"Cannon carriages during the ACW." Topic

Hello everyone,
Is it possible that the cannon carriages of the "Napoleon 12 Ib", 3 inch Ordnance Rifle", "6 Ib gun", "Parrot 10 Ib Rifle" and "Napoleon 12 Ib Hotwitzer" would have been identical?

First, the 12lb "Napoleon" was a Gun/Howitzer so there's only one type of them. The Napoleon, the 3" Ordnance, and the 10ld Parrot all used the same carriage.Not really sure about the 6lb gun. There might have been some variation among Southern-built carriages.

To my knowledge all the same. (Union)

There were different 3-gun carriages. (weight)

One for the 6 lb. gun and 12 lb. howitzer (900 lbs.)
One for the 24 lb. howitzer (1128 lbs.)
One for the 12 lb. gun (1841 model) and 32 lb. howitzer. (1175 lbs.)

The 12 lb. Napoleon was originally mounted on the 24 lb. howitzer carriage with plans to make a special carriage just for it.

The 10 lb. Parrott and 3-inch ordnance rifles were mounted on the 6 lb. carriage strengthened using the 12 lb. axle-tree.

The 20 lb. Parrott rifle was mounted on the 32 lb. howitzer carriage.

Parts were all similar but varied in dimensions. Wheels for the larger two are slightly bigger.

The CSA used essentially the same design for their guns.

The less common Wiard had its own special carriage supplied by the manufacturer.

Foreign guns in service, such as the Blakely and Whitworth were shipped with their own design.

Kim

@ScottWashburn
The 12lb "Napoleon" was a Gun/Howitzer, thank you, I knew that thanks to my interest in the past for the French artillery during the Crimean War.

It had been very little modified by the Americans.

@35thOVI
I think that's what the majority of people believe.

@KimRYoung
Was there a plan to make a special carriage specifically for the 12lb Napoleon ?

It has been done ?

So this special mount was not that of the 10 lb Parrott rifles, the 3 inch artillery rifles and the 6 lb cannon ?

So we can say that the 10 lb Parrott rifles, the 3 inch artillery rifles and the 6 lb cannon had carriages of identical external appearance ?

As others have said, there were minor differences in the carriages, mostly based on weight of the barrel. For wargaming purposes, the differences would not be noticeable.

Thank Kim

@Cleburne1863
there were minor differences in the carriages?
Which ones?

The larger gun carriages are 7 to 9 inches longer. They were designed to accommodate the tube size. On a miniature model you would not notice the difference. You would likely see more difference on the same gun type from different miniature manufactures.

A bigger difference that miniature manufacturers ignore is the difference between union made and confederate made guns. Some will show slight difference in the 12 lb. napoleons, but not the confederate 6 lb. rifles that were the equivalent to the union ordnance rifles.

Confederates made rifles with both 3 inch and 3.3-inch bores and cast them out of both bronze and iron. These had a shorter cylindrical reinforce, hemispherical breech and gentle blending. Last trip to Gettysburg I really noticed the difference between CSA made rifles and the Union 3 inch ordnance rifles.

Also, there are confederate made 6 lb. smoothbores that are identical, they simply had no rifling.

There is a Confederate made 6 lb. iron smoothbore sitting right next to a 3 inch ordnance rifle displayed in one of the CSA batteries in East Cavalry Field that at first glance look to be the exact same gun, but on closer examination are different.

The confederates also had various 12 lb. howitzers made from cast iron that had smooth tubes unlike the more ornate 6 lb. Union bronze smoothbores.

Once again, on the tabletop even these might not be noticeable, though painting them bronze or iron could help distinguish the different gun types, such as a type 2 James rifle.

Kim

@KimRYoung
On a miniature model, I won't notice the difference?

It depends on the scale.

What scale are 28mm, 25mm and 15mm?

On artillery pieces whose sizes are normally immutable, you cannot cheat.

It is true that the artillery pieces manufactured by the Confederation must have been very different from the federal models, but we still need to know them and what they are.

I thought all 6 lb guns were smoothbore and bronze…?

The Confederates also had various Union cannons and howitzers, re-used without modification after capture, but we do not know in what proportions?

Not all 6 lb guns were smoothbore or bronze. To increase the number of rifled guns early in the war the Union had many 6 lb smoothbores rifled. Their official designation was then a 6 lb rifle, though with an elongated projectile it would fire a heavier round.

Confederates made smoothbores out of both bronze and iron depending on raw metal availability. Design of confederate guns was not the same as Union guns and varied even even within the same type. Cast iron Napoleons with wrought iron banding looked more like a Parrott rifle.

If you really want to get more specific information as to what was produced by both sides then this is the book to get:

link

Kim

@KimRYoung
Yes, I suspected that ACW artillery was not as simple a subject as we imagine.

It would be necessary to find documentation which indicates the ranges and rates of fire of each type of field cannon and howitzer of this war as well as artillery organization charts for each army, at least in the most famous battles.

For this, the book you indicate is the best on the subject?

Effective ranges (at 5-degree elevation) for artillery are well documented:
6 lb. smoothbore 1523 yds
12 lb. howitzer 1072 yds
24 lb. howitzer 1322 yds
32 lb. howitzer 1504 yds
12 lb. Napoleon 1619 yds
3 in. Ordnance rifle 1830 yds
10 lb. Parrott 1900 yds.
20 lb. Parrott 1900 yds

While rifle artillery could fire at even greater ranges, visibility, fuse timers and ammunition expenditure usually precluded it.

As for the rate of fire, this is more limited to the tactical situation. When defending at close range 3 rounds a minute was possible for all guns. At longer ranges, tactical doctrine usually precludes any fire faster than 1 round a minute, or even 2 minutes.

The book I recommend is the best for the number and type of field artillery produced by both sides during the war with very detailed information by type and gun manufactures.

Orders of battle will give you the organization, gun types and quantity of individual batteries.

Artillery organization for major battles such as Gettysburg and Antietam are also very well documented and available.

Kim

@KimRYoung
Very interesting !

Now the 3 in. Ordnance rifle was classified as a gun of how many Ib?

All these artillery pieces fired shells, canisters and shrapnel, but no more balls?

If the rocket timers and the expense of ammunition generally prevented the rifle artillery from firing further I don't see the point in using them, except perhaps for more precision, on the other hand I have heard that the smoothbore pieces were more effective with their canisters than rifled guns and in fact the 12 lb. Napoleon was the gunners' favorite piece.

Isn't this gun the one that was used the most?

As for the rates of fire, it is almost identical for all muzzle-loading pieces.

Aren't you talking about breech-loading rifled cannons?

Because they had to shoot farther and faster than muzzle-loading pieces.

There weren't many of them, but they existed, very interesting pieces of artillery for the time.

And what does that mean for the color of the carriages and tubes?

Do you also recommend the Ospreys Books on the ACW artillery pieces?

Now the 3 in. Ordnance rifle was classified as a gun of how many Ib?

Fired a 9.5 lb projectile

All these artillery pieces fired shells, canisters and shrapnel, but no more balls?

Smoothbore guns (not howitzers) still used solid round shot. Rifled pieces discontinued the use of elongated bolts early in the war and only used case, shell and canister rounds.

If the rocket timers and the expense of ammunition generally prevented the rifle artillery from firing further I don't see the point in using them, except perhaps for more precision, on the other hand I have heard that the smoothbore pieces were more effective with their canisters than rifled guns and in fact the 12 lb. Napoleon was the gunners' favorite piece.

It's not the cost of the ammunition, it's the waste of it at extreme ranges. Rifled artillery was much more accurate than smoothbores when firing case or shell rounds. Smoothbores were much more effective firing canister then rifles, but canister would generally only be used when the enemy was within 350 yds.

Isn't this gun the one that was used the most?

No. Less than 40% of the guns on either side even at Gettysburg. The CSA at Antietam had only 26 Napoleons (11%) in their army.

As for the rates of fire, it is almost identical for all muzzle-loading pieces.

Depends on if the crew was significantly reduced.

Aren't you talking about breech-loading rifled cannons?

There are virtually NO breechloaders used in the Civil War. CSA had 2 at Gettysburg, one which became unserviceable.

Because they had to shoot farther and faster than muzzle-loading pieces.

Shooting faster is of no consequence until the advent of recoilless artillery carriages and advanced targeting. Long after the ACW.

There weren't many of them, but they existed, very interesting pieces of artillery for the time.

Again, only a few and given the terrain and tactics of little use.

And what does that mean for the color of the carriages and tubes?

The carriages were painted dark olive with iron work painted black. Cast iron and wrought tubes painted black. Bronze tubes not painted but would be polished.

Do you also recommend the Ospreys Books on the ACW artillery pieces?

Yes. Good starting point for basic information.

Best of luck as you continue to study this. Being an engineer it's my favorite area.

Kim

@KimRYoung
Very interesting!

This isn't the first time I've been interested in ACW also your opinions would be welcome on the subjects below.

TMP link

TMP link

Isn't this gun the one that was used the most?

No. Less than 40% of the guns on either side even at Gettysburg. The CSA at Antietam had only 26 Napoleons (11%) in their army.

I'm not going to quibble about the numbers, but I think that can be somewhat misleading. As I recall at Sharpsburg the Confederates still had a large number of older 6 and 12 pounders. The Army of the Potomac was able to change over to Napoleons, 3" Ordinance and Parrott guns fairly quickly. In the Confederate army and the other U.S. armies the turnover was slow enough that the arrival of Napoleon was seen as an improvement.

As I recall at Sharpsburg the Confederates still had a large number of older 6 and 12 pounders.

Yes, 6 lb. smoothbores, around 60, and 12 lb. Howitzers around 50.

Paskal was asking specifically about the 12 lb. Napoleon, but yes, the CSA at Antietam had a little over 55% smoothbores of all types.

By Gettysburg the CSA had only a single 6 lb. smoothbore, but still had 29 12 lb. Howitzers.

Most of these howitzers had minimal effect and did not participate in the bombardment prior to Pickett's Charge and many were removed from their batteries with the intent to follow the infantry attack. This never materialized.

The 12 lb. Howitzer was still an effective defensive gun as it fired the same canister rounds as a Napoleon, but as an offensive support weapon was of limited use do to its limited range.

At Gettysburg the Union had only two 12 Lb. howitzers.

In the Western theater, 6 lb. guns and 12 lb. howitzers were still employed in greater numbers then the east for the CSA.

Kim

@Bill N
I thought the 12 lb. gun. Napoleon were the star of the ACW belligerents' artillery?

@KimRYoung
What is the most used, most characteristic piece of artillery during the ACW.

And what European artillery pieces were used during the ACW and by whom?

Many of the more out of date field pieces were used in the Western Theater much longer. The Army of the Potomac always got the best things first.

For instance at Chickamauga for Confederates.

"He posted Captain James P. Douglas's Texas Battery east of and slightly north of the 4th Indiana Salient. He posted his own Alabama Battery, now under command of Lieutenant Robert Goldthwaite, about 400 yards to the south. Douglas's guns were about 300 yards from the Federal line. His cannon included two six-pound smoothbores and two twelve-pound howitzers, both outmoded by the 1860s, but still effective at this range. Goldthwaite manned four twelve-pound Napoleons. When all eight Confederate pieces opened on the Indianans, they delivered an almost perfect ninety-degree intersecting crossfire – scientific gunnery at its finest."

At Stones River (Union)

The gunners of Rosecrans' army utilized a wide variety of artillery pieces to perform their function. The most common artillery piece in the army at 36 guns was the cast iron 10-pdr Parrott rifle, black in appearance with a distinctive thick reinforcing band of wrought iron around the breech. Produced by the West Point Foundry in New York, a 10-pdr Parrott rifle could fire a 9.5-pound shell more than a mile but problems with barrel bursts tended to make them unpopular with some gunners. The old cast bronze M1841 6-pdr smoothbore field gun, an obsolete veteran of the Mexican War with limited range, was also a common arm and 32 of these saw service at Stones River. "

"It was common practice for an individual battery to possess a mixture of different types of cannons, offering the battery commander more tactical flexibility. For example, the 5th Wisconsin Battery under Captain Oscar Pinney went into the campaign with six guns of three different types: two 10-pdr Parrott rifles, two 6-pdr M1841 smoothbores, and two 12-pdr M1841 howitzers. Each weapon offered differing capabilities; the Parrotts had a 1,900 yard-range making them best suited for firing shells or case shot while the howitzers which had a range of 1,000 yards or less were best suited for close-in work firing canister. However, a few batteries had moved to employing just one type of artillery piece; for example, the Coldwater Light Artillery (Battery A, 1st Michigan Light Artillery) went into battle with six 10-lb Parrott rifles."

"Army of the Cumberland Artillery at Stones River
36 10-pdr Parrott rifles
32 6-pdr M1841 smoothbore field guns
27 6 -pdr James rifles
24 12-pdr M1841 smoothbore howitzers
10 12-pdr M1857 smoothbore Napoleons
6 3" Rodmans/Ordnance rifles
2 6-pdr Wiard rifles
2 12-pdr Wiard rifles
139 Total guns"

Subject: Rosy's Heavy Metal: Artillery of the Army of the Cumberland


link

The Confederates used the British Whitworth breach, loading cannon. Not many. 2 were at Gettysburg.

Subject: Whitworth Rifle


link

They tried to rifle the barrels of the 6lb guns and called them James Rifles. It did not work well, as the bronze barrels did not handle the rifling well, as I've heard.

Almost all this information is out on the web and easy found, including battery compositions during certain battles.

What is the most used, most characteristic piece of artillery during the ACW.

The most common by mid-war in the eastern theater would be 12 lb. Napoleons and the light rifles (3" Ordnance and 10 lb. Parrott rifles). The western theater still had a greater variety.

And what European artillery pieces were used during the ACW and by whom?

The confederates used a few 3-inch Armstrong rifles and also 12 lb. Blakely rifles (Hart's horse artillery had Blakely's at Gettysburg).

Both union and confederates had some Whitworths. The CSA ones already noted, the USA had a 6-gun field battery during the Peninsular Campaign that proved to be of limited use because of the largely wooded terrain. They would be removed from field service and sent to coastal defense positions.

Darrell, great information on composition of guns for a western theater army!

They tried to rifle the barrels of the 6lb guns and called them James Rifles. It did not work well, as the bronze barrels did not handle the rifling well, as I've heard.

There is a lot of confusion on the "James rifles". At first the Ordnance department had the 3.67" diameter of the 6 lb. smoothbores rifled. These are not considered James rifles, but 6 lb. rifled-guns or 12 lb. rifles.

The actual James Rifles would begin with the Type I which was a 6 lb. smoothbore tube with the bore reamed out to 3.8" and then rifled. These are the 14 lb. James rifles.

The Type II James which followed had the appearance of an Ordnance rifle, though still 3.8" bore and cast in bronze.

The name James was for Charles T. James who designed the projectiles they used. Most of the rifles were actually manufactured by James Tyler Ames (a close personal friend of James) and his Ames Manufacturing Co.

Charles James died in Oct 1862 when a new shell he was developing prematurely exploded.

Kim

Kim thanks for the information in the James. Yes it is confusing as I knew they tried to rifle the 6 pound smooth bores, and it did not work. The rifling just would not hold.

Not that you mentioned this, but I believe the largest Union battery was Eli
Lilly's. (Yes think of the pharmaceutical company). They had 10 guns. They initially had 6 cast iron Rodman guns and later added 4 mule pulled mountain howitzers. That gave the battery the nickname of "the Jacka#s battery". They were officially the 18th Indiana Light Artillery. I should mention their Rodman guns were pulled by 8 horses instead of 6.

The battery at chickamauga

Subject: Captain Eli Lilly's Report on the 18th Indiana Battery at the Battle of Chickamauga – Iron Brigader


link

I forgot about the Armstrongs and Blakely. I did not know about the Union Whitworth. Interesting.

Thanks Darrell

The "Rodman" guns are actually 3-inch Ordnance rifles which were erroneously called Rodmans, even during the war, as they had a similar shape as the much larger 10" to 15" costal artillery guns designed by Thomas Rodman.

Rodman had nothing to do with the field artillery rifles as these were developed by the U.S. ordnance depart. There were no Rodman guns in the field artillery. 3-inch Ordnance rifles were not cast iron but wrought iron.

Not sure why they would use 8 horses to pull the rifles as these were some of the lightest field artillery pieces in service. It took 8 horse teams to pull 20 lb. Parrott rifles.

Kim

That was all from the website on Ind.gov on Lilly, they called them Rodman's in the article. They had a restriction on copying the exact quote. It specifically says they used the 8 instead of the normal 6.

Here is the link


PDF link

Kim, speed maybe? The 18th Indiana Battery was attached to the Lightning Brigade of mounted infantry. Maybe they felt they needed the extra horses to keep up.

Of interest, there is a breakdown of the field artillery of the Army of the Tennessee at the start of the Vicksburg Campaign.

6 lb Smoothbores x29
6 lb Rifles x4
14 lb. James Rifles 3.8" x24
12 lb Howitzers x23
24 lb. Howitzers x4
10 lb. Parrotts x14
20 lb. Parrotts x8
3" Ordnance Rifles x8

I still don't know the composition of 8 batteries, so this is not complete.

Look how many 6 lb smoothbores still in service in a main Union field army in May 1863. And the 3.8" James rifle is the main rifled cannon used in the army.

Cleburne, it does not surprise me, as I was aware of it. But I'm sure many might be. 😉

The Army of the Potomac was the "favored" army of the Union. Close to politicians and the major press. They got the best stuff first and with quantity. The other Union Armies got them next, the closer to Washington, the fastest.

It was true with Artillery and with muskets. You'll find smoothbore muskets used in more quantity and for longer in the western armies. Western being west of the allegheny mountains.

Somewhat like WW2 with Europe and the Pacific. Best went to Europe first.

Kim, speed maybe? The 18th Indiana Battery was attached to the Lightning Brigade of mounted infantry. Maybe they felt they needed the extra horses to keep up.

Maybe. Though horse artillery only used 6 horse teams.

One thing I see on the western armies not getting the newer artillery pieces as fast as the east is that it seems they had a larger proportion of 14 lb. James rifles from the beginning. Looks like very few 3-inch Ordnance also.

At Gettysburg the Union still had 4 James 14 lb. rifles in service.

Kim

@35èmeOVI
It's true that the Indians participated a little in the ACW and that they must have taken advantage of it.

For the Confederates everything had to be used, it's logical, what are the oldest pieces that were used?

Having an individual battery have a mixture of different types of guns obviously offered the battery commander greater tactical flexibility but logistically this must have been problematic…

Thus some batteries employed only one type of artillery piece as per example, the Coldwater Light Artillery (Battery A, 1st Michigan Light Artillery) which went into combat with six 10-pound Parrott rifles.

Certain European artillery used muzzle-loading rifled guns and even breech-loading rifled guns without problems, these latter firing further than steel barrels of the same type.

@KimRYoung
The most common by mid-war in the eastern theater would be 12 lb Napoleons gun (and after) this is due to its effectiveness with canisters, this being due to the fact that it was smoothbore.

@Cleburne1863
Indeed there must have been a lot of diversity in the artillery organization charts of the belligerents of the ACW, which is unfortunate because I only use 25mm Minifigs Figurines and there are not even 12 lbs Napoleons gun reference!

TMP link

TMP link

Paskal

"Having an individual battery have a mixture of different types of guns obviously offered the battery commander greater tactical flexibility but logistically this must have been problematic…"

Yes logistically it caused problems. In most cases having different types in the same battery was not a choice, it was necessitated by a lack of the same caliber being available. You will find The Army of the Potomac batteries mostly being all the same caliber by mid war. Less so in all other theaters.

Yes Indians fought for both sides. More so for the Confederacy in the West. Look up "Stand Watie". The Union even had a 5 week war with the Sioux in 1862 in Minnesota. Mostly state troops. Bad results for the Dakota Sioux.

Just some related to artillery comments.
I went to college at Jacksonville State U. There was a very statue of Major Pelham. Too bad I no longer have the books and booklets written about his unit. Fought in the Army of NVa. Killed in battle. Very popular and from a rich family.

I still have copies of two books dealing with the recruitment of troops from the Talladega-Randolph county area. Muster points and training camps were around Talladega. Almost all of the men who went artillery went to Georgia, just a few miles away to join Artillery batteries.

During the 50 year and later the Centennial in 1960s, many cities, counties, groups financed books and booklets on local history. These great for research.

@35thOVI
By the lack of availability of the same caliber? Well they just had to provide in their manufacturing contracts.

And how many of the pre-war batteries were there?

Yes, it's true that the Indians fought more for the Confederates, like the Cherokees who wanted to keep their slaves, but if others fought for other reasons, it was too late for them to benefit from it to gain their independence.

@TimePortal
Why in Georgia?

No artillery in Northern Virginia?

How many batteries before the war. Well there were those of the regulars, possibly some militia. I honestly don't know. But not a lot.

Even the Union had to ramp up from peace time. Just like WW2. So newer pieces had to be manufactured in quantity, before they would be available for the field. Worse so for the confederates.

I wouldn't look at the number of batteries but rather the number of gun barrels. According to the always reliable Wikipedia South Carolina captured 56 guns when they seized Fort Moultrie and a further 24 guns and mortars at Castle Pickney after it seceded. Over 1,000 guns were captured when Virginia troops moved into Gosport Naval Yard. Then consider all the other forts in the U.S. and all the arsenals with guns. Sure a large number were not field guns, but some were.

@35thOVI
Yes the union was not ready for such a war.

@Bill N
I would not only look at the number of guns but also the amount of ammunition.

But for the Confederates, the capture of enemy equipment was a temporary solution.

Prior to the war, carriages were not standard. Especially among militia units. Georgia used naval trucks for their gun in the War of 1812 and later. They used guns from coastal forts as needed. Still the practice in the 1850s. Maybe.

@TimePortal
Yes, given their situation,the Confederates were forced'de faire feu de tout bois',which means using all the means, all the resources at their disposal.