"The artillery in "De Bellis Napoleonicis v 2.1"." Topic

In "De Bellis Napoleonicis v 2.1" in "2.3.5 Artillery" it says: "This represents the Corps or Army Reserve or Horse Artillery Unit, each of up to 18 guns."

In my opinion, only represent the artillery by "the Corps or the Reserve Army or the Horse Artillery Unit", that is to say the one which is not 'divided' – unlike those which are done in the "Horse Foot and Guns Rules" is a very good idea because "At this scale artillery is difficult to represent without it "cluttering" the battlefield"…

This is the first big difference I've found between DBN and the "Horse Foot and Guns rules" and I find it really valid.

But with this system, before setting up a historical army, when you are passionate, you have to do historical research.

On the other hand, in DBN it is written in 2.6 "Due to all these factors, it was decided to incorporate divisional and lower level guns into the combat factors of line infantry units, known as the name 'muskets'."

Okay but this is only valid if each element of 'Muskets' integrates exactly the same number of artillery pieces of the same caliber etc…

To be fairer, it would have been necessary to add a variable combat factor to the 'Muskets' elements depending on the number and caliber of the artillery pieces supporting this or that 'Muskets' element…

Don't you have an idea?

Here's a start, if the combat factor of your artillery units is "3" for 18 pieces this means that a battery of 6 pieces would have a factor of "1".

Could we give an additional factor of +1 for each 'Musket' element supported by a Maximun of 6 artillery pieces or rather give a factor of -1 for an element of 'Musket' elements not supported by its divisional artillery which would have been detached etc…

I'd be careful equating "pieces." I suspect you'll find divisional and lower guns are, on average, less powerful than corps and army reserve guns.

You could place a 6-gun unit on a smaller frontage base behind the musket unit it supports.Perhaps say it cannot be separately targeted. See also the DBN optional rule for "battalion guns". From our experience DBN gives excellent fast games without the need for lots of figures or big tables.

The divisional artillery has nothing to do with the "Battalions Gun Batteries" on page 32 of DBN, it is much more powerful in number of guns and calibers and could be detached as to form the "large battery" at Waterloo for example…

In addition, counting it as such would clutter the table with artillery elements…

I am in favor of giving a negative factor to units that do not or no longer have their divisional artillery.

In any case, it is not normal for musket elements to have the same combat factors whether or not they are supported by their divisional artillery.

I think this gives way to much of an impact for battalion guns. As I noted before, a +/-1 is a very large factor in DBN combat. Play some games and see how much care must be taken in the use of Militia quality troops to get the best use out of them.

And Militia soaking up an an extra -1 would vaporise!

The effectiveness on guns in battle is not just measured by the pounds of lead they throw downfield in a given time. The noise factor is also quite important both for negtive morale effects on the opponents, and positive on the troops who are being supported.

I understand that this was a major factor in the French switching from 6-pdr to 8-pdr. The 6-pdrs did just fine at throwing lead, but no one could hear them firing over the general din of the musket fire and other guns and so their impact was greatly reduced.

The smaller the caliber and the smaller the battery, the the more greatly reduced the morale effect. Your thesis hinges on the presumption that battalion guns are noticeably more effective overall than filling the space with more muskets would be.

If you're passion for battalion guns needs to express on the table, rules set at a much lower level than DBN will bring more joy.

I do understand where Paskal is coming from, and it's important to note that he's not talking about battalion guns but rather the medium-caliber foot batteries (typically 6- to 8-pounders) that were part of divisions rather than corps- or army-level guns. DBN is not alone in "factoring out" these batteries, and indeed their inclusion in a game with "brigade" sized units would clog the table up something fierce. But how to represent their effect? Perhaps something like this:

(1) We continue to make the assumption that every infantry unit is accompanied by a similar proportion of this "divisional" artillery; if some infantry units on one or both sides are deemed to be supported by a significantly lesser proportion, give such units a -1 modifier for distant shooting as a _scenario_ rule.

(2) We further assume that divisional artillery's firepower is already factored into the short-range distant shooting value of the infantry units and doesn't need to be separately calculated and resolved. However, in addition, infantry units _in the open_ (not in woods, town, etc) are allowed to perform long-range distant shooting (same range as horse artillery). But because the unit's "slice" of divisional artillery represents fewer guns than corps artillery and also possibly less well-supplied with ammunition, change the combat outcomes so that simply beating the enemy's combat score has no effect and only a score doubling that of the enemy causes hits/drives back.

(The reason for only allowing infantry units in open terrain to fire at artillery range is that these divisional guns, unlike infantry skirmishers, depend as all artillery does on having open ground to deploy, clear fields of fire, etc.)

Admittedly this proposal does not allow in-game formation of grand batteries composed of divisional guns stripped from their parent divisions, but at least it does acknowledge that if we are assuming that infantry units also represent perhaps 6 to 8 six-pounders then they ought to be able to fire out to 800 or 900 meters, if the tactical situation permits.

Eumelus suggestion sounds eminently sensible.

@miniMo,

You don't understand anything, it's not about "Battalion Gun Batteries", but about divisional artillery which is not detached and if the "Battalion Gun Batteries" are counted as Militia, it's because these cannons were of weaker calibers and less well served!

What are you talking about ? The noise factor is also very important, both for its negative effects on enemy morale and for its positive effects on supported troops." There are no noise factors in DBN!?

What are you writing ? The French did not go from 6-pdr to 8-pdr, but unfortunately from 8-pdr to 6-pdr…

I have no passion for "Battalion Gun Batteries" which you constantly confuse with divisional artillery, but I believe that an infantry division which has retained its divisional battery(ies) has greater firepower.

@Eumelus

You understood me ! The problem is that all elements of Muskets(MS) have the same Basic Combat Factor

First, it is enough to divide the number of artillery pieces of the divisional artillery by the number of infantry elements constituting the division.

But the divisional artillery should not be represented on the table, to represent it, you would have to put a tiny marker on the Muskets (MS) element like a tiny cannonball.

However, for greater honesty, the fire of the divisional artillery must absolutely be resolved; it could be done with a factor of +1* per 6 pieces of artillery remaining with the division with the same range as horse artillery.

On the other hand, I don't see where in DBN where divisional artillery fire is already taken into account in the short-range fire value of infantry units?

*Indeed an FA artillery element has a factor of +3 for 18 real cannons and howitzers and as often the divisional artillery was the same artillery or the same caliber as the detached artillery, this does not pose a problem.

I look askance on any rule set that lumps division artillery in with infantry. The difference between 100 yard weapons and 1,000 yard weapons should be obvious. If division artillery didn't render some advantage to the division, literally every army on the continent would not have wasted the man power, horse flesh and industrial capability to make it.

Using the DBN system and based on Sott Bowden's work "Armies at WATERLOO", here is what the three armies of this battle will have respectively in terms of artillery units.

The Armée du Nord :

80 pieces below with the grand battery , all the rest being with the divisions or brigades to which they are assigned, apart from a Line horse company from the Imperial Guard Corps attachée au VI Army Corps.

From I Army Corps :
6 th Foot Artillery Regt., 20th company(Division Quiot)
6 th Foot Artillery Regt., 10th company(Division Donzelot)
6 th Foot Artillery Regt., 19th company(Division Marcognet)
6 th Foot Artillery Regt., 11th company*(Corps Artillery Reserve)

From II Army Corps :

2 nd Foot Artillery Regt., 7th company*(Corps Artillery Reserve)
From VI Army Corps :
8 th Foot Artillery Regt., 4th company*(Corps Artillery Reserve)

From the Imperial Guard :

Old Guard Foot Art.Regt., 1st company*
Old Guard Foot Art.Regt., 2nd company*
Old Guard Foot Art.Regt., 3rd company*
Old Guard Foot Art.Regt., 4 th company*

Initial composition of the grand battery totalled 80 pieces of ordnance.

* Indicates 12 – pounder artillery companies

The 6th Foot Artillery Regt., 10 th company, and the 6th Foot Artillery Regt., 19 th company were overrun and put out of commission during the charge of the Union Brigade.

The grand battery was thereafter reinforced by one company of horse artillery from Milhaud's IV Reserve Cavalry Corps (which one?

The 5th company of the 1st Horse Artillery Regiment or the 4th company of the 3rd Horse Artillery Regiment?)and by the four companies of the Old Guard Horse.

These 116 pieces of artillery give us in terms of DBN 6 unit of 18 pieces:

1 x FA (6th Foot Artillery Regt., 20th -10th and 19th companies)
1 x FA (6th Foot Artillery Regt., 11th company* – 2nd Foot Artillery Regt., 7th company* and 8th Foot Artillery Regt., 4th company*)
2 x FA Elite (Old Guard Foot Art. Regt., 1st -2 nd- 3rd and 4 th companies)
1 x HA Elite (Old Guard Horse Art.Regt., 1st -2 nd- 3rd and 4 th companies)
1 x HA (The company of horse artillery from Milhaud's IV Reserve Cavalry Corps and the line horse company from the Imperial Guard Corps attached to the VI Army Corps.)

In addition to the 116 pieces above, as the French cavalry was not accompanied by its divisional artillery in its charges, we can add the following:

I st Horse Artillery Regt., 2nd company (Jacquinot Cavalry Division)
4th Horse Artillery Regt., 2nd company (Piré Cavalry Division)
2nd Horse Artillery Regt., 4th company (Domon Cavalry Division)
I st Horse Artillery Regt., 3rd company (Subervie Cavalry Division)
2nd Horse Artillery Regt., 3rd Company (Lhéritier Cavalry Division)
2nd Horse Artillery Regt., 2nd company (Roussel d'Hurbal Cavalry Division)
1st Horse Artillery Regt., 5 th company (Wathier Cavalry Division)

Which gives us in terms of DBN 2 additional artillery units.

1 x HA (The I st Horse Artillery Regt., 2nd company (Jacquinot Cavalry Division), the 4 th Horse Artillery Regt., the 2nd company (Piré Cavalry Division), the 2 nd Horse Artillery Regt., 4 th company (Domon Cavalry Division) and the I st Horse Artillery Regt., 3rd company (Subervie Cavalry Division))

1 x HA (The 2nd Horse Artillery Regt., 3rd company (Lhéritier Cavalry Division), the 2nd Horse Artillery Regt., 2nd company (Roussel d'Hurbal Cavalry Division) and the I st Horse Artillery Regt., 5th company (Wathier Cavalry Division)).

* Indicates 12–pounder artillery companies

The Army of the Lower Rhine :

All the artillery of the Prussian army corps was combined into a single administrative corps of artillery park.

The commander of the artillery of each corps would then assign specific batteries for duty with certain maneuvrer elements.For example , if one infantry brigade was to defend a important sector, the corps artillery chief might assign as many as three batteries to the brigade.On the other hand, if a signifiant concentration of artillery was needed somewhere along the corps front , the artillery chief might retain most of the corps artillery batteries in the artillery reserve of the corps for deployment and operation under his direct supervision.

Thus on June 18, at Waterloo using the DBN system, the artillery of the Army of the Lower Rhine will only be represented by 5 batteries – or 40 pieces of artillery – all in the reserve of the IV Army Corps.

These 40 pieces of artillery give us in terms of DBN 2 unit of 18 pieces:

1 x HA (6-pdr.Foot Battery # 11 and 6-pdr. Horse Battery #11)
1 x FA ( 12- pdr.Foot Batteries # 3, 5 and 13)

The Army of the Netherlands :

This army had a maximum of only 67 pieces (plus rockets) neither "embrigadées" or "endivisionnées".

From the British Reserve Artillery :

Lt.Colonel Sir Hew D.Ross's Troop, Royal Horse Artillery ( 9 pdrs)
Major Georges Beane's Troop, Royal Horse Artillery ( 6 pdrs)
Horse Artillery Battery – Captain von Heinemann( 6 pdrs)
Foot Artillery Battery – Major von Moll( 6 pdrs)

From the Royal Horse Artillery of the Cavalry Corps :

Major Robert Bull's Troop,Royal Horse Artillery (Heavy Howitzers)
Lt. Colonel James Webber Smith's Troop, Royal Horse Artillery ( 6 pdrs)
Lt.Colonel Sir Robert Gardiner,K.C.B.,Troop,Royal Horse Artillery ( 6 pdrs)
Captain Edward C.Whinyates's Troop, Royal Horse Artillery ( 6 pdrs)
Captain Alexander C. Mercer's Troop, Royal Horse Artillery ( 9 pdrs)
Major William Norman Ramsay's Troop,Royal Horse Artillery ( 9 pdrs)

Dutch -Belgian Attached Horse Artillery :

One – half Horse Artillery Battery – Captain A.A. Petter ( 6 pdrs)
One – half Horse Artillery Battery – Captain A.R.A. Gey van Pittius ( 6 pdrs)

These 67 pieces of artillery give us in terms of DBN, 3 units of 18 pieces:

3 x HA ( British Reserve Artillery + Royal Horse Artillery of the Cavalry Corps + the Dutch – Belgian Attached Horse Artillery).

« Endivisionnée » artillery of The Army of the North:

IMPERIAL GUARD:
The Division of Grenadiers – Twelve 6 pounder guns and four 5 -1/2 inch howitzers.
The Division of Chasseurs – Twelve 6 pounder guns and four 5 -1/2 inch howitzers.
Young Guard Division – Twelve 6 pounder guns and four 5 -1/2 inch howitzers.
Imperial Guard Light Cavalry Division – Detached artillery.
Imperial Guard Heavy Cavalry Division – Detached artillery.

I ARMY CORP:
1st Infantry Division – Detached artillery.
2nd Infantry Division – Detached artillery.
3rd Infantry Division – Detached artillery.
4th Infantry Division – Six 6 pounder guns and two 5 -1/2 inch howitzers.
I st Cavalry Division – Detached artillery.

II ARMY CORPS:
5th Infantry Division – Six 6 pounder guns and two 5 -1/2 inch howitzers.
6th Infantry Division – Six 6 pounder guns and two 5 -1/2 inch howitzers.
9th Infantry Division – Six 6 pounder guns and two 5 -1/2 inch howitzers.
2nd Cavalry Division – Detached artillery.

III ARMY CORPS:
3rd Cavalry Division – Detached artillery.

VI ARMY CORPS:
19th Infantry Division – Six 6 pounder guns and two 5 -1/2 inch howitzers.
20th Infantry Division – Six 6 pounder guns and two 5 -1/2 inch howitzers.

I RESERVE CAVALRY CORPS:
5th Cavalry Division – Detached artillery.

III RESERVE CAVALRY CORPS:
11th Cavalry Division – Detached artillery.
12th Cavalry Division – Detached artillery.

IV RESERVE CAVALRY CORPS:
13th Cavalry Division – Detached artillery.
14th Cavalry Division – Detached artillery.

« Embrigadées » artillery of the Army of the Lower Rhine :

I ARMY CORPS:
1st Infantry Brigade – Twelve 6 pounder guns and four 7 – pounder howitzers.
1st Cavalry Brigade – Six 6 pounder guns and two 7 – pounder howitzers.

II ARMY CORPS:
5th Infantry Brigade – Six 6 pounder guns and two 7 – pounder howitzers.
7th Infantry Brigade – His artillery was not present at Waterloo.
8th Infantry Brigade – His artillery lost all his guns at Ligny.
2nd Cavalry Brigade – Six 6 pounder guns and two 7 – pounder howitzers.

IV ARMY CORPS:
13th Infantry Brigade – Six 6 pounder guns and two 7 – pounder howitzers.
14th Infantry Brigade – Six 6 pounder guns and two 7 – pounder howitzers.
15th Infantry Brigade – Six 6 pounder guns and two 7 – pounder howitzers.
16th Infantry Brigade- Six 6 pounder guns and two 7 – pounder howitzers.
1st Cavalry Brigade – Six 6 pounder guns and two 7 – pounder howitzers.
2nd Cavalry Brigade – Four 6 pounder guns and two 7 – pounder howitzers.*
3rd Cavalry Brigade – No artillery.

This brigade only had 6 pieces present at Waterloo as two guns were detached on June 17 withLt .colonel von Ledebur and part of the 10th Hussars; this detachement did not rejoin in time for Waterloo.

« Endivisionnée » artillery of the Army of the Netherlands :

I ARMY CORPS:
1st Infantry Division -Ten 9 pounder guns and two heavy 5 -1/2 inch howitzers.
3rd Infantry Division – Ten 9 pounder guns and two heavy 5 -1/2 inch howitzers.
2nd Dutch-Belgian Infantry Division – Eight 6 pounder guns and two 5 -1/2 inch howitzers.
3rd Dutch-Belgian Infantry Division – Twelve 6 pounder guns and four 5 -1/2 inch howitzers.

II ARMY CORPS:
2 nd Infantry Division -Ten 9 pounder guns and two heavy 5 -1/2 inch howitzers.
4 th Infantry Division – Five 9 pounder guns and one heavy 5 -1/2 inch howitzer.

ARMY RESERVE :
5 th Infantry Division – Five 9 pounder guns, five 6 pounder guns and two heavy 5 -1/2 inch howitzers.
6 th Infantry Division – Five 9 pounder guns and one heavy 5 -1/2 inch howitzer.
Brunswick Contingent – Detached artillery.

CAVALRY CORPS :
1 st Cavalry Brigade – No artillery.
2 nd Cavalry Brigade – No artillery.
3 rd Cavalry Brigade – No artillery.
4 th Cavalry Brigade – No artillery.
5 th Cavalry Brigade – No artillery.
6 th Cavalry Brigade – No artillery.
7 th Cavalry Brigade – No artillery.
Dutch-Belgian Cavalry Division – Detached artillery.

Interesting discussion.

Have to say, i've never really thought about it.

Kind Regards

J

I'm peeling "De Bellis Napoleonicis v 2.1" because I like this rule.

TMP link

TMP link

TMP link

To my question if in DBN, the areas given on page 11 for BUA and NLF are for 15mm or 25mm figurines, Alex replied last night:

"Hello Pascal
All distances quoted are for 15mm scale (see 1.4) Therefore with 25mm figures on a 60mm Frontage, BUA's would be approximately 160mm x 160mm and NLF's 120mm x 90mm.
However If I was using 25mm figures, my personal preference would be to go with a 80mm Frontage and double all quoted distances.

Alex"

In conclusion now with 25 mm figurines – 50 mm corresponds to 100 paces.

This modifies all our previous calculations!

Furthermore, after asking Alex the question, this also modifies the quantities of figurines on the bases, which suits me well :

So now on a base for 25 mm figurines we can stick on these larger bases:

- 2 – 5 figures on a "C-in-C" base instead of 2 – 4.
- 2 – 3 figures on a "Sub Commander" base instead of 1 – 2.
- 10 "muskets" figures instead of 8 per base.
- 8 "light infantry" figures instead of 6 per base.
- 4 "jagers" figures instead of 3 per base.
- 10 "Levee en masse" figures instead of 8 per base.
- 4 "Guerrillas" figures instead of 2-3 per base.
- 5 "Heavy Cavalry" figures instead of 4 per base.
- 4 "Light Cavalry" figures instead of 3 per base.
- 3 "skirmishing cavalry" figures instead of 2 per base.
- 3 "Irregular cavalry" figures instead of 2 per base.
- 5 "Foot artillery" figures instead of 4 per base.
- 4 "Horse artillery" figures instead of 3 per base.
- 4 "Rocket Launcher Servants" figures instead of 3 per base.