Art | 29 Oct 2017 7:09 a.m. PST |
G'Day Gents, How do all of you form your Austrian Grenadiers, in a non-historical game? 1…Have a fixed number of figures for an Austrian Grenadier Battalion without using the Jung-Grenadieren (Young Grenadiers) which wore infantry headwears? 2…Using the number of line battalions as your starting point, you use the formula of two grenadier companies per battalion and then form the Austrian Grenadier battalions? 3… In 1805 the grenadier battalions were 4 companies each. Two companies were called Alt-Grenadieren (Old Grenadiers) and wore fur-caps, and two companies were Jung-Grenadieren (Young Grenadiers) and wore infantry headwears. In 1809 Austria had : - 19 grenadier battalions [6 companies each] - 2 battalions [4 companies each] In 1813 : - 15 grenadier battalions [6 companies each] - 6 battalions [4 companies each] 4…is there another option? Best Regards Art |
von Winterfeldt | 29 Oct 2017 11:33 a.m. PST |
I still use original Grenadier batallions which existed for the designated campaign – I purley decide what battalion I use for the facing colours – like for my Austrian – French Revolution period – I picked von Zschock – made from IR 16 – violett facings, IR – 27 emperor's yellow and IR 45 – crimson, so I have withing one battalion three different facings url=https://postimages.org/]
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Art | 29 Oct 2017 12:14 p.m. PST |
G'Day In your opinion for 1805: For an Austrian Grenadier Battalion, when in column are the Jung-Grenadieren (Young Grenadiers) the last two companies in the formation? Do the Jung-Grenadieren look like line Austrians? Best Regards Art |
Prince of Essling | 29 Oct 2017 12:18 p.m. PST |
Use historical as like vW I like a mix…. Here is a list: Grenadier Battalions (commander's name followed by numbers of the regiments that supplied the troops) Battalions in 1793 Nimpsch 1/12/40 Bender 7/20/56 Beust 8/22/29 Bardodetzky 2/32/34 Morczin 19/37/53 Lowen 33/39/52 Rouviere 31/51 St. Julien 3/4/46 Keating 14/50/59 Burger 23/24/49 Zscheck 16/27/45 Redel 13/26/43 Wollust 44/48 Rousseau 9/30/55 De Briey 38/58 Battalions in 1799 Morovitz 1/7/12 Papp 2/31/60 Eichler 3/35/50 Zuchari 4/16/23 Piret 8/44/46 Rosenhayn / Wouvremanns 9/30/58 Weber 10/18/36 Riese / Weissenwolf 11/15/47 Czerwenka / Kleinmayer 13/14/43 Battalions in 1800 Paar 24/28/45 Schiaffinati 26/40/59 Kleinmayer 13/14/43 Weber 10/18/36 St. Julien 17/27/57 Khevenhuller 4/16/23 Pieret 8/44/46 Pertusi 19/34/39 Perss 32/48/53 Gorschen 33/52 (Joined by IR63 from mid-1800) Weissenwolf 11/15/47 Battalions in 1809 Hohenlohe/Hromada – 1, 29, 38 Hahn/Habinay -2, 33, 39 Bissingen 3, 50, 58 Scovaud 4, 49, 63 Stark/Demontant 7, 18, 21 Mayblumel/Trenck/Locher 8, 22, 60 Peccaduc/Legrand 9, 55, 56 Wienawski/Frisch 10, 11, 47 Cappy/Oklopsia 12, 20, 23 Puteany/Jambline 14, 45, 59 Nissel/Berger 15, 28, 57 Salomon/Welsperg 16, 26, 27 Gregory 17, 36, 42 Janusch/Gersanich 19, 52, 61 Brzezinsky 24, 30, 41 Leiningen 25, 35, 54 Scharlach/Purcell 31, 32, 51 Kirchenbetter 34, 37, 48 Muhlen/Zetlar 53, 62 Albeck/Chimani 13, 43 Hauger/Portner 40, 44, 46 Battalions in 1813-15 Frisch 1, 12, 57 Krahmer/Lanyi/Barthelemy 2, 19, 33 Scovaud/Salis/Erdman/de Best 3, 4, 63 Demontant/Berger/Moese 7, 20, 56 Locher/Possman/Jurissich/ 8, 22 Portner/Majus 9, 24, 44 Hromada/Siegler 10, 29, 40 Leiningen/Fischer/Haller 11, 25, 54 Piret 13, 38 Puteany/Bubna 14, 49, 59 Berger 15, 28, 47 Welsperg 16, 26, 27 Oklopsia/Meinders/Oklopsia 17, 18, 21 Veyder 23, 43 Brzezinsky/Obermayer/Storr 30, 41, 58 Purcell – 31, 51 Habinay/Kauffmann 32, 39 Kirschenbetter/Mazur/Czarnotzay/Jarossy 34, 37, 60 Georgy/Rueber/Call/Schussmann 35, 36, 42 Gersanich/Dressery/Faber 48, 52 Chimani/Eltz/Ghequier 53, 61, 62
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von Winterfeldt | 29 Oct 2017 1:42 p.m. PST |
The Jung Grenadiere look indeed like Austrians – in case of 1805 I assume they still did wear their fusilier (helmet, no grenadier sabres) uniform – and indeed yes 4 companies, two Old Grenadier and two Jung Grenadier uniforms @ Prince of Essling Very usefull, thanks |
Markconz | 29 Oct 2017 3:05 p.m. PST |
Great looking Grenadiers von W! |
4th Cuirassier | 30 Oct 2017 3:54 a.m. PST |
@ Prince of Essling Thanks, that's a really useful list. I had seen that somewhere else before, but I couldn't remember where it was. My Austrian "army" is based around three regiments plus converged grenadiers. I have taken your list and swapped the numbers for the parent unit facing colours: Battalions in 1793 Nimpsch: dark red / dark brown / crimson Bender: dark blue / crab red / steel green Beust: poppy red / emperor / pale blue Bardodetzky: emperor / light blue / madder red Morczin: light blue / poppy red / dark red Lowen: dark blue / poppy red / dark red Rouviere: emperor / dark blue St. Julien: light blue / light blue / dark blue Keating: black / violet / orange Burger: poppy red / dark blue / pike grey Zscheck: violet / emperor / poppy red Redel: grass green / parrot green / yellow Wollust: madder red / steel green Rousseau: apple green / pike grey / pale blue De Briey: rose pink / black Battalions in 1799 Morovitz: dark red / dark blue / dark brown Papp: emperor / emperor / steel green Eichler: light blue / crab red / violet Zuchari: light blue / violet / poppy red Piret: poppy red / madder red / dark blue Rosenhayn/Wouvremanns: apple green / pike grey / black Weber: parrot green / dark red / mauve Riese/Weissenwolf: pink / madder red / steel green Czerwenka/Kleinmayer: grass green / black / yellow Battalions in 1800 Paar: dark blue / grass green / poppy red Schiaffinati: parrot green / crimson / orange Kleinmayer: grass green / black / yellow Weber: parrot green / dark red / mauve St. Julien: light brown / emperor / mauve Khevenhuller: light blue / violet / poppy red Pieret: poppy red / madder red / dark blue Pertusi: light blue / madder red / poppy red Perss: light blue / steel green / dark red Gorschen: dark blue / dark red / light brown Weissenwolf: pink / madder red / steel green Battalions in 1809 Hohenlohe/Hromada: dark red / pale blue / rose pink Hahn/Habinay: emperor / dark blue / poppy red Bissingen: light blue / violet / black Scovaud: light blue / pike grey / light brown Stark/Demontant: dark blue / dark red / sea green Mayblumel/Trenck/Locher: poppy red / emperor / steel green Peccaduc/Legrand: apple green / pale blue / steel green Wienawski/Frisch/Frisch: parrot green / pink / steel green Cappy/Oklopsia/Oklopsia: dark brown / crab red / poppy red Puteany/Jambline/Jambline: black / poppy red / orange Nissel/Berger/Berger: madder red / grass green / mauve Salomon/Welsperg/Welsperg: violet / parrot green / emperor Gregory: light brown / mauve / orange Janusch/Gersanich: light blue / dark red / grass green Brzezinsky: dark blue / pike grey / yellow Leiningen/: sea green / crab red / apple green Scharlach/Purcell: emperor / light blue / dark blue Kirchenbetter/: madder red / poppy red / steel green Muhlen/Zetlar: dark red / grass green Albeck/Chimani: grass green / yellow Hauger/Portner: crimson / madder red / dark blue Battalions in 1813-15 Krahmer/Lanyi/Barthelemy: emperor / light blue / dark blue Scovaud/Salis/Erdman/de Best: light blue / light blue / light brown Demontant/Berger/Moese: dark blue / crab red / steel green Locher/Possman/Jurissich: poppy red / emperor Portner/Majus: apple green / dark blue / madder red Hromada/Siegler: parrot green / pale blue / crimson Leiningen/Fischer/Haller: pink / sea green / apple green Piret: grass green / rose pink Puteany/Bubna: black / pike grey / orange Berger: madder red / grass green / steel green Welsberg: violet / parrot green / emperor Oklopsia/Meinders/Oklopsia: light brown / dark red / sea green Veyder: poppy red / yellow Brzezinsky/Obermayer/Storr: pike grey / yellow / black Purcell: emperor / dark blue Habinay/Kauffmann: light blue / poppy red Kirschenbetter/Mazur/Czarnotzay/Jarossy: madder red / poppy red / steel green Georgy/Rueber/Call/Schussmann: crab red / mauve / orange Gersanich/Dressery/Faber: steel green / dark red Chimani/Eltz/Ghequier: dark red / grass green / grass green This may assist anyone who like me is inclined to pick an actual grenadier unit and then paint up the corresponding parent regiments as well. Do we take it that the dates denote when the units were rejigged, i.e. the groupings for 1800 would be correct for 1805, those for 1809 good for 1812, and so on? |
Prince of Essling | 30 Oct 2017 4:15 a.m. PST |
4th Cuirassier Good move. The above grouping does not apply for 1805 – as I understand the grenadiers formed a battalion within their own regiments. The infantry regiments were reorganised by "the unfortunate" Mack into 1 grenadier and 4 fusilier battalions. Each battalion of 4 companies and a nominal strength of 160 men per company. I will review my books etc to see if I have other lists including for 1812. |
4th Cuirassier | 30 Oct 2017 4:41 a.m. PST |
@ P of E Good point, forgot about that for 1805. |
von Winterfeldt | 30 Oct 2017 5:15 a.m. PST |
yes no mix of facing colours in the 1805 – organisation for grenadiers, but on the other hand a mix in headdress. |
Prince of Essling | 30 Oct 2017 6:23 a.m. PST |
1812 from the Militδr-Almanach 22. (Wien, 1812) spellings as per original… Berger(Zach/Frelich/Vogelsang) Oklopsia (Reuss-Plauen/Reuss-Greitz/A. Gyulay) Leiningen (EH Rainer/De Vaux/Froon) Georgy (Argenteau/Kollowrat/Erbach) Salis (EH Karl/Deutschmeister/Bianchi) Puteani (EH Rudolph/Kerpen/Jordis) Kramer (Hiller/Allvintzi/Colloredo-Mansf.) Possman (EH Ludw./Coburg) Hromada (Reisky/Lindenau/Wurtemberg) Frisch (Kaiser/Al. Lichtenstein/Jos. Colloredo) Dumontant (Wurzburg/Kaunitz/Wenz. Colloredo) Dressery (Simbschen/EH Franz Karl) Walsperg (Lusignan/Hohenlohe Bart./Chasteler) Przazinsky (Ligne/Kottulinsky/Beaulieu) Kirchbetter (Davidovitz/Weidenfelf/Ign. Gyulay) Portner (Czartorysky/Strauch/Bellegarde) Habinay (Esterhazy/Duka) Chimani (Jellachich/Saint-Julien/Wacquant) Purcell (Benyovsky/Spleny) |
davbenbak | 30 Oct 2017 7:21 a.m. PST |
Converged Grenadier battalions were the same size as the line battalions right? |
4th Cuirassier | 30 Oct 2017 8:03 a.m. PST |
The advantage of basing by company is that you can do either organisation just by reallocating companies. Each Austrian regiment had 18 fusilier and two grenadier companies. So you can either have three six-company battalions, with the grenadiers converged with those of one or two other regiments; or four four-company fusilier battalions, with a fifth battalion comprising the grenadiers plus the odd two companies of fusiliers. IIRC the fusilier battalions then got a 3-pounder apiece and the grenadiers got two, although these were usually operated as a 6-gun battery. Does anyone know what they did where a battalion had 3 x 6-pounder in place of 6 x 3-pounder? |
Le Breton | 30 Oct 2017 9:43 a.m. PST |
I love this forum! I know nothing about the details of the Austrian army as I play French and Russians, but this thread is fascinating and filled with great information. Thank you all! |
Sir Able Brush | 30 Oct 2017 10:41 a.m. PST |
I agree with Le Breton – brilliant information |
4th Cuirassier | 30 Oct 2017 12:46 p.m. PST |
While we're on Austrian infantry maybe someone can clear something up. My understanding that Hungarian regiments were from Hungary and all others were German. So does a regiment from Transylvania (which has Hungary between it and anywhere "German") count as German? Really? I ask because on the above basis, it looks like only about 1 in 4 or 5 infantry regiments were Hungarian. And an Austrian army needs light blue trousers. Lots of them. |
Prince of Essling | 30 Oct 2017 1:45 p.m. PST |
Transylvania counts as "Hungarian" see extract from Enrico Acerbi's excellent contribution on the Austrian Army 1805-1809 (3rd link in particular): link link link |
Art | 30 Oct 2017 3:02 p.m. PST |
G'Day Gents Does anyone have a list of which regiments were German and which were Hungarian… I know that in 1805 ten regiments (9th, 20th, 24th, 30th, 38th, 41st, 44th, 55th, 58th, 63rd) were recruited of Galician Poles and Ukrainians. It would seem that Galicia was Polish territory for several centuries before the Austrians occupied it, and with that said, all these Polish units were dressed like 'German' infantry. Best Regards Art |
4th Cuirassier | 30 Oct 2017 3:51 p.m. PST |
@ Art Sure, here you go: Number / Name / Nation/Province / Trousers / Facings / Buttons
IR 1 / Kaiser Franz / Moravia / white / dark red / yellow IR 2* / Erz. Ferdinand / Hungary / light blue / emperor / yellow IR 3 / Erz. Carl / Lower Austria / white / light blue / white IR 4 / Hoch und Deutchmeister / Lower Austria / white / light blue / yellow IR 5 / / na / white / dark blue ** / white IR 6 / / na / white / black** / white IR 7 / Freiherr von Schrφder / Moravia / white / dark blue** / white IR 8* / Freiherr von Huff / Moravia / white / poppy red** / yellow IR 9* / Graf Clerfayt / Walloon / white / apple green / yellow IR 10 / Freiherr von Keuhll / Bohemia / white / parrot green / white IR 11 / Michael, Graf Wallis / Bohemia / white / pink** / white IR 12 / Marchese Manfreddini / Moravia / white / dark brown / yellow IR 13 / Freiherr Reisky / Inner Austria / white / grass green / yellow IR 14 / Freiherr von Klebeck / Upper Austria / white / black / yellow IR 15 / Graf D'Alton / Bohemia / white / madder red / yellow IR 16 / Freiherr Terzi / Styria / white / violet** / yellow IR 17 / Wilhelm Hohenlohe / Bohemia / white / light brown / white IR 18 / Graf Stuart / Bohemia / white / dark red / white IR 19 / Alvinczy / Hungary / light blue / light blue / white IR 20 / Graf Kaunitz-Rietberg / Silesia / white / crab red / white IR 21 / Gemmingen / Bohemia / white / sea green / yellow IR 22 / Graf Lacy / Illyria / white / emperor / white IR 23 / Von Toscana / Lower Austria / white / poppy red / white IR 24 / Freiherr Preiss / Lower Austria / white / dark blue / white IR 25 / Graf Brechainville / Bohemia / white / sea green / white IR 26 / Freiherr Wilhelm Shroder / Carinthia / white / parrot green / yellow IR 27 / Graf Strassoldo / Styria / white / emperor / yellow IR 28 / Graf Wartensleben / Bohemia / white / grass green / white IR 29 / Graf Oliver Wallis / Moravia / white / pale blue / white IR 30 / Prinz de Ligne / Walloon / white / pike grey / yellow IR 31 / Benjowsky / Transylvania / white / emperor / white IR 32 / Graf Sam Gyulai / Hungary / light blue / light blue / yellow IR 33 / Graf Sztaray / Hungary / light blue / dark blue / white IR 34 / Anton Esterhazy / Hungary / light blue / madder red / white IR 35 / Freiherr Wenkheim / Bohemia / white / crab red / yellow IR 36 / Furstenburg / Bohemia / white / mauve / white IR 37 / Freiherr De Vin / Hungary / light blue / poppy red / yellow IR 38 / FML Ferdinand-August, Herzog von Wurttemberg / Walloon / white / rose pink / yellow IR 39 / Thomas Nadasdy / Hungary / light blue / poppy red / white IR 40 / Graf Joseph Mittrowsky / Moravia / white / crimson** / white IR 41 / Freiherr Bender / Galicia / white / yellow / white IR 42 / Graf Erbach / Bohemia / white / orange / white IR 43 / Graf Thurn / Carinthia / white / yellow** / yellow IR 44 / Graf Belgiojoso / Italy / white / madder red / white IR 45 / Freiherr Latterman / Lower Austria / white / poppy red / yellow IR 46 / Freiherr Neugebauer / Tyrolia / white / dark blue / yellow IR 47 / Graf Fraz Kinsky / Bohemia / white / steel green / white IR 48 / Vukassovich / Hungary / light blue / steel green / yellow IR 49 / Graf Pellegrini / Lower Austria / white / pike grey / white IR 50 / Graf Stain / Upper Austria / white / violet / white IR 51 / Freiherr Splenyi / Transylvania / white / dark blue / yellow IR 52 / Erz. Anton Victor / Hungary / light blue / dark red / yellow IR 53 / Johan Jellacic / Slavonia / white / dark red / white IR 54 / Graf Callenberg / Bohemia / white / apple green / white IR 55 / Graf Murray / Walloon / white / pale blue / yellow IR 56 / Graf Wenzel Colloredo / Moravia / white / steel green / yellow IR 57 / Graf Joseph Colloredo / Bohemia / white / mauve / yellow IR 58 / Freiherr Beaulieu / Walloon / white / black / white IR 59 / Jordis / Upper Austria / white / orange / yellow IR 60 / FZM Ignaz, Graf Gyulai / Hungary / light blue / steel green / white IR 61 / St Julien / Hungary / light blue / grass green / yellow IR 62 / Franz Jellacic / Hungary / light blue / grass green / white IR 63 / Erz. Joseph Franz / Walloon / white / light brown / yellow IR 64 / Chasteler / na / white / black / yellow Warning: I've described as "Hungary" only those explicitly stated as "Hungary" in my source (Rawkins). Those get their trouser colour given as "light blue" and all others default to "white", the German colour. It seems from Prince of Essling's info that this is a generalisation too far and that Transylvania at least which is modern Romania would count as Hungarian. I'm struggling a bit with Slavonia and Illyria being "German" just off the geography, and as for IR44, well, I give up :-) I dunno what the *s mean any more and when I try to remove them Excel blanks the whole cell [shrug] Better information welcome! |
Prince of Essling | 30 Oct 2017 4:04 p.m. PST |
See chart at Napoleonistyka link Uniforms of Austrian Line Infantry ~ post 1798 ~ which has Regiment (nationality) Breeches Coat Facings & Buttons |
4th Cuirassier | 30 Oct 2017 4:21 p.m. PST |
The Napoleon Series also has a list link |
von Winterfeldt | 30 Oct 2017 11:36 p.m. PST |
I really recommend for all those interested people to go to napoleon-series.org and look up the articles of Encrico Acerbi who discusses all those questions in great detail, like a grenadier company was usually weaker than a fusilier company. |
Supercilius Maximus | 31 Oct 2017 3:22 a.m. PST |
Warning: I've described as "Hungary" only those explicitly stated as "Hungary" in my source (Rawkins). Those get their trouser colour given as "light blue" and all others default to "white", the German colour.It seems from Prince of Essling's info that this is a generalisation too far and that Transylvania at least which is modern Romania would count as Hungarian. I'm struggling a bit with Slavonia and Illyria being "German" just off the geography, and as for IR44, well, I give up :-) This would seem to be borne out if you look at the make-up of the battalions. Hungarian companies are invariably grouped together into battalions, with the two Transylvanian regiments (31 and 51) and the Slovakian regiment (53) as the only "outsiders" included in such battalions. |
Ravenfeeder | 31 Oct 2017 8:28 a.m. PST |
The Croatian regiment (53 Jallacic) also counted as "Hungarian". Croatia being in union with the Kingdom of Hungary since the middle ages. |
Prince of Essling | 08 Nov 2017 1:24 p.m. PST |
@4th Cuirassier You asked about the position of attached artillery just found for 1769 whilst trawling through "Mitteilungen des k.u.k. Kriegsarchivs (Neue Folge, 1889" link See the diagram at page 92-2 unfortunately trying to embed it causes a problem (result is a diagram that is far too small. I understand the regulations were still in being for the Revolutionary/start of the Napoleonic Wars. |
von Winterfeldt | 08 Nov 2017 2:27 p.m. PST |
thanks for the link – in case I am not mistaken it is for the year 1792 and should fit till the new instructions of 1807 (more or less, there modfications always happened) |
Stoppage | 08 Nov 2017 3:21 p.m. PST |
@PrinceOfEssling Really interesting diagram! I'd like to think of Austrian grand divisions (dion) as equivalent to other country's half-battalions; the diagram shows the three-gun half-batteries interlining them. The regimental line with nine fusilier and two grenadier grand divisions has 20 artillery pieces. Using the half-battalion analogy that is equivalent to five-and-a-half British battalions with four (5-piece) artillery batteries. No wonder the French fought them in dispersed order. |
HappyHussar | 08 Nov 2017 3:49 p.m. PST |
The Austrian army is one of the more challenging armies to play with but is not a bad army for a beginner. They have light and heavy cavalry, light infantry, line infantry, grenadiers (but no Guard there was a fear of having a Guard in the Austrian circles), Grenzers, Freicorps, you name it. Trying to find images for the Austrians has become easier but for a recent computer game I just finished working on it was a difficult hunt. Bill Rawkins has a good e-book on the Austrian army. Check out all of his books here: link |