German") count as German? Really?

I ask because on the above basis, it looks like only about 1 in 4 or 5 infantry regiments were Hungarian. And an Austrian army needs light blue trousers. Lots of them.

Prince of Essling Supporting Member of TMP30 Oct 2017 12:45 p.m. PST

Transylvania counts as "Hungarian" – see extract from Enrico Acerbi's excellent contribution on the Austrian Army 1805-1809 (3rd link in particular):
link
link
link

Art30 Oct 2017 2:02 p.m. PST

G'Day Gents

Does anyone have a list of which regiments were German and which were Hungarian…

I know that in 1805 ten regiments (9th, 20th, 24th, 30th, 38th, 41st, 44th, 55th, 58th, 63rd) were recruited of Galician Poles and Ukrainians.

It would seem that Galicia was Polish territory for several centuries before the Austrians occupied it, and with that said, all these Polish units were dressed like 'German' infantry.

Best Regards
Art

4th Cuirassier30 Oct 2017 2:51 p.m. PST

@ Art

Sure, here you go:


Number / Name / Nation/Province / Trousers / Facings / Buttons

IR 1 / Kaiser Franz / Moravia / white / dark red / yellow
IR 2* / Erz. Ferdinand / Hungary / light blue / emperor / yellow
IR 3 / Erz. Carl / Lower Austria / white / light blue / white
IR 4 / Hoch und Deutchmeister / Lower Austria / white / light blue / yellow
IR 5 / / na / white / dark blue ** / white
IR 6 / / na / white / black** / white
IR 7 / Freiherr von Schrφder / Moravia / white / dark blue** / white
IR 8* / Freiherr von Huff / Moravia / white / poppy red** / yellow
IR 9* / Graf Clerfayt / Walloon / white / apple green / yellow
IR 10 / Freiherr von Keuhll / Bohemia / white / parrot green / white
IR 11 / Michael, Graf Wallis / Bohemia / white / pink** / white
IR 12 / Marchese Manfreddini / Moravia / white / dark brown / yellow
IR 13 / Freiherr Reisky / Inner Austria / white / grass green / yellow
IR 14 / Freiherr von Klebeck / Upper Austria / white / black / yellow
IR 15 / Graf D'Alton / Bohemia / white / madder red / yellow
IR 16 / Freiherr Terzi / Styria / white / violet** / yellow
IR 17 / Wilhelm Hohenlohe / Bohemia / white / light brown / white
IR 18 / Graf Stuart / Bohemia / white / dark red / white
IR 19 / Alvinczy / Hungary / light blue / light blue / white
IR 20 / Graf Kaunitz-Rietberg / Silesia / white / crab red / white
IR 21 / Gemmingen / Bohemia / white / sea green / yellow
IR 22 / Graf Lacy / Illyria / white / emperor / white
IR 23 / Von Toscana / Lower Austria / white / poppy red / white
IR 24 / Freiherr Preiss / Lower Austria / white / dark blue / white
IR 25 / Graf Brechainville / Bohemia / white / sea green / white
IR 26 / Freiherr Wilhelm Shroder / Carinthia / white / parrot green / yellow
IR 27 / Graf Strassoldo / Styria / white / emperor / yellow
IR 28 / Graf Wartensleben / Bohemia / white / grass green / white
IR 29 / Graf Oliver Wallis / Moravia / white / pale blue / white
IR 30 / Prinz de Ligne / Walloon / white / pike grey / yellow
IR 31 / Benjowsky / Transylvania / white / emperor / white
IR 32 / Graf Sam Gyulai / Hungary / light blue / light blue / yellow
IR 33 / Graf Sztaray / Hungary / light blue / dark blue / white
IR 34 / Anton Esterhazy / Hungary / light blue / madder red / white
IR 35 / Freiherr Wenkheim / Bohemia / white / crab red / yellow
IR 36 / Furstenburg / Bohemia / white / mauve / white
IR 37 / Freiherr De Vin / Hungary / light blue / poppy red / yellow
IR 38 / FML Ferdinand-August, Herzog von Wurttemberg / Walloon / white / rose pink / yellow
IR 39 / Thomas Nadasdy / Hungary / light blue / poppy red / white
IR 40 / Graf Joseph Mittrowsky / Moravia / white / crimson** / white
IR 41 / Freiherr Bender / Galicia / white / yellow / white
IR 42 / Graf Erbach / Bohemia / white / orange / white
IR 43 / Graf Thurn / Carinthia / white / yellow** / yellow
IR 44 / Graf Belgiojoso / Italy / white / madder red / white
IR 45 / Freiherr Latterman / Lower Austria / white / poppy red / yellow
IR 46 / Freiherr Neugebauer / Tyrolia / white / dark blue / yellow
IR 47 / Graf Fraz Kinsky / Bohemia / white / steel green / white
IR 48 / Vukassovich / Hungary / light blue / steel green / yellow
IR 49 / Graf Pellegrini / Lower Austria / white / pike grey / white
IR 50 / Graf Stain / Upper Austria / white / violet / white
IR 51 / Freiherr Splenyi / Transylvania / white / dark blue / yellow
IR 52 / Erz. Anton Victor / Hungary / light blue / dark red / yellow
IR 53 / Johan Jellacic / Slavonia / white / dark red / white
IR 54 / Graf Callenberg / Bohemia / white / apple green / white
IR 55 / Graf Murray / Walloon / white / pale blue / yellow
IR 56 / Graf Wenzel Colloredo / Moravia / white / steel green / yellow
IR 57 / Graf Joseph Colloredo / Bohemia / white / mauve / yellow
IR 58 / Freiherr Beaulieu / Walloon / white / black / white
IR 59 / Jordis / Upper Austria / white / orange / yellow
IR 60 / FZM Ignaz, Graf Gyulai / Hungary / light blue / steel green / white
IR 61 / St Julien / Hungary / light blue / grass green / yellow
IR 62 / Franz Jellacic / Hungary / light blue / grass green / white
IR 63 / Erz. Joseph Franz / Walloon / white / light brown / yellow
IR 64 / Chasteler / na / white / black / yellow

Warning: I've described as "Hungary" only those explicitly stated as "Hungary" in my source (Rawkins). Those get their trouser colour given as "light blue" and all others default to "white", the German colour.

It seems from Prince of Essling's info that this is a generalisation too far and that Transylvania at least – which is modern Romania – would count as Hungarian. I'm struggling a bit with Slavonia and Illyria being "German" just off the geography, and as for IR44, well, I give up :-)

I dunno what the *s mean any more and when I try to remove them Excel blanks the whole cell [shrug]

Better information welcome!

Prince of Essling Supporting Member of TMP30 Oct 2017 3:04 p.m. PST

See chart at Napoleonistyka link
Uniforms of Austrian Line Infantry ~ post 1798 ~ which has
Regiment (nationality) Breeches Coat Facings & Buttons

4th Cuirassier30 Oct 2017 3:21 p.m. PST

The Napoleon Series also has a list
link

von Winterfeldt30 Oct 2017 10:36 p.m. PST

I really recommend for all those interested people to go to napoleon-series.org and look up the articles of Encrico Acerbi who discusses all those questions in great detail, like a grenadier company was usually weaker than a fusilier company.

Supercilius Maximus In the TMP Dawghouse31 Oct 2017 2:22 a.m. PST

Warning: I've described as "Hungary" only those explicitly stated as "Hungary" in my source (Rawkins). Those get their trouser colour given as "light blue" and all others default to "white", the German colour.

It seems from Prince of Essling's info that this is a generalisation too far and that Transylvania at least – which is modern Romania – would count as Hungarian. I'm struggling a bit with Slavonia and Illyria being "German" just off the geography, and as for IR44, well, I give up :-)

This would seem to be borne out if you look at the make-up of the battalions. Hungarian companies are invariably grouped together into battalions, with the two Transylvanian regiments (31 and 51) and the Slovakian regiment (53) as the only "outsiders" included in such battalions.

Ravenfeeder31 Oct 2017 7:28 a.m. PST

The Croatian regiment (53 Jallacic) also counted as "Hungarian". Croatia being in union with the Kingdom of Hungary since the middle ages.

Prince of Essling Supporting Member of TMP08 Nov 2017 12:24 p.m. PST

@4th Cuirassier

You asked about the position of attached artillery – just found for 1769 whilst trawling through "Mitteilungen des k.u.k. Kriegsarchivs (Neue Folge, 1889" link
See the diagram at page 92-2 – unfortunately trying to embed it causes a problem (result is a diagram that is far too small.
I understand the regulations were still in being for the Revolutionary/start of the Napoleonic Wars.

von Winterfeldt08 Nov 2017 1:27 p.m. PST

thanks for the link – in case I am not mistaken it is for the year 1792 and should fit till the new instructions of 1807 (more or less, there modfications always happened)

Stoppage08 Nov 2017 2:21 p.m. PST

@PrinceOfEssling

Really interesting diagram!

I'd like to think of Austrian grand divisions (dion) as equivalent to other country's half-battalions; the diagram shows the three-gun half-batteries interlining them.

The regimental line with nine fusilier and two grenadier grand divisions has 20 artillery pieces. Using the half-battalion analogy that is equivalent to five-and-a-half British battalions with four (5-piece) artillery batteries.

No wonder the French fought them in dispersed order.

HappyHussar08 Nov 2017 2:49 p.m. PST

The Austrian army is one of the more challenging armies to play with but is not a bad army for a beginner. They have light and heavy cavalry, light infantry, line infantry, grenadiers (but no Guard – there was a fear of having a Guard in the Austrian circles), Grenzers, Freicorps, you name it.

Trying to find images for the Austrians has become easier but for a recent computer game I just finished working on it was a difficult hunt.

Bill Rawkins has a good e-book on the Austrian army. Check out all of his books here:

link

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.