"If America's Civil War Were Today," Topic

Netanyahu's Israel Would Side With the South

There was a time when Israelis joked, half in hope and half in reservation, that this country was becoming the 51st Of the United States. No longer. Now it feels more like the 12th state – of the Confederacy

A somewhat eerie premonition made shortly before the recent violence broke out. Some of the parallels between the CSA and Israels current regime are interesting.

The rest of the Haaretz article here:

link

Can't read it since it wants my email to read for free. But I'm suspicious of articles that make a controversial claim. Usually, such are so opinionated as to be worthless. I don't know the source at all, so maybe I'm wrong?

Sounds like modern politics on the wrong board.

Sounds like modern politics on the wrong board.

Oh, did you read the article? It talks quite a bit about the CSA and several Civil War issues and personalities.

1) It's not an article, it's an opinion piece
2) Considering those murdered by the terrorist scum of Hamas haven't all been buried I find the idea of using this period to push anti-Israel propaganda distasteful.

+1 Dn Jackson

same same Dn Jackson. Very distasteful.

Considering those murdered by the terrorist scum of Hamas haven't all been buried I find the idea of using this period to push anti-Israel propaganda distasteful.

Interesting. What parts do you think are propaganda? You do realize the article is from a month ago; it's not like it was written this week?

You believe that comparing a government to the Confederacy is a net negative? That making parallels with Netanyahu's government is anti-Israel?

Further, and I dont see the article as anti-Israeli, do you believe that only pro-Israel articles can be posted and discussed?

"What parts do you think are propaganda?"

The fact you dug it up and posted it.

To go into a bit more detail…In today's world of limited intellect but unlimited self-righteousness, people manipulate history for their own political ends. People with no knowledge of historical nuance but control of higher education have decided the South was not only wrong, but evil. By equating Israel with the South, Israel is also evil. I will also note that at the pro-Hamas rally in New York a couple of days ago it was the Hamas supporters that were carrying swastikas.

"Further, and I dont see the article as anti-Israeli, do you believe that only pro-Israel articles can be posted and discussed?"

Nope, you can post whatever you want. And I can call out your pro-Hamas stuff. I think in the current conflict it's easy to tell good from evil. I'll stand firmly with the side that takes extra casualties to keep from causing civilian deaths and stand against the side that brags about beheading babies, raping women, targeting civilians, hiding behind civilians, and taking hostages.

Which side do you stand with?

I'm with Dn Jackson.

Perhaps an article comparing Crystal Night to the attack that started this latest round. Maybe explaining how the Nazis showed much more restraint would be appropriate.

I'm afraid Dave that Au pas de Charge has long ago lost any sense of nuance in his understanding of history.

I am waiting for him to now find parallels between Hamas and the Union government or Lincoln and the leader of Hamas, Ismail Haniyeh.

Perhaps an article comparing Crystal Night to the attack that started this latest round. Maybe explaining how the Nazis showed much more restraint would be appropriate.

Nice one! I just shows the absurdity of the original posting.

Guys, it opens with the claim of Israel as the 12th state of the CSA. This is a golden opportunity to totally hijack this into a "CSA Kentucky" or "CSA Missouri" argument, which is way more fun.

I just fled the ultramodern board where I felt things had gone off the rails. It felt like civil war – unfair, unbalanced and still pretty terrifying. Not because anyone supported Hamas, but because of the way that many of the sources and links were overtly political and/or not credible. They made it seem like some Americans supported the murderous actions of Hamas because they voiced concern over other issues in Gaza, like CD against Palestinians. It was one of the most strident threads I have ever seen here.

This post headline makes no sense to me. Most American Jewish citizens live in the blue states of the northeast. The unrest in Israel early this year over political trends there does not remotely suggest that Israel would side with a U.S. Confederate state, IMO, because that would mean turning against the United States. Against states like NY, with the largest Jewish population, and whose taxes help support less wealthy red states. Not that I think any red state would join a new Confederacy either.

I think most of the world is hoping for a reunited America, especially Israel. We can't even appropriate an aid package to them right now. If anyone needs some outrage, we are a leading supplier. But we have a job to do, lost in all the hot air and fake news. We may be stuck with it, but if we don't lead, the wrong people will.

APDC:"What parts do you think are propaganda?"

dn Jackson: The fact you dug it up and posted it.

The article existed whether or not I posted here and it wasn't obscure, it's one of Israel's oldest newspapers and written by a known Israeli-American journalist. It's about the Confederacy, the Civil War and this is a Forum on just that subject.

I take it you think that no one posts anything for discussion on here unless they endorse the viewpoint and contents, which would be your problem, not mine.

To go into a bit more detail…In today's world of limited intellect but unlimited self-righteousness, people manipulate history for their own political ends. People with no knowledge of historical nuance but control of higher education have decided the South was not only wrong, but evil. By equating Israel with the South, Israel is also evil.

I defer to your familiarity with the first part, I must point out, however, that you missed a great deal of nuance yourself here.

Missed nuance #1:The article speaks of Netanyahu's government, not the Israeli people.

Missed Nuance #2: If you read the article AND disagree with it, then why not set down why you disagree with it instead of launching that emotional screed?

Missed Nuance #3: If you think the Confederacy was a good thing, why do you care if you think the author and others think it is evil? Shouldn't this be an opportunity to explain the benefits of modelling a contemporary government on the Confederacy, pointing out how they are unlike or supporting where they are similar?

Or do you only "discuss" when you think the original topic is something you already agree with?

dn Jackson: I will also note that at the pro-Hamas rally in New York a couple of days ago it was the Hamas supporters that were carrying swastikas.

Although I'm not sure what this has to do with a discussion around Netanyahu's Government and the Confederacy, apparently you think the Swastika is also associated with the Confederacy?

APDC: "Further, and I dont see the article as anti-Israeli, do you believe that only pro-Israel articles can be posted and discussed?"

dn Jackson: Nope, you can post whatever you want. And I can call out your pro-Hamas stuff. I think in the current conflict it's easy to tell good from evil. I'll stand firmly with the side that takes extra casualties to keep from causing civilian deaths and stand against the side that brags about beheading babies, raping women, targeting civilians, hiding behind civilians, and taking hostages.

Missed nuance #4 Decapitating babies has been debunked as propaganda and abandoned by all responsible news channels.

Missed nuance #5: Netanyahu's government was one of the most pro-Hamas bodies in Israel. They promoted and legitimized them for years at the expense of the Palestinian Authority and they allowed funding to reach them in Gaza from outside sources.

Missed Nuance #6: The IDF does not incur extra casualties to avoid causing civilian deaths; that is absurd.

For someone who concerns themselves with nuance you don't seem to be up to date on what's actually happening in the Middle East beyond an emotional outburst about good and evil. Frankly, until you get a handle on events, it's going to be hard to take seriously your ability to divine people's motives.

Although, one observation about your commentary demonstrates some irony concerning the article, and that's the idea that the Confederacy believed themselves an absolute good no matter what the criticisms and while they rejected the notion that their policies possessed any flaws, they were experts at identifying the lack of "nuance" in others. Thus, your myopic approach in this thread is quite fascinating.

dn Jackson: Which side do you stand with?

I had no desire to discuss Hamas, just a civil war topic. The article doesn't discuss Hamas and I don't think Hamas used it to justify their recent terrorist attacks. Unless, of course, you have proof that this six year old article was used by Hamas as a rallying cry to launch an attack?

Unfortunately, I don't think you even read the article but just reacted to the topic. If you had read it, you would see that Hamas is not referenced and that the author uses commentary from one of Netanyahu's ministers and current member of Likud's ultra-right Central Committee, Zalman Shoval, to support not only similarity to the Confederacy but enthusiastic identity with it. This was not the opinion of a fancy intellectual trying to tar (If you think association with the CSA is negative) Netanyahu's government with what liberals might consider an evil regime nor was it a criticism of either Israel or the Israeli government. Instead, the article is a showcasing of the Netanyahu government's own ideology.

You might think it is a positive or a negative for a modern government to identify with the CSA but please read the article before working yourself up with multiple false conclusions.

Curiously, the Israelis can discuss their own policies and criticize their own government even now during a crisis. In part this is because they have a broader approach to freedom of speech but also because they have an intellectual tradition of discussing controversial topics dispassionately. Maybe you should take a page out of the Israeli forum for idea exchange playbook?

This is too silly to bother with.

"Decapitating babies has been debunked as propaganda and abandoned by all responsible news channels."

No, it has not. It is inconclusive because only witness testimony has stated it happened. Let's assume you're right though. Since there is no question that the animals in Hamas killed babies, toddlers, women, and older children, does it matter?

"The IDF does not incur extra casualties to avoid causing civilian deaths; that is absurd."

No, it's a fact. When the Israelis went into the West Bank several years ago they went house to house and took out the terrorists in Jenin, (I believe), instead of flattening buildings and using airstrikes and artillery. They took far more casualties than they needed to because they wanted to avoid killing civilians as much as possible.

Au pas, your ignorance is showing. I'll also note that you didn't say who you'd stand with. In this conflict there is clearly a good side and an evil side and you're making excuses for the evil.

Another +1 for Dn Jackson.

+1 as well for Dn Jackson.

"Decapitating babies has been debunked as propaganda and abandoned by all responsible news channels."

No, it has not. It is inconclusive because only witness testimony has stated it happened. Let's assume you're right though. Since there is no question that the animals in Hamas killed babies, toddlers, women, and older children, does it matter?

It matters to the extent that you made a blanket accusation that opinions which consider the Confederacy evil lack nuance while you yourself apparently also lack nuance and additionally spread misinformation. Now you've let us all know that when you choose a side, you dont care whether the reporting is accurate or not.

Please explain how you came to believe that people should be scrupulously accurate about the CSA but it is alright for you to make things up about a group you dislike? Is that your approach to justice, that if you think you're dealing with a bad actor, you can throw in any old made up accusation as a fact?

"The IDF does not incur extra casualties to avoid causing civilian deaths; that is absurd."

No, it's a fact. When the Israelis went into the West Bank several years ago they went house to house and took out the terrorists in Jenin, (I believe), instead of flattening buildings and using airstrikes and artillery. They took far more casualties than they needed to because they wanted to avoid killing civilians as much as possible.

Complete and utter drivel not to mention inaccurate. You have no knowledge of the events and you are beholden to some oddly derived fantasy concerning Israeli Military tactics.

Au pas, your ignorance is showing. I'll also note that you didn't say who you'd stand with. In this conflict there is clearly a good side and an evil side and you're making excuses for the evil.

Neither the topic, the article nor myself brought up Hamas, you did. It discusses Netanyahu's government and how it in its own words, admires the Confederacy. Are you suggesting that Netanyahu's minister considers the Confederacy evil but still supports its policies?

I dont know why you cant read the article; it's not even a very long article. Further, why cant you have a discussion; I mean an actual discussion not these continual outburts? Is that what you think a discussion is, a series of fabricated, baseless accusations with demands to know which side someone is on?

If you are pro Confederate, why do you think that is a slight against either body? One would think someone who both liked the Confederacy and the Netanyahu government would be 100% enthusiastic about this article.

I mean I understand that for pro Confederates, this can be a difficult spot from the viewpoint of terrorist groups. After all, if there is a comparison to Hamas, the Confederacy is apt. The CSA was a large terrorist group with a vicious ideology. The only difference is it killed far more Americans than Hamas ever dreamed of. It also murdered men, women, children and old people; often mutilating them. By your own definition they should be categorized as evil but you dont seem to think it should be considered so. Are you then making apologies for the Confederacy? Do you stand with the CSA?

Well, I guess we all know who you stand with.

Dn Jackson 😉 +1. Harvard maybe? 🙂

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haaretz

That was pleasant…{sigh}…

Unh, it's just a form of projection. Some of these guys get upset because they think that because they never post things they dont already believe in, everyone else does the same. Let's keep the door open in hopes that they can sometimes discuss a topic dispassionately.

Personally, I think the potential discussion is fascinating. Here's a quote by Shoval:

"Moreover," Shoval continues, "the war was one of principles, a struggle between two basic political views: Is the U.S. a confederacy of sovereign states as the South maintained, or is it the union itself that is sovereign, with policy being formulated by the executive, legislative and judicial branches in Washington, D.C.?"

In this statement, Netanyahu's minister is completely in sync with the principles some Southern States declare for Confederate History Month.

And then he says this:

Referring to the Charlottesville, Virginia, "Unite the Right" violence, Shoval notes that "thousands of Jews fought in the ranks of the Southern army during the American Civil War. They even earned the friendship and support of Lee, as opposed to Gen. Ulysses S. Grant, the commander of the Northern army and later the 18th American president. Grant happened to be an anti-Semite who issued General Order No. 11, which expelled all Jews from the military district under his control in late 1862."

I think it is hardly a smear on Israel or of the Confederacy to showcase how they welcomed Jews and did not practice anti-semitism.

And then there is this:

In a statement which says more about Shoval, and Netanyahu's Israel, than it does about the flesh-and-blood Lee, Shoval declares: "Ironically, Lee was not at all a racist."

It's interesting. Was Lee a racist? When I say racist, I mean, of course, for the era that he lived in was he more racist than his peers?

Shoval cites as proof a letter Lee wrote to The New York Times two years before the Civil War, which implied that Lee might free his own slaves within five years.

It's interesting that Shoval is so well read on all things CSA; one has to wonder if he is a history buff?

Here is a further article about how the Israeli flag is now often flown alongside the Confederate battle flag and the reasons why:

link

It seems that Israeli identity with the Confederacy is stronger than first thought.

"I've always been proud of the fact that I come from the South," said O'Sullivan, who was born and raised in New Orleans and moved to Mississippi before making aliyah in 1981. "There's some kind of kinship between Israel and the Confederacy: Both are mired in self-pity, victimology and obsession with history."

link

Au pas de Charge, do you think Hamas is evil?

I think Bill would rather Hamas questions be on the Ultramodern board after the way the RE Lee question went.

A necessary follow up:

dn Jackson: I'll stand firmly with the side that takes extra casualties to keep from causing civilian deaths…

APDC: "The IDF does not incur extra casualties to avoid causing civilian deaths; that is absurd."

dn Jackson: No, it's a fact. When the Israelis went into the West Bank several years ago they went house to house and took out the terrorists in Jenin, (I believe), instead of flattening buildings and using airstrikes and artillery. They took far more casualties than they needed to because they wanted to avoid killing civilians as much as possible.

Au pas, your ignorance is showing. I'll also note that you didn't say who you'd stand with. In this conflict there is clearly a good side and an evil side and you're making excuses for the evil.

In the last 48 hours three escaping Israeli hostages were killed by the IDF even though they were shirtless, waving white flags with "SOS" written on them and speaking Hebrew.

Additionally, two women were killed in a Catholic church by IDF snipers.

Not to mention that during a terrorist attack in Jerusalem, an Israeli reservist took out the two terrorists and then when confronted by a 2nd reservist arriving at the scene, even after he threw his weapon down, announced that he was Israeli, threw his ID card in front of him and got on his knees with his arms in the air, the 2nd reservist shot him dead.

It sounds a lot like the IDF needs a tune up of their not targeting civilians policy.

Au pas de Charge, do you think that Hamas is evil?

Cleburne1863 could you give your defention (ie an act, a thing, an entity?)

Definition of what?

Cleburne

APDC moved his argument over here

Subject: [TMP] "Hamas vs Israel… again" Topic


TMP link

Well, there's Judah P. Benjamin. The south was quite tolerant of Jews ("Hebrews") who were welcomed within the highest levels of society. See Mary Chesnutt's diary for examples. And the first American president to have both a Roman Catholic and a Jew in his cabinet was Jefferson Davis.

That said, I think the OP is nonsense.

My Hebrew friend, Mem Cohen, has a son in the war. He is in John Chesnut's company. Cohen is a high name among the Jews: it means Aaron. She has long fits of silence, and is absent-minded. If she is suddenly roused, she is apt to say, with overflowing eyes and clasped hands, "If it please God to spare his life." Her daughter is the sweetest little thing. The son is the mother's idol. Mrs. Cohen was Miriam de Leon. I have known her intimately all my life.

Chesnut, Mary Boykin Miller . A Diary From Dixie (p. 47). HarperCollins Canada. Kindle Edition.

Mem Cohen, fresh from the hospital where she went with a beautiful Jewish friend. Rachel, as we will call her (be it her name or no), was put to feed a very weak patient. Mem noticed what a handsome fellow he was and how quiet and clean. She fancied by those tokens that he was a gentleman. In performance of her duties, the lovely young nurse leaned kindly over him and held the cup to his lips. When that ceremony was over and she had wiped his mouth, to her horror she felt a pair of by no means weak arms around her neck and a kiss upon her lips, which she thought strong, indeed. She did not say a word; she made no complaint. She slipped away from the hospital, and hereafter in her hospital work will minister at long range, no matter how weak and weary, sick and sore, the patient may be. "And," said Mem, "I thought he was a gentleman." "Well, a gentleman is a man, after all, and she ought not to have put those red lips of hers so near."

Chesnut, Mary Boykin Miller . A Diary From Dixie (p. 50). HarperCollins Canada. Kindle Edition.

"limited intellect but unlimited self-righteousness"

I shall certainly remember and steal that phrase!

Ridiculous thread.