"Ukraine Claims Major Breakthrough In Southern" Topic

…Counteroffensive

"In an interview with the Observer, , Brigadier General Oleksandr Tarnavskyi, Commander of the Tavriia Operational and Strategic Group of Forces, said that the Russian forces spent 60% of their time and resources on the construction of the first line of defence, and only 20% for the second and third. Now the Ukrainian army is advancing on both sides of the breakthrough and are consolidating their positions…"

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Armand

Internal politics is and will be the downfall of the Russian army in Ukraine.

Putang's cronies are simple incompetent!
Yet he must stand by his cronies or lose his job.
Even before the war Putang had more police/KGB style personnel than in the army. Why would a army officer be successful if it only puts them as a rival to Putang and his cronies? One wonders if there are political officers in the Russian army again.

It is a good thing for the Ukraine forces. Let us hope they can maximize it.

Great news !!! Now the US still has to get all the support they need to defeat the Russians!

And yes, the leadership starting with Putin are "amateurs" at best. They know 0 about modern combined arms maneuver warfare.

Being the military geniuses that we are we too would understand the time tested principles of the "castle defence" strategy. Consecutive outer defences whithering the attack as a precursor of facing the most substantial defensive structure. Sounds like stating the obvious to me… Duh.

Well its a potential answer to the question about why the Russians clung so doggedly to that first line when they had those additional lines they could have fallen back on. The biggest irony may yet be that Russia simply runs out of manpower (at least temporarily).

There was also a hint that Ukraine may still have something up its sleeve. Looks like they haven't given up on trying to the Russian's dilemmas' rather than problems and it looks like Russia may have split its last significant reserve possibly in fear of that.

Though in apparently manually clearing minefields the Ukrainian's may also be giving the Russian's a lesson in tenacity which was supposed to one of their 'things'….

It will be interesting to see how well occupied/covered with fire subsequent defence lines are.
The russians on the Southern front have been doing a pretty good impression of the Wehrmacht in Normandy for the last several weeks, by refusing to cede ground even when it has become tactically disadvantageous (eg because of Ukrainian artillery preponderance), and by pushing their supposedly best troops into the first line to prevent it breaking.
None of us can predict how that will go. The South is high risk for both sides. For the Ukrainians, it's high risk reputationally and politically in terms of international support. For the russians, it's high risk militarily too. They seem to have have staked a lot on their 'Normandy strategy' of clinging to the first line. It could deliver them a defensive victory at least in terms of territory, but it could make it difficult for them to react effectively if their lines do break. Time will tell.

Being the military geniuses that we are we too would understand the time tested principles of the "castle defence" strategy. Consecutive outer defences whithering the attack as a precursor of facing the most substantial defensive structure. Sounds like stating the obvious to me… Duh.

Yes that is what the Russians did at Kursk in WWII.

However, the attacker penetrates one line of defense. Follow on forces hold the shoulders. And other forces push thru and exploit the penetration. Bypassing "castles"/strongpoints, etc. Pushing into enemy LOCs, C3, etc. Out flanking the defensive lines causing the defenders to retreat. Kind of like "Blitzkrieg".

It's not being military geniuses, it's understanding the basics of modern mobile combined arms maneuver warfare.

Also note with the advent of widespread accurate use of FA[then later CAS]. We don't see "castles" being built as in the past.

Use FA & CAS to attrite the strong point, cordon then bypass …

It will be interesting to see how well occupied/covered with fire subsequent defence lines are.

There have been some reports of defenses in the second line being undefended/unmanned, and of minefields being much less dense.

I had heard similar. The Russians just don't have the numbers of skilled troops to effectively man all the defenses. Once the first line is breached, the others are weaker. And I highly doubt the Russians could make an effective counterattack.

Is this a backwards approach? Should the third line be the strongest after the first two wear down the attackers?

I guess that's what the castle defense really is, vs the Normandy defense.

So, we are talking about the first line of defense, or which there are three. Each line of defense consists of dragon teeth, a tank ditch and then a fortified defended line. So we are talking about the very first line of defense here.

The Ukrainians have managed to penetrate through the dragon teeth and tank ditch of the first line of defense, which were undefended, however, they have not attacked the actually fortified line of defense. In this area, the separation between the first two lines and the third of the first line of defense is quite large.

Supplying the created salient is a nightmare as the only road leading to the area goes through the village of Robotyne. The Russians maintain fortifications to the West and South of the village, with the Southern portion of the totally destroyed village in the grey zone.

Thus, a push by the Ukrainians in the direction of the 3rd, fortified line, at the end of the salient they have created, means they will be under continuous artillery fire as they must move through open ground. To breech the "first line of defense" means that they must breakthrough the third line which is actually a fortified and defended position.

So, overall, no major break through yet.

I hope they are not fighting their way into a trap…

According to the statements I have seen, one of the Ukrainian aims now is to widen the salient to make it less vulnerable to counter-operations.

No one said it would be easy.
The Ukrainians are losing less man and material than the Russians while on the attack. They also are finding what works and what doesn't. The quality of Ukrainian's forces are getting better, the quality of Russian forces gets worse.
If the West can keep a stiff back, then end game is clear!

Is this a backwards approach? Should the third line be the strongest after the first two wear down the attackers?

Yes, but the Russians don't have the troops, etc., to effectively man 2-3 defensive lines as I said. Making the first line the strongest is one tactic/technique or making the 3d line the strongest are both good methods. Depending on the terrain & situation. Which generally dictates pretty much everything.

The front lines being weaker than the last is a tactic to attrite the attacker. Weakening the attacker so when they get thru the 1-2 weaker front lines. By the time they hit the third most powerful line. The defender can really stop and attrite the already weakened attacker.

Russia does not the "luxury" to make all 3 of their defensive line very strong. They are short of men, equipment, etc. This ain't Kursk.

The Russians are hoping to stop the Ukraine offensive before they can penetrate too deeply. And bypass strong points.

Any ground lost by the Russians mean they will have to counterattack to take it back. As I said they probably don't the assets to an effect counter offensive. So stopping the Ukraine at the first defensive line would be their priority.

I guess that's what the castle defense really is, vs the Normandy defense.

Basically yes, or even the Maginot Line. BUT in modern combine arms maneuver warfare, strong points are bypassed. And push on with follow force to hold the shoulders. And again, go after supply points, C3, etc.

So, overall, no major breakthrough yet.

The major break thru will occur when 3d and probably the weakest line is penetrated & exploited.

I hope they are not fighting their way into a trap…

I don't think the Russians have the assets to spring a trap. And it may be out of their militaries abilities to do that.

Seems to me the Russians are more like Orks …

Being the military geniuses that we are

Well again we all or most of us can see the resemblances to again … the "Blitzkrieg" of the 1940s.

one of the Ukrainian aims now is to widen the salient to make it less vulnerable to counter-operations.

Yes very good plan, hold the shoulders, widen it and exploit the hole in the line.

The quality of Ukrainian's forces are getting better, the quality of Russian gets worse.

Dem Russkies, dey Bee Orkeze !

Ukraine Has Won The Battle To Penetrate Russia's First Defensive Belt (What Happens Now?)

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Armand