"Second question on De Bellis Napoleonicis v 2.1" Topic

Hello everyone

It is explained on page 3 in 2.6 that artillery must only be represented by batteries which are not incorporated into a brigade or a division, so the artillery will not be too cumbersome…

This is a very good idea, but in this case as we can see in certain OOBs there will no longer be enough guns to have artillery elements because most of the batteries are incorporated into a brigade or a division…

For the French it is still possible because they detach their divisional batteries to form "large batteries" with the batteries of the 12 pdrs, but this is not the case for all armies.

Therefore, I think that you should have given a particular tactical factor to the brigades or divisions of infantry and cavalry which kept their batteries on hand (for example a +1 to fire per battery and the possibility of firing from 'distance artillery with these factors) but this is not the case in this rule…

Obviously we cannot treat them like the "Battalion Gun Battery" on page 32 of the rule, but if we do not count in one way or another the artillery incorporated in the brigades or divisions and who remain with them throughout the battles, some armies will have little or no artillery and their firepower will be greatly reduced.

Paskal

Beyond a very tactical level, the incorporated artillery elements do not appear to have a significant impact on the overall larger battle.

A +1 to fire is a big factor in the game and would give the guns an outsized impact on the game.

While not historical doctrine, I've found the best way to incorporate artillery for those armies that might not have any is to scrape together their guns into a separate artillery element, and usually treated as 'M' class with a -1 for being understrength.

This is quite a common problem in all rules with a limited element count which try to represent whole armies, not hust DBN.

Personally I don't have a problem with brigade and divisional batteries being rolled up in the infantry elements firepower. They often ended up only firing in close support anyway, which caused hairtearing frustration for artillery commanders, but hey ho. Some rules might give them some sort of limited long range fire, but in a system like DBN, that isn't really going to work.

As minimo suggests, just group together some sort of random artillery piece if you really want to have a gun in every army.

@miniMo
Well, as these batteries existed, we cannot neglect them.

@Martin Rapier
If I count an artillery unit for every time there were 18 guns, it will be a massacre…

You certainly can neglect them if their impact on the battle was minimal

I've heard similar discussions about Napoleon's Battles. I think it's inherent in the level of representation. Some armies simply weren't organized--or didn't fight--in a way that justifies artillery units in a very high-level game, and trying to put them in anyway plays hob with the game.

My recommendation would be to build artillery units with compatible basing, so that you could use them in a lower-level game with the same forces. Plenty of battles too small for DBN and similar.

@Dexter Ward

"their impact on the battle was minimal"???

No the divisional artillery of the Napoleonic Wars formed the bulk of the artillery and had nothing to do with the "Battalion Gun Batteries".

@robert piepenbrink

With "HFG" rules we count all the pieces of all types of artillery, but with "DBN" rules, it's much more complicated bec ause we only count those which are not "embrigadées" or "endivisionnées".

Using the DBN system and based on Sott Bowden's work "Armies at WATERLOO", here is what the three armies of this battle will have respectively in terms of artillery units.

The Armée du Nord :

80 pieces below with the grand battery , all the rest being with the divisions or brigades to which they are assigned, apart from a Line horse company from the Imperial Guard Corps attachée au VI Army Corps.

From I Army Corps :
6 th Foot Artillery Regt., 20th company(Division Quiot)
6 th Foot Artillery Regt., 10th company(Division Donzelot)
6 th Foot Artillery Regt., 19th company(Division Marcognet)
6 th Foot Artillery Regt., 11th company*(Corps Artillery Reserve)

From II Army Corps :
2 nd Foot Artillery Regt., 7th company*(Corps Artillery Reserve)

From VI Army Corps :
8 th Foot Artillery Regt., 4th company*(Corps Artillery Reserve)

From the Imperial Guard :
Old Guard Foot Art.Regt., 1st company*
Old Guard Foot Art.Regt., 2nd company*
Old Guard Foot Art.Regt., 3rd company*
Old Guard Foot Art.Regt., 4 th company*

Initial composition of the grand battery totalled 80 pieces of ordnance.

* Indicates 12 – pounder artillery companies

The 6th Foot Artillery Regt., 10 th company, and the 6th Foot Artillery Regt., 19 th company were overrun and put out of commission during the charge of the Union Brigade.

The grand battery was thereafter reinforced by one company of horse artillery from Milhaud's IV Reserve Cavalry Corps (which one?The 5th company of the 1st Horse Artillery Regiment or the 4th company of the 3rd Horse Artillery Regiment?)and by the four companies of the Old Guard Horse.

These 116 pieces of artillery give us in terms of DBN 6 unit of 18 pieces:

1 x FA (6th Foot Artillery Regt., 20th -10th and 19th companies)
1 x FA (6th Foot Artillery Regt., 11th company* – 2nd Foot Artillery Regt., 7th company* and 8th Foot Artillery Regt., 4th company*)
2 x FA Elite (Old Guard Foot Art. Regt., 1st -2 nd- 3rd and 4 th companies)
1 x HA Elite (Old Guard Horse Art.Regt., 1st -2 nd- 3rd and 4 th companies)
In addition to the 116 pieces above, as the French cavalry was not accompanied by its divisional artillery in its charges, we can add the following:
I st Horse Artillery Regt., 2nd company (Jacquinot Cavalry Division)
4th Horse Artillery Regt., 2nd company (Piré Cavalry Division)
2nd Horse Artillery Regt., 4th company (Domon Cavalry Division)
I st Horse Artillery Regt., 3rd company (Subervie Cavalry Division)
2nd Horse Artillery Regt., 3rd Company (Lhéritier Cavalry Division)
2nd Horse Artillery Regt., 2nd company (Roussel d'Hurbal Cavalry Division)
I st Horse Artillery Regt., 5 th company (Wathier Cavalry Division)
Which gives us in terms of DBN 2 additional artillery units.
1 x HA (The I st Horse Artillery Regt., 2nd company (Jacquinot Cavalry Division), the 4 th Horse Artillery Regt., the 2nd company (Piré Cavalry Division), the 2 nd Horse Artillery Regt., 4 th company (Domon Cavalry Division) and the I st Horse Artillery Regt., 3rd company (Subervie Cavalry Division))
1 x HA (The 2 nd Horse Artillery Regt., 3 rd compagny (Lhéritier Cavalry Division), the 2nd Horse Artillery Regt., 2 nd compagny (Roussel d'Hurbal Cavalry Division) and the I st Horse Artillery Regt., 5th company (Wathier Cavalry Division)).

The Army of the Lower Rhine :

All the artillery of the Prussian army corps was combined into a single administrative corps of artillery park. The commander of the artillery of each corps would then assign specific batteries for duty with certain maneuvrer elements.For example , if one infantry brigade was to defend a important sector, the corps artillery chief might assign as many as three batteries to the brigade.On the other hand, if a signifiant concentration of artillery was needed somewhere along the corps front , the artillery chief might retain most of the corps artillery batteries in the artillery reserve of the corps for deployment and operation under his direct supervision.

Thus on June 18, at Waterloo using the DBN system, the artillery of the Army of the Lower Rhine will only be represented by 5 batteries – or 40 pieces of artillery – all in the reserve of the IV Army Corps.

These 40 pieces of artillery give us in terms of DBN 2 unit of 18 pieces:

1 x HA (6-pdr.Foot Battery # 11 and 6-pdr. Horse Battery #11)
1 x FA ( 12- pdr.Foot Batteries # 3, 5 and 13)

The Army of the Netherlands :

This army had a maximum of only 67 pieces (plus rockets) neither "embrigadées" or "endivisionnées".

From the British Reserve Artillery :
Lt.Colonel Sir Hew D.Ross's Troop, Royal Horse Artillery ( 9 pdrs)
Major Georges Beane's Troop, Royal Horse Artillery ( 6 pdrs)
Horse Artillery Battery – Captain von Heinemann( 6 pdrs)
Foot Artillery Battery – Major von Moll( 6 pdrs)
From the Royal Horse Artillery of the Cavalry Corps :
Major Robert Bull's Troop,Royal Horse Artillery (Heavy Howitzers)
Lt. Colonel James Webber Smith's Troop, Royal Horse Artillery ( 6 pdrs)
Lt.Colonel Sir Robert Gardiner,K.C.B.,Troop,Royal Horse Artillery ( 6 pdrs)
Captain Edward C.Whinyates's Troop, Royal Horse Artillery ( 6 pdrs)
Captain Alexander C. Mercer's Troop, Royal Horse Artillery ( 9 pdrs)
Major William Norman Ramsay's Troop,Royal Horse Artillery ( 9 pdrs)

Dutch -Belgian Attached Horse Artillery :
One – half Horse Artillery Battery – Captain A.A. Petter ( 6 pdrs)
One – half Horse Artillery Battery – Captain A.R.A. Gey van Pittius ( 6 pdrs)

These 67 pieces of artillery give us in terms of DBN, 3 units of 18 pieces:

3 x HA ( British Reserve Artillery + Royal Horse Artillery of the Cavalry Corps + the Dutch – Belgian Attached Horse Artillery).

To my question if in DBN, the areas given on page 11 for BUA and NLF are for 15mm or 25mm figurines, Alex replied last night:

"Hello Pascal
All distances quoted are for 15mm scale (see 1.4) Therefore with 25mm figures on a 60mm Frontage, BUA's would be approximately 160mm x 160mm and NLF's 120mm x 90mm.
However If I was using 25mm figures, my personal preference would be to go with a 80mm Frontage and double all quoted distances.

Alex"

In conclusion now with 25 mm figurines – 50 mm corresponds to 100 paces.

This modifies all our previous calculations!

Furthermore, after asking Alex the question, this also modifies the quantities of figurines on the bases, which suits me well :

So now on a base for 25 mm figurines we can stick on these larger bases:

- 2 – 5 figures on a "C-in-C" base instead of 2 – 4.
- 2 – 3 figures on a "Sub Commander" base instead of 1 – 2.
- 10 "muskets" figures instead of 8 per base.
- 8 "light infantry" figures instead of 6 per base.
- 4 "jagers" figures instead of 3 per base.
- 10 "Levee en masse" figures instead of 8 per base.
- 4 "Guerrillas" figures instead of 2-3 per base.
- 5 "Heavy Cavalry" figures instead of 4 per base.
- 4 "Light Cavalry" figures instead of 3 per base.
- 3 "skirmishing cavalry" figures instead of 2 per base.
- 3 "Irregular cavalry" figures instead of 2 per base.
- 5 "Foot artillery" figures instead of 4 per base.
- 4 "Horse artillery" figures instead of 3 per base.
- 4 "Rocket Launcher Servants" figures instead of 3 per base.