"It it not time we stopped pussyfooting around?" Topic

The Ukraine war is the West's fault. We pursuaded Ukraine to give up Its nerclear aesenal. They would never have been invaded if they still had it.

Is it not time to give Ukraine what it needs instead of pussyfooting around? A sane Russia would have given up by now, they are not sane but Madmen.

Let's show good faith, give Ukraine what it needs and get it over. The cost of failure will be astronomic, who could blame Ukraine if it now wants the bomb, they gave it up and got invaded because they did and we the West have not done them any favors, for the favor they did for us. Lets face it everybody will need nukes now as the Wests support is lackluster at best.

So we should release nuclear weapons to Ukraine to launch as they see fit?

The danger at the time was they would disappear and/or be sold to non-state, anti-western, actors. Considering the corruption in Ukraine, I think it was the right move. I also think we should have allowed them to buy better gear and equipment much earlier. Had we done so when it became clear Putin had designs on the country, they might never have been invaded.

The War in Ukraine is the fault of Putin & his playmates, not the West. No one invaded Ukraine except Russia. The US, NATO, The EU and other nations have hardly been pussyfooting around, but have supplied billions in support to the Ukrainians. The argument you present is simply silly.

I have said over and over again based my training and experience in the Military. Plus study of history, like many here. Many US GENs (Ret.) have said in the media/news reports :

The US(along with NATO) must give the Ukraine all it needs to push the Russians from their lands.

The US has only given the Ukraine only about 15% of the CE mine & obstacle clearing equipment, e.g. MILICs

Only 31 on M1s(a Ukrainian Tank Bn) ? The USMC just put their 200 M1s in mothballs …

F-16s should have been flying be the Ukraine AF months ago.

What we see that a modern conventional conflict. Using modern mobile combined arms maneuver warfare is very, very expensive. Some ammo(e.g. FA) is used at a very rapid rate.

We had discussed this when on active duty, '79-'90. That if WWIII broken out in Europe. Ammo, parts, troops, vehicles etc. based on the rapid tempo of the conflict could quickly be used up. Within e.g.; in about 6 months there may be shortages of everything.

Having studied, trained and exercised, etc. we knew that pace of combat would be swift. Defeat the USSR/WP quickly to limit CD to people and infrastructure. The longer the war goes on the more the loss of everything occurs. IIRC even GEN Grant said something like that in the ACW over 160 years ago.

IMO the US leadership was too timid in giving the Ukraine what it needed to defend their nation before the Russian invasion. The weak, feckless, etc. US leadership was hoping to push for a brokered peace. Leaving Putin on some of the Ukrainian territory.

The US priority appears not to effectively defend the Ukraine from the Russian invasion. IMO the priorities are all wrong. It took months for Putin to mass his forces on the border. The US response was not moving fast enough with heavier lethal aid before the invasion.

Just like in A'stan, the Taliban/AQ/ISIS were gobbling up provinces almost daily, the US leadership knew this for months. But by the time they reacted it was too late. We all saw what debacle followed.

Meanwhile the Ukraine is taking many too many civilian losses and suffering much destroyed infrastructure, etc.

The US leadership needs to remember you fight the war to win. Or don't fight it at all.

Do they know history of just ignore it as it does not fit their agenda ?

I think the West would rather let Ukraine fall than have them firing off nukes in self-defense. They are not considered worthy of that level of escalation.

IMO, the politicians' goal here is not to defeat Russia per se, but simply to try to keep Ukraine from falling, which is a different mindset.

"Using modern mobile combined arms maneuver warfare is very, very expensive."

I'm not sure that is what is happening here. There seems to be little coordination between artillery and mechanized forces and/or lack of close air support as well while formations maneuver. On the Ukrainian side it's understandable as they have few ground attack aircraft still left. On the Russian side it's pretty inexcusable . Both sides seem to exchange artillery fire, then there are all kinds of little fights for roads, corners of fields, outlying areas of villages, etc., which is where both sides are getting chewed up. If you're looking for good examples of maneuver warfare using combined arms tactics I'm not sure that you'll find it in this war.

79th PA if the Ukraineians had Nukes this war would not have happend. Your attitude is the Ukraine are expendable, we the UK and The US are allowed to nuke nutters, the same nutters as are attacking the Ukraine, but they are expendable so can't have nukes and must die in droves. What happened to the rights of free people's of the world or do you just consider US and UK as having that right.

79th PA +1

I'm not sure that is what is happening here.

Well don't expect it from the Russians to fight modern warfare. I believe because the Ukraine does not have the CE equipment promised to clear the mines & obstacles to actually do a break thru as we e.g. saw in WWII. Otherwise, the fighting now in some case seems almost like in the Hedgerows in WWII France(?).

But previously the Ukraine has bested the Russians on the battlefield. Yes, using MBTs, FA & mostly Infantry. MBTs at this point in many cases reverted to their original mission – Infantry support. That still is combined arms …

However, the battles seem to be small, with Ukraine Infantry sometimes moving slowly thru mines & obstacles, to engage the Russians, etc. With Ukraine FA or even MBTs in support. What we called in support by fire position(s).

It appears, they have broken one thru of the first defensive lines in the South.

TMP link

Being a former Infantry Rifle Plt Ldr and then Mech Cdr, we operated without armor support in many cases. But of course, we had mortar, FA and sometimes CAS in support. I think the Ukraine is using their armor sparingly to exploit a break thru when the Infantry supported by FA makes a big enough "hole". As I said they may be using MBTs in support by fire positions. Plus, again they still need CE MICLICs, etc. I talk about this in that link above a bit.

I could be wrong on all this … as none of us are there. Hopefully the reports are accurate, but in many cases the first report is wrong.

But yes, even this type of modern warfare a lot of ammo can be use especially with FA …

Calm down, UshCha and reread what I posted. I am guessing what I think the world powers are thinking.

You are probably right. If the Ukrainians had nukes the Russians might not have invaded. They may have also invaded thinking that the war would be over in a week, and that the rest of Europe would try to prevent a Ukrainian nuclear launch, which they certainly would have tried to prevent.

My opinion is that "The West' -- including probably all of Europe -- is not willing to go to the nuclear option for Ukraine, nor would they want Ukraine to go there. Yes, I think most of the world considers Ukraine expendable to varying degrees. That's reality. You don't have to like it.

In my opinion, this is a European issue and Europeans don't have enough skin in the game.

What more do you want them to do?

More than they are doing. Europe has grown complacent and the "let the US take care of it" mentality has been the European defense strategy for far too long. This is like a family reunion in which someone forks over a ton of money for all of the main courses, while all of the relatives bring a pack of supermarket cupcakes. The US is providing buckets of chicken while the neighbors are providing cupcakes. It should be the other way around. The European response has been that of an old man startled from a deep sleep. I am sure there were some who were hoping the Ukraine would fall before they had to do anything about it besides write strongly worded letters.

Europe needs to do much more and should have been doing more for the last 20 years. The US should be doing more too, just like in Vietnam we do enough to avoid losing while we home the enemy will get tired and quit. But totalitarian nations never tire because the dictator never tires of war.

The US has 2,000 M1s in storage and we gave Ukraine 31. That will not make a difference. We should have given them 500 or a thousand and year to train in Texas and California, then unleashed them all at once. And the war would be over this summer.

Now it will go on because the West is too timid. We West is too afraid to force they values on others. If todays leaders were involved in WWII we would never have invaded France but still be waiting for the sanctions to work.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek

If I understand correctly, the nukes Ukraine surrendered were deployed in their country, but their command and control was located in Russia. They could no more have launched them in anger at anyone than a cowboy could have used a bandolier of shotgun shells, with no shotgun.

A global nuclear conflagration, which we are risking, make no mistake, and it won't matter whose "fault" it is, is not worth any one nation, or group of nations, or ideology. Sorry, Ukraine. And all those other states that are at war today, even the ones not getting a lot of (biased) media attention.

I'd like to see more efforts made to obtain a ceasefire (pleasing no one, like Korea) that shuts off the bloodshed and destruction before even worse things happen, and I assure you that much worse things can happen, and not just to Ukraine and Russia.

Let's see -- 30 years ago or so, Ukraine was part of the USSR and "we" wouldn't have dared intervene in an internal dispute among Soviet states, lest we risk what we're risking now. I believe our hubris is a menace as much as Russian aggression (and Putin isn't forever, but the end of civilization or humanity would be).

Should we still be fighting in Korea, by the reasoning of some armchair generals here?

"Pussyfooting," I have to laugh when folks are talking like General Buck Turgidson from "Dr. Strangelove." You ought to hear yourselves.

Sure, let's go all in and teach those Russkies a lesson! I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed….

Good points Piper909! Prepare to be slurred as a Putin apologist.

Gray Bear and Piper909 are absolutely correct. But our OP seems to want a bigger and more widespread conflict than already exists. This of course is very easy to call for from the comfort of a soft chair behind a keyboard.

piper909, according to your argument, the Russian Federation could just say that Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania as former members of the USSR, are now part of the Russian Federation.

And everyone should just say OK, you have nuclear weapons and might use them, so here, enjoy your new lands and slaves?

Nice argument.

Fitzovitch

The OP did not say anything about wanting a bigger or larger conflict.

He said that we should not treat this as a wargame trying to make the points more even. We should give enough unused military equipment as Ukraine needs to over match the Russian forces who are invading their land so that they can kick them out quickly instead of many more people dying.

"A global nuclear conflagration, which we are risking, make no mistake, and it won't matter whose "fault" it is, is not worth any one nation, or group of nations, or ideology. Sorry, Ukraine. And all those other states that are at war today, even the ones not getting a lot of (biased) media attention."

No offense, but this a very easy thing o say when someone else's country is being invaded. Someone else's cities being destroyed. Someone else's children being dragged off into slavery. I'm all for giving the Ukrainians everything they need.

I look at it like this; if we'd had the chance, (which we didn't), would it have been better to give the Poles everything they needed it 1939 to hold off the Germans and Soviets? Think of the horrors that would have been avoided if such a situation was possible.

Pendekar you said it for me. I'm in the UK if it not for the Ukrainians we realize all of Europe would be next. Mad men have no limits and Puting is not human just a mad animal. Rational thought is beyond him.

A global nuclear conflagration, which we are risking, make no mistake, and it won't matter whose "fault" it is, is not worth any one nation, or group of nations, or ideology.

I highly doubt anyone will be tossing nukes of any yield around at any time soon if ever.

If I had to make a SWAG, some radical, fanatic, jihadi moslems would be at the top of my list. For using a nuke(s) on infidels[that's most of us, BTW]. We have Spec Ops, etc. who are making sure this does not happen.

Should we still be fighting in Korea, by the reasoning of some armchair generals here?

Spent 22 months there with the 2ID and 2 tours on the DMZ, '84-'85. With a forward deployed M113 Mech Bn. It got a little "hot" at times. It is only a truce … The war is not over, but there it is generally in a state of peace. It should stay that way.

No one even Un or his father are grandfather wanted to toss nukes around in reality. Of course, Un just got nukes. They are gangsters. They don't want to die. Un knows he may get the first shot. But after that, without WMDs, we could turn the North into a moonscape. No matter where he and his family are they'd be "Krispy Kritters" …

"Pussyfooting," I have to laugh when folks are talking like General Buck Turgidson from "Dr. Strangelove." You ought to hear yourselves.

Sure, let's go all in and teach those Russkies a lesson! I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed….

I loved that movie ! Great writing & acting, etc. BTW it was meant to be satire, hyperbole, etc. Again, we all know the concept of MAD.

A nation's leadership must be concerned about nukes, but don't fear them to the point being paralyzed. If those leaders become that timid, feckless, weak, fearful, etc. Our enemies with Nukes will see that and take advantage of it. Our enemies only respect strength. They only make threats about nukes and have. But we have to go with the Peace thru Strength concept. Our enemies should be concerned about us not the other way around. They know we have a Big Stick too, and had already used is once, well twice a long time ago.

Mad men have no limits and Puting is not human just a mad animal. Rational thought is beyond him.

He's a psychopath or sociopath or both(!?). Also a war criminal. He was KGB, he is not a military combat leader. However, it also seems none of his military leaders are either. Very amateurish, marginal, etc. More like Orks.

There is no way in Hell, with 50% of the Russian military, mostly ground, being gone/destroyed. He can't get thru Ukraine. Where is he going to get the huge amount forces to even invade any of the NATO nations on his border? There is no WP, most of them are in NATO now. He knows about NATO Article 5 …

Unless the PRC/CCP and North Korea sends troops to support what is left of Putin's forces. He is not going anywhere. The probability of his Asian BFFs joining in the fight is also highly, highly, unlikely, a statistical improbability.

The US/NATO should have no boots on the ground there. Again, the Ukraine is not the South Vietnamese or ANA/ANP. The Ukraine can and will fight. And fight effectively as we have repeatedly seen. They will fight now give them what they need to push the Russians off their land.

I'm in the UK if it not for the Ukrainians we realize all of Europe would be next

Wait, half the threads are "Ha, ha look at how incompetent the Ruskies are. They so suck!" But then comes the "The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming!" Can someone pick which story it is?

Pendekar, you are correct that the OP did not say he wanted a wider war. Unfortunately that would likely be the result of anything beyond a very carefully orchestrated plan carried out by experienced and knowledgeable professionals on the diplomatic front. It is very east to sit in a comfortable chair behind a keyboard and second guess those in the middle of the situation.

I for one will allow them to do their work without my commentary on their performance,

"experienced and knowledgeable professionals on the diplomatic front"

Please tell me who these folks are?

The time to have resisted Hitler was earlier than 1939.

Similarly, 2008 was the time the West should have seen the writing on the wall.
By 2014 it should have been obvious support that had been promised was due Ukraine. It would have likely been a lot less expensive to nip expansion in the bud in 2014 than now.

You are right they should have been stopped in 2014.

link

link

and we would not have this situation now.

By 2014 it should have been obvious support that had been promised was due Ukraine. It would have likely been a lot less expensive to nip expansion in the bud in 2014 than now.

Yes, but it takes competent, strong, capable leadership from the West. Especially from the USA. To really understand the situation. And make the appropriate moves. As I have said so many times before. Predators can see weakness, confusion, etc. and take advantage of it.

"experienced and knowledgeable professionals on the diplomatic front"

Please tell me who these folks are?

Yes, those that are supposed to be professionals are few and far between. If I mentioned any names, I'd be DH'd. 🐶🏠

There are people back at State, after the department was all but dismantled in the last admin, who have a lot of knowledge. This does not always mean they will be utilized, nor does it mean they are always right.

We have a huge array of intelligence resources, as functional as anyone's. How it gets used, or not used is another matter. But we are not in a time now where a leader can get away with winging it.

Don't get me started ! I would love to see 100 years from now, what historians have to say about the USA's last 3 POTUSs. Too bad I will be long dead. ☠👻

But my concern remains… does anybody in top US leadership positions, including the Congress have any idea what real leadership is ? Being an activist doesn't really qualify, IMO … Did they all forgot about "we the people" i.e. us …

Ned Ludd, you know very well that the State Department and the Intelligence Community are very capable, but nice try.

Of course they are. How would we ever have arrived at and maintained our status as a world power otherwise?

Legion+1. Leadership has not been inspiring or competent in recent years. Leaders need to listen to their experts as well as the people who elected them. But then they need the ability to make good judgements about what they learn also. Bad choices and willful ignorance have hurt us. Lack of judgement, things like watching tv instead of reading briefings, too much micromanaging, lack of focus, involving or even hiring family members. Both sides.

IMO we have been lucky to get through these last few years. If you've ever worked for the government in this type of work, you might have seen that it's not the "deep state" that causes dysfunction, it's partisan political appointees who arrive with each election cycle, or in some cases, every few months. They often lack background in the responsibilities they oversee. They may have other agendas and undermine the mission. They are loyal to party and leader first. Working to serve America's citizens under these circumstances can be trying. Patronage is not new.

The federal government is too big. In any huge organization, not everyone is competent or honest. But deep state theory does not explain how everything works, IMO.

Tort +1 Again activists, zealots, etc. tend not to be leaders. Again I'd mention names but … well … we know the deal. Regardless many of them keep getting reelected ?

you know very well that the State Department and the Intelligence Community are very capable,

Hyperbole, right ? 'nuff said …

"The time to have resisted Hitler was earlier than 1939."

hat's a fair point. However Ukraine, like Poland before, was not given what it needed until it was too late. We have a chance to reverse that mistake this time, but we're pussyfooting around.

Yes … The US and even NATO did not send enough lethal weapons systems to Ukraine while Russia was taking months to mass forces along the border.

"Pray for Peace but prepare for War" …