"Hamas vs Israel... again" Topic

So Hamas are having another crack it. Somewhere between 2,800 – 5,000 rockets over the wire, ground attacks in over half a dozen locations. Apparently knocked out a Merkava already. Israel is mobilizing for war, rinse and repeat….

At least Iron Dome is looking like it's effective as ever.

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There is an Axis of Evil and that axis is composed of Iran, Russia, China and North Korea.

Subject: Emily Schrader – אמילי שריידר امیلی شریدر on X: "⚠️ GRAPHIC ⚠️ Palestinian terrorists capture body of an Israeli woman and cheer "Allah Akbar" while desecrating her body. A full scale attack on Israel this morning t.co/xV5g8eBLp8 / X


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Subject: Arun Gandhi 🇮🇳 on X: "Another female Israeli soldier captured by Hamas terrorist amidst the chants of Allah hu akbar. This cult is responsible for violence and terrorism. This will not end well for them #Israel is coming to hunt them down. #IsraelUnderAttack t.co/8NO1nmWfT7 / X


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Subject: Amigos Trader 🇧🇷🫂 on X: "Senas fortes 😔😔😔🚨🆘 Um massacre completo na estrada em algum lugar do "território de Israel", com um tanque Merkava 4 abandonado das FDI ao fundo. #word #paz #Palestine #Israel t.co/KTwX7eJBXT / X


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This discussion went well….. I wonder if any US politics arose here?

It looks like the Iranians are not happy with the latest positive developments between Israel and the Arab states as they appear to begin a new era. I was going to say the rise of Hamas goes all the way back to the Beirut disaster in
1983, but we should probably say it goes back centuries.

The Israeli ambassador says some parts of the dome were not prepared, which is why some strikes got through. The responses from around the region should give us some idea of how Iran is doing with its neighbors these days. How long before regime change comes to Iran?

Thanks 35th, hard to look at but we need to know.

I do not understand what Hamas thinks to gain other than some weird nihilist gotterdamerung? Israel is/should/and will react very strongly on this atrocity and degrade most of their assets and leadership. Much like Tet they may achieve some short term media gains among those inclined to sympathy for their ostensive "cause" but in reality this is not some oppressed religious thing but outright terrorism with no possible outcome other than chaos, death and destruction with by the time the dust settles on this, the vast majority of that death, destruction and chaos hitting their citizens. Maybe it is time for Israel to take the time, endure the misery of urban fighting and gut Hamas as fully as possible. Take Gaza, hunt down every Hamas weasel possible, get Egypt to seal that border( as they detest Hamas)and let a more rational Palestinian government (if such a thing can be found)take over.

Well, hell. This is going to be miserable. Israel cannot let this pass, even a little bit. I think Iran is counting on Israel's reaction to screw up any deal with the Saudis. And this strengthens Netanyahu's hand.

Tortorella – mainly just a joke over a typo I made in the thread title. Nothing too exciting, but clearly didn't go down well.

What they gain is rage and recruits. Anytime Israel kills Muslims during this war it creates rage against Israel. Any success Hamas can show during the fighting will gain them more recruits. Hamas remains relevant.

No problem Gunny…

+1 Grattan, this is the big issue with going after Hamas big time. They will make it a holy war like all the others before it and could grow even bigger. I think something has to be done about Iran as the sponsor of this war. But the Iranian people are suffering, and want regime change, don't want to starve them. . It's the leaders who are the issue.

"I do not understand what Hamas thinks to gain other than some weird nihilist gotterdamerung? "

Indeed, their goals defy rational analysis but are driven by the plans of their father: to kill, steal and destroy.

Old habits are hard to break … it seems. This took very long for this to be planned. No doubt Iran has been supporting Hamas for a very long time. Hezbollah is thinking about joining in as well. Iran is Shia, Hamas & Hezbollah[IIRC are Sunni?]. They all have one thing in common is their hatred for the Jews of Israel. Israel's population is 20% of other religions.

Note: the billions of $ the US has recently released to Iran has not been used for this war[yet?]. According in the US, it is supposed to be impossible/hard to access for things other than humanitarian needs, etc. We'll see …

This is the 50-year anniversary of the '73 Yom Kipper War. The Arabs like to make attacks on events like this.

Hamas has gunned down non-combatants/women & children. Directly, not CD. Dragging people out of their homes. And executing them, etc. As 35th OVI posted. Hamas is holding Israelis has hostages to make it harder for the IDF to counter-attack. The IDF version of Delta Force is probably going to have to go in to rescue those hostages. Many may die on all sides …

So, this makes this not just an attack but an islamic terrorist attack. Israel has said it is going to punish the Palestinians. Killing the Hamas leaders that did this, etc. They basically also said they will try to limit CD, but is won't be a priority.

This war will probably last many months. Many will die. Hatreds run deep in this region. War crimes are/will certainly occur.

The US has said it will support Israel. As this was an unprovoked terrorist attack.

The X factor is how the other Arab moslem nations will react. They may condemn these attacks ? I doubt they will send forces to join Hamas. And again what will Hezbollah do ?

I think this war will change somethings in that area. Like the '67 War did … But again many will die …

And once again this is said to be a US & IDF intel failure it appears … Hamas achieved total surprise …

@legion this should give you the answer you were asking for.

Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Iran say Israel has only itself to blame for Hamas attacks

"The Ministry of Foreign Affairs holds Israel alone responsible for the current escalation due to this ongoing violations of the rights of the Palestinian people, the latest of which is the repeated raids on the blessed Al-Aqsa Mosque under of the protection of Israeli police," the ministry said in a statement." 5 hours ago

Thanks ! No real surprise … All being moslem nations again, they all have various levels of hatred for the Jews. That has been made clear again. Will moslems living in France, the UK, etc. attack and kill Jews there as in the past ?

The Taliban it has been reported they want to join Hamas. In killing Israelis …

Hmmm … what will ISIS do ?

Again … Will Hezbollah add to the Arab Forces attacking Israel ?

As with the Ukraine, a sovereign state is attacked in force. But this time it was by moslem terrorists.

It looks like the Iranians are not happy with the latest positive developments between Israel and the Arab states as they appear to begin a new era.

But – we just paid Iran $6 USD Billion in ransom for 5 Americans, surely that would deter them from pushing their Hamas proxies to attack Israel??

@35thOVI, the video link shows someone who looks more North African or perhaps Sudanese hauling the poor young woman from the vehicle. Truly an international terror group now, eh? God save her and may she be rescued soon.

The Saudi thing is interesting as they were, as has been mentioned, allegedly on the verge of normalizing relations with Israel. I believe a salient message to all is that the Saudi's are friends to anyone only to the extent that it provides a perceived benefit to MBS.

The Taliban and Qatar like to make sympathetic noises but have their own issues and virtually no interest in actual help. The Taliban are broke and engaged in low intensity skirmishing with Iran and Qatar with the largest US base in the region and a fear of Iran will restrict themselves to pearl clutching along with the major Arab countries. ISIS is a spent force hiding in holes in the ground in Syria. ISIS lost two senior leaders to US capture about 10 days ago and remains less organized than a colony of blue-green algae.

Hezbollah as a 75-80% owned subsidiary of Iran has the capacity to be a problem but Israel will prevail and I doubt they want to be on the receiving end of a really really mad Israel on the same basis as the US post-Pearl Harbor or an Israel much angrier than post Yom Kippur War where the focus was military, not civilians.

Will moslems living in France, the UK, etc. attack

Some, typically isolated radical young males may, but 99.9% never have and will be appalled. Historically any attacks will more likely be aimed at the generic populace as detailed targeted planning while occurring occasionally, is generally not a strong suit for the young, radical and impulsive. Flailing about with a knife in public or driving a vehicle into a crowd would seem more likely if anything occurs. This attack on Israeli civilians may be so blatantly terrorism as to remove some motivation unless Gaza gets paved.

Irans oil exports alone are worth 20x 6 billion annually,and thats not their whole economy. I don't get how the ransom money deters anything. These people are willing to kill themselves to fight us. This attack has been planned and been coming for a while, very coordinated, new tactics that required serious training and stockpiling logistically.

35th, which country put out that press release? Iran is being strategic,trying to wreck any positive arrangements between the Saudis and Israel.

At this point, it's hard to think of an Israeli response to the Palestinians that would earn my disapproval. It's long past time that the Thomas Schelling nonsense got tossed out the window, and the civilized peoples visit the uncivilized with responses that are effective, rather than just "proportionate."

@Tort I believe the quote was Qutari

"The Qatari Foreign Ministry also blamed Israel for the violence."

"The Ministry of Foreign Affairs holds Israel alone responsible for the current escalation due to this ongoing violations of the rights of the Palestinian people, the latest of which is the repeated raids on the blessed Al-Aqsa Mosque under of the protection of Israeli police,"

Unsurprising. Perhaps the Israelis will at some point realize that they will no longer need to raid the Al Aqsa or the Dome of the Rock (or endure rocks or gunfire from their inmates) if they are reduced to the dimensions of a layer of pavement. If they do, it won't be because the Palestinians conducted themselves in scrupulous accord with centuries of accepted international practice in distinguishing combatants and non-combatants.

Honestly, the Palestinians should be taken at their word, where their intentions are concerned, and treated accordingly. They are still alive because Israel has behaved with restraint in the face of unbelievable provocation. That needs to change.

Unless the Palestinian Authority on the West Bank feels an urgency to jump in there for stupid brownie points with the dumber radical elements there, I expect this to be Israel versus Hamas ( and maybe Hezbollah if they go full moron) but this is a different level and Israel is way past angry as this is essentially their 9/11.

Hamas is going to get gutted and any party trying to get in the way of that pay back is going to simply join the grist in the mill.

Whilst attention is on Gaza it is not on Ukraine. Iran is shifting western focus from its Russian ally.

The only thing which will save Gaza now is Israeli restraint. I have to wonder if the Israelis will also strike back at Tehran.

It doesn't seem like Netanyahu has any interest in anything resembling restraint. I dont think the inevitable hand wringing over the upcoming Palestinian body count is going to slow Israel's retribution this time.

I fear Hamas may come to regret their invocation of Al Aqsa for this offensive. Netanyahu is in an ugly mood and Israel has lots of bulldozers. Things are unthinkable until someone decides to go ahead and think them.

Well, I for one agree with him. I hope the Israelis level the place. I don't fear that the Palestinians regret it: I HOPE they regret it. For two generations, they've led the world in new forms of terroristic outrage. It's past time they got they payback their political culture has earned them.

And while I'm not expecting it, it sure would be nice if the Quislings from the two American political parties for once didn't race to see who could be quickest to shovel our money into the gaping maw of the Palestinians. If they're picking through the ruins for food, they'll be a lot less likely to bother the neighbors.

"They are still alive because Israel has behaved with restraint in the face of unbelievable provocation. That needs to change."

Agreed!

Gaza should be leveled with no consideration for collateral, time for Israel to deliver an over-the-top response! By the time Israel is done the Palestinians should be on their knees screaming for mercy.

" I HOPE they regret it. For two generations,"

Something that makes them wet themselves every time they think about it.

Something to provoke an humanitarian boatlift, maybe to Turkey…

To the extent that not all Palestinians are terrorists, I feel sorry for what is about to happen. But this attack was far too organized and significant in scope and scale. Never again.

They'll never learn; this is just the latest in a series of outrages that have gone on for sixty-odd years. The Western strategy of appeasement in the face of outrage has only ever been interpreted as weakness, and that spawns imitators. Civilization has displayed too much mercy; it's time it showed its strength.

I hope the Israelis have the fortitude to completely ignore international pressure (especially from the clowns in the US State Department) and do what they need to do, for as long as they need to do it, as as ruthlessly as the need to do it. Godspeed.

I believe Israel may be so angry, as well they should, that a ground invasion into Gaza may be in the offing. Successive Israeli governments have been tempted but the cost to their troops of dense urban combat was viewed as politically infeasible. No longer is that the case and Hamas may have proven so barbarous as to make any Israeli retaking of Gaza popular internally and acceptable even if silently by the majority of the international community. I see no way this isn't a massive mistake by Hamas that may result in their being hunted to extinction. Israel will not wipe out Gaza but they will do what they must to end Hamas as a viable entity including Hamas "representatives" in the West suffering various sudden terminal events courtesy of the Mossad.

This is like 9/11 for Israel, 600+ dead, 2000+ wounded. Hostages take by Hamas including American-Israels. Iran gave rockets, etc. to Hamas. As they did with Hezbollah. They fired some rockets today from Lebanon.

Hope some of the hostages will be saved. This will almost guarantee the IDF will have to occupy the Gaza Strip. So many will die … with the bulk of them being Palestinian/Hamas + a few Hezbollah. The Israelis will suffer some losses, to add to the 600+. The Gaza Stripe is very built up so MOUT will occur. Which almost guarantees more dead.

Hamas terrorists murdered unarmed civilians, with rifles, etc. This is not CD, this execution of non-combatants. Which will only make the IDF more determined to eliminate with extreme prejudice Hamas. I don't think there will be too many Hamas POWs.

The IDF is reported to be sending 4 Armor/Mech Divs. into Gaza. The Palestinians/Hamas/Iran initiated this. Regardless, of the Israeli-Palestinian situation/problems which were ongoing. Israel was attacked, their people were executed, raped, women & children taken as hostages + many shot outright, war crimes being committed. The IDF will avenge all this. It won't be pretty …

The US will have to send the IDF more Patriot missiles.

How will Iran be punished ? Or will the USA leadership demonstrate weakness and let this go ?

Hamas has to be destroyed which is the IDF's reported goal …

US leadership is part of the reason why this happened. E.g., the A'stan debacle plus Russian invasion of Ukraine are some of the results of this weak leadership … And now the Iranian support of the Hamas invasion of Israel …

IMO in the end this may change the map of Israeli. And the face of the region.

"The Gaza Stripe is very built up so MOUT will occur"

I am hoping they will level every building instead of attempting to clear them. Block by block just pancake them with no consideration for collateral. Don't enter the tunnels, block them off and pump them full of smoke, CO2 or incendiary fuel devices. Drive the rats before them until they are all huddled in some large field begging for mercy attempting to hide behind their women and children like the vermin cowards they are. No Dunkirk for Hamas, no escape no redemption just death.

Mute anyone whining or mumbling incoherently about restraint or measured response this time, they are idiots and not smart enough to have an opinion.

American sickos on parade in NYC supporting Hamas.

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"American sickos on parade in NYC supporting Hamas"-

I notice a certain prevalent ethnicity in the crowd. I hope they are not tomorrows terrorists…

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Hamas zombies?

….and in London and in Berlin. The West has let them infest everywhere.

No telling how many terrorists Biden has allowed to cross into this country.

"The great risk would be , obviously , to jeopardize the hostages and so it's , probably, a no-no solution"

Israel has a policy they do not negotiate with terrorists. The hostages will be rescued / saved where possible but most likely sacrificed. Watch what happens when Israeli troops discover mutilated and tortured hostages…

"a very last attempt to negotiations"

Too late for that after this stunt by Hamas there will be no negotiations. If I was Israel I would use this massacre to settle the issue once and for all while world opinion will be on their side.

"The West has let them infest everywhere" Really? Then they sure are quiet where I live. Free speech can be hard to take. I don't have to listen those demonstrators however.

"Putin's charisma" may be going too far though.

Not buying it, he just another gangster.

The Ford battlegroup is on its way. That includes a cruiser and destroyers, all well armed to cover Hezbollah on Israel's flank. More air units are en route to our bases around the Middle East. Er…thanks Biden, since we don't have a full Congress. Other aid promised, including air defenses.

Intelligence missed all this, it seems. I, for one, always thought Israel was stellar at intel.

Israel supplied fuel and electricity to Gaza, and has now cut off both. In short order there will be no transportation in Gaza. No way to pump water or sewage. No hospitals. No way to refrigerate, prepare, or transport food. Even without any further action, military or otherwise, Gaza will become uninhabitable.

Maybe someday the Israelis can be convinced to resume electrical service and transport in fuel, maybe not, their call. The Israelis are certainly capable of enforcing a blockade to prevent anyone else from bringing in supplies, also their call.

Obviously, Hamas has no understanding of the concept of siege warfare.

Israel needs to resecure the border and insure no hostiles remain on the wrong side of the fence. In the meantime, careful, surgical strikes beed to be made against Hamas assets in Gaza.

Next, the world needs to compel Hamas to account for all the hostages they have seized and afford their home governments the opportunity to consult for their release. Non Israeli captives need a chance for their governments to arrange for their release. I fear we can anticipate Hamas to be as "understanding" as ever.

At some point this will grind to an impasse. Recall the shell game Hamas ran years ago over a single border guard they seized.

I can't see Israel conducting an invasion. Hamas has had years to prepare tank traps, ambush positions, sites for mines and IEDS, against just such an eventuality. I could see Israel taking the steps necessary against vital infrastructure to render Gaza uninhabitable. Ethnic cleansing by humanitarian catastrophe, but Netanyahu is in a position to thumb his nose at world opinion, especially if Hamas has refused to release non Israeli captives.

Egypt might allow Palestinians to evacuate, but they have less use for Hamas than Israel. More likely a massive boatlift, maybe led by Turkey.

Israel abandoned Gaza to the Palestinians in hopes of some security. This is why Palestinians can't have nice things.

Just in case you're wondering what kind of people the Palestinians are:

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Let that sink in: it wasn't an error: killing the innocent and the unarmed was their specific intent. They aren't soldiers; they're murderers. And a society that glorifies and encourages this kind of thing deserves no quarter.

If you have a subscription to WSJ you can read the article. I grabbed "times of Israel".

If true… how will Israel respond?

Subject: WSJ: Iran, Hezbollah helped Hamas plan multi-front attack on Israel | The Times of Israel


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"Ethnic cleansing by humanitarian catastrophe"

It will take time and the further away from the massacre time moves world opinion will change over the prolonged and unnecessary suffering of the poor Palestinians.

Blood is going to demand blood for an atrocity of this magnitude. The Israeli government needs to look strong competent and capable at a time when it clearly was not. It needs to look strong for its domestic audience and to leave no doubt in any country or terrorist group in the region they are not to be trifled with.

Well, turn off the water, and see what happens. No point in providing the basic needs of life for people who are killing you. That might accelerate that process a bit- and provide a salutary lesson.

Please let me know if anyone finds a go fund me for pro-Palestinian congresscritters who are interested in going to join Hamas in its fight. I can think of a few I would be only too happy to assist.

Dragon +1 … The IDF has to do what it will take to protect their people. They have "given peace a chance" one too many times. After this Hamas terrorist attack supported by the IRGC and the Iranian theocracy's leadership. Executing, murdering, raping, desecrating the dead i.e the mostly naked dead woman in the back of a Hamas pick-up truck. Being displayed like a hunting trophy by the terrorist. With the shouts of Allah Akbar! Turns out she was a German tourist. But none less the horrible …

As well as the taking of hostages, all of this makes this a heinous crime against humanity. They executed non-combatants directly targeting them. With the only reason was to spread terror. This type of act as I said only will incite the IDF to show little mercy on these terrorists. I see that as a given.

Plus of course American citizens were killed. So will there be any punitives by the US Gov't ? IIRC the current US gov't has been kissing Iran's almost as much as China's … Releasing all that $ recently which the current admin says Iran can't use it for anything but humanitarian aid. Even if the Ayatollah said they will use the money as they want.

Will the IDF do some sore of punitives against Iran ?

The IDF will have to occupy Gaza again. Once they clear Israel of the terrorists. They kill off as many of Hamas as possible. Then continue to hunt them down like vermin. Non-combatants will be killed. Hamas will hide behind civilians.

This will be fighting insurgents in a MOUT environment. Can be very costly as we know. At this time the IDF should have a marginal concern about CD. Hamas must be supported by some Palestinians in Gaza. An insurgency couldn't exist without some local support.

We have very, very poorly qualified elected & appointed officials currently who don't understand the reality of dealing with the likes of the Taliban, Iranians, the PRC/CCP, Vlad Putin, etc.

Choctaw +1 Yes, so far about 112 on the terrorist watch list were captured trying to cross the US gov't's dictated wide open border. How many were not caught ? How many of us my die because of this ? Were the ones caught sent to Gitmo.? Or to a $400 USD/night NYC hotel ?

There are even members of our elected officials in Congress who are supporting Palestine and in turn Hamas … Should they even still be in Congress ? Should they be censured so their only duty is to get coffee & pastries ? They are not qualified to be leaders but as they are activists and ideologues …

This is not a difference of opinion over EVs, fracking, etc. Don't they understand this is murder, rape, etc. Acts most heinous in nature …

Anyone I mean anyone who thinks the horror of Hamas and their Palestinian and Iranian supporters must be delusional. Similar to those that support, etc. what Putin did by invading the Ukraine.

There is no way to paint either of those acts as anything but completely wrong, inexcusable, heinous, horrible, medieval, etc.

Nine pound round +1 … As I said, an insurgency can't exist without some local support. Tacit or otherwise …

Legion, a couple of things. How did everybody miss the intel on such a big operation? Hang gliders need training. A lot of gear and logistics involved in this, long term planning, multiple launch sites. I know these @#$& are wise to electronic surveillance at this point. But Israel must have human sources throughout Gaza.

Second, the hostages. They will have them in their tunnels, which they can collapse. There will likely be a lot of street damage and fighting. What might it take to find them and get them back?

Yes, it appears it was an intel failure by both the US & IDF. There will be an investigation(s) no doubt. I'll be interested what the problems were. If they ever release the real findings.

Hostages to Hamas and their supporters are disposable. The tunnels could collapse, in the long run it won't matter to Hamas. They could use them as bargaining chips. Or if the IDF gets too close they just may kill them all. Demo the tunnel(s). If islamic terrorists die while killing infidels, they will go to paradise.

Again, as terrorists this attack was as much about terrorizing and revenge as anything else. If they think they will get any leverage with the hostages, they may try. But the IDF is very ed off. They will hunt these vermin down. But it will take time …

So, it will be very difficult to find these "POWs". They most certainly will be disbursed to different location. The IDF is going to have to go door to door, room to room, interrogate locals, use all types of high tech to locate these tunnels and POWs as well as old school boots on the ground searches. The US will most certainly help the IDF on this rescue mission. As 4 Americans were killed and many more are POWs. But I doubt the US will be involved near the front. Of course, who knows where the CIA and Mossad are right now.

This will take time and will not be easy. Plus, many on all sides will die … Just like in the Ukraine …