"All had the same carriage?" Topic

Hello everyone,

How is it that the Wargames Foundry reference: CWG001 Artillery Piece offers a Choice of 5 Barrels for a single carriage?

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All the guns and howitzers of this war had the same carriage???

Thank you.

Four of the barrels provided in the Wargames Foundry set would have been mounted on the same carriage. The 12 pound Napoleon was supposed to be used with No. 2 Field Carriage and the others were to be used with the No. 1.

The two carriages are very similar in height and width. The greatest difference between the No.1 and the No. 2 that may be visible on the gaming table is that the No. 2 is about 7 inches/18 cm longer.

link

Basically, all field artillery carriages looked the same.

I agree. I'm usually a stickler but unless it's an oddball like the Wiard Rifle or the 12-pdr Mountain Howitzer I model them all the same.

So no problem?

No problem.

@enfant perdus

Yet all the guns and howitzers of this war had the same carriage.

For 40mm scale and below I find the differences between the carriages of no aesthetic value. Same goes for mini. companies that may sell soldiers "equipped with Springfields" vs. "equipped with Enfields", etc. Just doesn't add up to anything on the tabletop, unless you're zooming in to each individual model with a telescope.

To be honest, one of the details that does make a difference to me even in smaller scales are the different canteen types, simply because those can be picked out as different colors and shapes. Union canteens, the issue smoothside covered in brown or tan jeancloth, the Confederates with either the more squared off silver drum canteen, the reddish brown wooden canteen, or a captured canteen. That kind of detail even at tabletop height can and should be distinguished.

But something like gun carriages, no.

The Wiard had a very different and distinct carriage.

Siege guns certainly were different.

And while there were 3 different size carriages, you could hardly notice the difference as they were the same style, only slightly different in size.

There is also a difference in CSA and USA Napoleons and 3" (6lb) rifles. All the howitzers were the same from pre-war designs.

Kim

There is also a difference in CSA and USA Napoleons and 3" (6lb) rifles. All the howitzers were the same from pre-war designs.

But only when discussing those manufactured in the south. It is true that some of those made in the south during the war did not have the muzzle flare (those made by Tredegar Iron Works).

However, loads of Union 12-pound Napoleons were captured and used by the rebels, so it is not a visual error if a gamer wanted to simply always use the flared muzzle pieces to represent Napoleons on either side.

From an essay on artillery usage in the ACS:

Many historians estimate as many as two-thirds of the most common types of light artillery used by the Confederate
army were captured from Union forces.

If the above is true, then two-thirds of rebel Napoleons were former union pieces, and only one-third were made during the war. My research indicates that Tredegar Iron Works (largest maker of cannons in the south) made about half of home-grown artillery. I don't know if other iron works in the south produced the flared version of the tube, or non-flared versions identical to Tredegar.

@Baranovich
Not for cannon carriages given their sizes.

@KimRYoung
Yes completely agree that's why I asked the question two years ago.

@SeattleGamer
Good deduction but I would like to see two illustrations showing the differences.

So it's not a visual error if a player simply always wanted to use the flared muzzle pieces to represent the Napoleons on each side, but is it impossible to know battle by battle, battery by battery what type of 12pdrs were used?

@All
Please so as not to lose the thread of the conversation, if someone resumes our "conversation" notify me by pm, thank you.

Seattle,

Not so sure I would agree with the two-third numbers. CSA western armies were often on the losing end of the major battles and not likely to have hauled off anywhere near that number for their field armies.

In the east they were more successful and certainly captured more artillery early in the war. At Antietam the ANV had only 26 Napoleons in the army. 8 Napoleons were captured at Harper's Ferry but did not get used at Antietam.

Being on the defensive at Fredericksburg did not give the confederates much of an opportunity to capture guns, and during the Chancellorsville campaign they lost guns trying to defend the Mayre's Heights again.

Lee's army at Gettysburg had 99 Napoleons. The south had sent their 6 pounders and some howitzers back to arsenals to be remelted into new cast Napoleons.

Confederate production of Napoleons began in very small numbers at private gunfounders. Leeds and Co. of New Orleans produced some of the first based on the U.S. design (flared muzzle swell) as did Quimby & Robinson of Memphis who made some with a muzzle swell and a few with a banded muzzle. These are the type 1, 2 and 3 CSA Napoleons.

JR Andersons Tredegar Iron Works would make napoleons of their own design (the type 4) but moved to the no-muzzle flare along with all the government foundries.
The following is the know total of Napoleons produced by the CSA Private foundries:

Leeds & Co. – 12 Napoleons
Quimby & Robinson – 8 Napoleons
Tredegar Iron Works – 120 bronze, 125 Iron Napoleons

The majority of the Tredegar bronze guns had no muzzle swell. The iron Napoleons had an iron reinforced ring that made them look more like a parrot rifle. Shortages of copper and tin force them to make considerable iron Napoleon guns.

The C.S. government foundries went into production with more uniform design without the muzzle swell. The following is the number of Napoleons produced by them:

Government Foundry & Machine Works, Augusta, GA – 115 Napoleons.
Charleston Arsenal, Charleston, SC – 15 Napoleons.
Confederate States Arsenal, Columbus, GA – 60 Napoleons.
Macon Arsenal, Macon, GA – 80 Napoleons.

The non-muzzle swell Napoleons are the type 5 and the iron Napoleons the type 6.

Total number of Napoleons produced by the South – 535 guns
Only 54 Napoleons were produced prior to 1863.

Kim

@KimRYoung
Thank you for the information, but you absolutely must add photos or color illustrations so that we can distinguish the different types of 'Napoleon', thank you.

TMP link

@All
Please so as not to lose the thread of the conversation, if someone resumes our "conversation" notify me by pm, thank you.

I have been looking, but have yet to discover any source that states (for a particular battle) that Battery A had Union Napoleons and Battery B and Confederate Napoleons. All the OOB info I have looked at simply states how many 12-pounder Napoleons make up that battery.

From notes I have, the Confederates had 271 artillery pieces at Gettysburg (July 1863). Of those, 111 were 12-Pounder Napoleons (41% of his total). Another note from a different source says that R.E. Lee stated he had 49 Confederate Napoleons at Gettysburg.

So that's 62 Union and 49 Confederate Napoleons on the Rebel side. But I have never seen anything that documents which batteries had which guns.

At Shiloh (April 1862) the Confederates had 119 artillery pieces. Of those only 6 were 12-pounder Napoleons.

Because early war, the Confederates had mostly 6-pounder and 12-pounder howitzers (just like the Union army). At Shiloh they had 64 6-pounder and 38 12-pounder howitzers. They even had 9 3" rifle Ordnance. Barely had any Napoleons at all.

And that makes sense, because the entire Union Artillery Corps at the start of the war had 165 field artillery pieces, and only 5 of these were 12-pounder Napoleons (these were made under license in 1857 and no follow-up orders were ever placed).

Because of the war, production orders were ramped up quickly. And everyone associated with artillery quickly realized the Napoleon was the superior weapon of choice.

Union ramped up production (made 1,157 during the war), Confederates did as well (made 501 during the war), and certainly prized any Yankee guns they could capture.

Even if 100% of Confederate manufactured Napoleons had no muzzle flare, that still leaves us with 70% of all Napoleons being of Union manufacture, with the flare.

Lacking specific battery by battery assignments, the best Confederate gamers can do is sprinkle some confederate-made (no flare) Napoleons in their batteries, along with the union-made (flared) versions. If they are so inclined.

I only have Perry artillery myself, and they don't make a confederate napoleon. So I don't know where to find such a thing.

@SeattleGamer

I searched, and I continue, but it seems that no source unfortunately gives this kind of information.

For Gettysburg as for all battles, you will have as many different opinions as there are authors except when they copy each other…

With photos or illustrations showing the differences, you will be able to make it.

@All
Please so as not to lose the thread of the conversation, if someone resumes our "conversation" notify me by pm with a link, thank you.

With rare exceptions, you could easily go with one carriage to rule them all.

Technically, the No 1 Carriage was specified for use by:
6-Pound Smoothbore
3" Ordnance Rifle
10-Pound Parrott Rifle
12-Pound Howitzer

And the No 2 Carriage was specified for use by:
12-Pound Napoleon
24-Pound Howitzer

However, the differences would be super hard to pick out at any sort of gaming scale. The wood was a tad beefier, but the real differences were that the No 2 Carriage was 6" longer (No 1 was 116" and the No 2 was 122"), and 1" taller.

For 28mm scale cannons that translates into maybe 2-3mm in length. No way could anyone pick out that the No 2 was supposed to be slightly taller.

They both used the same wheels (57"). The wheels were the same distance apart (60").

Given that the first 5 pieces listed above counted for 99 percent of all field guns, it is safe to go with a single carriage.

There were some oddball/rare pieces with different carriages, but those are not likely to be encountered in your typical game.

The 12-Pound Mountain Gun was on a totally different (and different looking) carriage. The Pack Carriage. Wheels were different (only 12 spoke, and 15" smaller), carriage length was way smaller. The whole thing was lighter by a wide margin (less than 400 pounds, where the No 1 was 900 pounds and the No 2 was 1125 pounds). It was designed to be taken apart and hauled around through rough terrain by 3 horses or pack mules (carriage and gun barrel).

I have yet to acquire any in 28mm scale. Not sure who even makes them. Not sure I even have a scenario that needs them (although I would guess they crop up a time or two given how many scenario books I have, and my main interest is early war).

@SeattleGamer
For my 25 mm S range MiniFigs which are much better than the latest 25mm MiniFigs still on sale currently I don't know what to use as guns?

Besides, there were only three references not found of ACW artillery pieces in the 'S' series and I don't even know what sizes they were?

For the 25mm MiniFigs still on sale currently, I'll use the MiniFigs 25mm ACW cannons still on sale currently:

link

But as there is no 'Napoleon' in the MiniFigs 25mm Artillery ACW range currently on sale, which is a to top it off, for them I I'll use those from the Old Glory 25mm Artillery ACW range:

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Because by a miracle the different 25mm artillery ranges from Old Glory offer artillery pieces compatible with the infantryman and cavalry figurines from the 25mm MiniFigs and are sometimes even smaller than MiniFigs cannons, I was able to see this for the British 9 pdrs from the Napoleonic wars.

Nevertheless I prefer to use the 25 mm ACW S range MiniFigs which are much better than the latest 25mm MiniFigs 25 mm range still on sale currently but I don't know what to use as guns for the S range?

And the color of the carriages and the horse-drawn vehicles, without forgetting the number of spokes on the wheels, were they the same for the two belligerents of the ACW?

@All
Please so as not to lose the thread of the conversation, if someone resumes our "conversation" notify me by pm with a link, thank you.

Both sides used the same artillery manual, and it specified the carriages be olive drab. This was a mixture of yellow ochre and lamp black paint, both commonly available. The ratio to mix was in the manual.
All Union artillery vehicles would be this olive drab (gun carriages, limbers, cassions, battery forge). The wood would be olive drab, and the metal gloss black.
Most Confederate would likely also be olive drab, but putting in some brown and grey carriages would add some variation.

@Cleburne1863
Color photos are needed to see the differences if the paints have not faded.

Their are no color photos of artillery during the war. If you are referring to artillery on display at battlefields, the painted carriages would have a non-glossy lacquer coating to preserve the paint for years.

During the war, the paint would wear which is why as Cleburne pointed out the batteries would have the ability to mix their own paint and re-paint them.

Kim

Imported British guns would have had gray (grey) carriages.

@KimRYoung
It's true that between the real colors and those of the illustrations in the books or the photos on TMP, there is a whole world.
TMP link

@donlowry
They kept the original colors on foreign equipment?

@Both of you
Now I would now need to know the real length of the tubes and the real diameter of the wheels of the different artillery pieces to see what I could attribute – according to the different manufacturers – to my MiniFigs "S" RANGE 25 mm figurines which are real 25mm .