"13 léger - 1812" Topic

Alexis (dit "Alléxy") Picard
--- born 10 May 1792 at Châtellerault south of Tours, son of Alexis Picard, a boatman, and Marie née Braquié
--- journeyman cooper, conscript of the year 1812, reported on 27 March 1812 to the dépot of the 13e régiment d'infanterie légère at Ostende, and posted to the 2nd company (capitaine Jean-Pierre Duchamp) of the 5th (dépôt) battalion
--- departed Ostende 20 April 1812 for Madgeburg, Berlin, Kovno, Minsk and then Smolensk (arriving in October) as part of the 2e bataillon de marche, 1ere demi-brigade de marche (major en 2e Victor Destutt de Tracy), 1ere brigade (général de brigade baron Jean-Pierre Augereau) de la 29e division d'infanterie.
--- ordered to set out for Kaluga on 10 November, the brigade was surprised by a Russian force and taken prisoner
--- the fate of chasseur Picard is unknown

Physical description :
height: 155 cm (5 feet 1 inch); face: round; forehead: normal; eyes: brown; nose: large; mouth: medium; chin: round; hair and eyebrows: light chestnut

chasseur
link

link
dated to 1812
--- blue short-tailed habit with white edging, red collar, red scallop-edged cuff flaps and white-metal buttons
--- green epaulettes with red crescents
--- blue trousers
--- black gaiters edged green, no tassels
--- white vest with one row of white-metal buttons
--- briquet with brass hilt, black scabberd, green swordknot with red knot, and whitened sling
--- black shako, white cords and knots, brass lozenge badge with horn motif and small cut-out number, white/blue/center red cocade and tall green center-front mounted plume

Comment :
It would appear that the letter, witten in late Summer 1812, was sent to regimental dépôt at Ostende and then mailed to the author's parents.

=================

Alléxy …….. Picard ;
fit Chassoeur …….. dans Le Trésieme régimen
Da infantérie Legerre …….. Partan d'ostende pour allé
Sur Les frontier du …….. Rein 300 lieus
Le portré
Celle vous envoyé …….. Celle est Notre
en uniforme

Comment : It was 300 leagues from Ostende to the *Neimen*, not the Rhine.

=================

alléxy picard fils dalléxy picard marri
nier et Demarie Bra qui Samer

Comment : the paper is stamped or watermarked in the lower right corner with the mark of Emperor Alexander

=================

OSTENDE [postal mark]
À Monsieur Monsieur
Alléxy Picard, Marrinier
Demeurant a chatelerault Rue
Des Cordelliers Departeman
Delavien a Chatelerault

Mich

Good of you to dig these up!

[Not my era of interest, but being legere anyway…] -

Seems to be impeccable dress for 1812, given what we know about uniform supply/ recruits of earlier campaigns?

Not sure about the modern illustration- too well fed and too many buttons on the veste.
I was going to mention the scalloped cuff-flap…
cheers dave

Dave
What do you think of the shade of blue shown for the habit and trousers?
Kind regards
Allan

>>What do you think of the shade of blue shown for the habit and trousers?

The original artwork or the 'modern' rendition?
I wasn't trying to pan it completely, but I've tossed away many 'impressionist' illustrations from Italian and Russian posters or copiers on the net because they were just aggravating.
-

On the original I'd say he was giving an impression of a lesser shade than Royal/National/ Empire bleu.

In the modern it is trying to do the same, and in a way I can say, because I have recently done this to 25mm figures myself, rather than diluting with pure white- by using a slightly grayer shade of blue the controversial "were they/ weren't they" issued paler than de ligne dress material.

Rousellot stuck to 'Imperial' for many plates, but later he shaded differently.
Also the complete attire to '1807' dress, when given 5 years later, seems not to fit with what we are told since. Banned briquet, no epaulettes, no shako cords or plumes etc. Oh yes and grey/ whitened sideburns definitely not- especially a recruit. Now tell me mich painted this and I'll crawl away to my box…

IF we are to believe a new recruit got a complete outfit (on his say so) AND it was consistent and made in the depot this regiment surely was well dressed all the way down, at least on this occassion. No telling what the regiments war battalions were like until PaulD pulls up the inspection reports for us!

Was that where you were going Alan….?
cheers d

I linked the source of the modern image – it is not mine.

I think the modern artist mis-understood the original's depiction of the hair. I think Alléxy was trying to show his light brown hair with the darker lines. The lighter spaces may be him trying to show newly semi-visible scalp, not tanned as the face. Perthaps he was trying to show the early 19th century version of a buzz cut, appropriate for a recruit sent on a long march through the summer.
Or maybe his hair sun-bleached to light blond ? Or turned gray from the stress of army life ? In any case, I doubt powdering was involved.

I am sure that normal variation in Alléxy's accuracy of coloring, the clothe for the habit, the dye-ing and fading could account for the amount of lightness in the blue, without it being a "léger distinction". That said, it could indeed be that such a distinction is exactly what was intended.

There was a time when people suggested that Davout's corps used Bardin in 1812, because he was so disciplined or some such. OK …. here is a 1812 conscript uniformed at Ostende (a cloth making and dye-ing district) in the Spring of 1812 at a long established 1st Infantry division regimental dépôt. No Bardin. But really very complete pre-Bardin kit (with epaulettes and briquet) ? I could believe it for such a unit.

One might note that the companies of recruits from the 13e léger and 15e léger that made up Alléxy's bataillon de marche had no training except for what could be done while marching across Europe.

Thanks mich. Most illuminating

I'm still surprised by the variations in uniforms for recruits, reading so many summary descriptions on Berjauds site, where N. comments were to "send them off in shirt and breeches/ pantalons".

Can't decypher the Russ. site as its segmented into text blocks that evade the Transl. AI.

A nightcap of Grande Marnier is helping tho ;-)
d

"send them off in shirt and breeches/ pantalons".

More typical for Iberia, where there were dépôts of clothing and other materiel at Bayonne, Perpignan and Burgos which were "supposed" to be able to equip the replacements.

And, I do think one could expect the regiments of the 1st Infantry division to be among the best organized and equipped. Although the expansion to 6 battalions was ordered rather late – in April 1811 – leading to a empty dépôts as 5 battalions marched off around February 1812, and the dépôts being refilled with new conscripts in Spring 1812.

Thanks for that mich.
I hadn't 'qualified' the reason for such comments, but you may well be correct in that.

The deeper mystery, to those of us not familiar or read-up on the 'depot/ garrison' aspect of the army (Grande and other portions) is the dispersion and 'military districts' of France.

Your wording seems very modern, yet I know the Carabiniers were garrisoned at Lunéville (yes that one) and all I saw there was a statue of Lasalle! [And the most beautiful chateau of course!].

I can see a separate topic being of use if someone would like to elucidate…
cheers

I personally think it is quite good, good musket length and correct musket as well, the only slight criticism is that the bretelle / musket sling was always fixed very tightly and not hangling loose as for modern arms, he also show the old sabre hilt which was well used up till perished in Russia, I cannot see anything wrong with the blue either, it is parade dress, and well powedered hair – no

To "elucidate" on Lunéville (the château was used as a caserne, and the grounds for training and dressage) ….

Lunéville: une garnison de cavalerie …. 1733 à 1947
link
[detailed history, in French[

carabiniers at Lunéville – 1829
painted from life by Eugène Lami (1800-1890)
link

le château late 1700's
link

le château ca. 1900

le château today

====================

To "elucidate" on French dépôt organisation (from 1810), the full establishment for a light infantry regiment of 5 battalions is below. For line regiments, replace "chasseur(s)" with "fusilier(s)".

dépôt du régiment :
--- major commandant du dépôt
--- hors rang : capitaine quartier-maître trésorier, 2x chasseur ordonnance, valet-employée de civil du major
--- habillement : capitaine adjudant-major d'habillement, maître-tailleur, maître-cordonnier, maître-armurier, maître-guêtrier, 8x enfant apprentis, artistes-employées de civil
--- infirmerie : aide-chirurgien, chirurgien sous-aide, infimiers-employées de civil
--- école de tambours : caporal-tambour, 12x élève-tambour
--- instruction aux armes [tiré de la 4e compagnie de chasseurs] : sergent-major maître d'armes, 2x caporal prévôt
--- instruction d'enfants de troupe [tiré de la 4e compagnie de chasseurs] : capitaine de 2e classe, 2x sergent, 4x corporal, 48x enfant en bas-âge
--- femmes de troupe : vivandière, 3x blanchisseuse
--- détachement en recrutement [sur complément, exemple pour la département de la Moselle] : capitaine, 2x lieutenant, 2x sous-lieutenant, 7x sergent, 14x caporal

5e bataillon de dépôt :
--- capitaine de 2e classe faisant function de commandant du bataillon [tiré de la 1ere compagnie de chasseurs]
--- hors rang : capitaine adjudant-major, 2x adujdant sous-officier, 2x sergent guide-général
--- batterie : 8x tambour
--- femmes de troupe : vivandière, 3x blanchisseuse

1ere compagnie de chasseurs [pour un bataillon de marche] :
--- lieutenant faisant function de capitaine commandant, 2x sous-lieutenant, sergent-major, 3x sergent, 8x corporal, 120x chasseur
2e compagnie de chassuers [pour un bataillon de marche] :
--- capitaine de 3e classe commandant, lieutenant, 2x sous-lieutenant, 2x sergent, 8x corporal, 120x chasseur
--- garde d'enseigne vert du bataillon : sergent-major port-enseigne, 2x sergent, 4x caporal-fourrier, 2x chasseur vieillard
3e compagne de chasseurs [pour un bataillon de marche] :
--- capitaine de 3e classe commandant, lieutenant, 2x sous-lieutenant, sergent-major, 3x sergent, 8x corporal, 120x chasseur
4e compagnie de chasseurs [pour garnisons aux ports, navires et baîtments] :
--- lieutenant faisant function de capitaine commandant, 2x sous-lieutenant, 2x sergent, 2x corporal, 120x chasseur

Hmmm,
ok I was referencing 'where' not so much the people…

You say 1er Division… never seen that in period-speak.
Where/ how was a 'Division' in depot?
d

I am a lttle confused ….

I noted that the 13e léger was part of the "1st Infantry division" – a unit of Davout's 1st Corps – alluding to Davout's reputation for good organisation and training. The 13e léger's dépôt was subordinated to the regiment (and thence brigade, division and corps).

Administratively, Ostende was in the arrondissement of Bruges, in the départment of the Lys. Together the départments of the Nord, the Lys and the Pas-de-Calais made up the "16e division militaire" in 1812. There were then 32 such "division militaires" for the military administration of the French interior and territories annexed to France.

Each division militaire had a général de division commandant (allowed 3 aides de camp), an adjudant commandant chef d'état major (with 3 captaines adjoints d'état-major), 1 général de brigade (allowed 2 aides de camp) per département, an inspecteur aux revues and a commissaire ordonnateur. The number of départements per division militaire varied from 1 to 7. They were to supervise military affairs in their territory : recruitment, pensions, military police/legal, procurement, logistics, territorial forces, fortified places, etc.)

"1er Division" would be "1ere division" or, better, "1ere division d'infanterie" in French period-speak.

The "1ere division militaire" was, by the way, for the 7 départements around Paris, and had an special, larger organisation.

Mich
Sorry I thought you were referencing a 'LOCATION' or geographic division, not realising you meant Davouts Corps structure.

Ok, so the substantive question is: "The 13e léger's dépôt was subordinated to the regiment" where is that depot? And each other 'corps' as part of this Army Corps?

The staff is great when at home (depot), but what can it do to those functions when actually on campaign and 2000kms away from it? Surely duties changed spectacularly?
Regards d

I am still confused.

Previously, I listed the staff and functions of a French infantry dépôt. Except for sending companies to the "front" as replacements, and taking in new inductees for equipping and training, the dépôt staff (with very rare exceptions) stayed in the dépôt.

For our example of the 13e léger in 1811/1812, this was at Ostende. Their major Paul Hippolyte Alexandre Baume (Digne en Provence 1762 – Metz 1842), officier de la Légion d'honneur, was long-experienced, having held this post since January 1804. Their capitaine quartier-maître trésorier Charles François Leroux (Lorient 1768 – Moulins 1829), membre de la Légion d'honneur, was even of longer tenure, dating back through the regiment's predecessor formations to May 1793.

The "front" was where the bataillons de guerre were located, along with the regimental headquarters, the artillery "company" when so authorized, the regimental band and a regimental train for logistics. In peacetime, some of the bataillons de guerre might be posted at or near the dépôt, but there was little real peacetime.

For our example, the new 6th battalion de guerre of the 13e léger was forming at the dépôt in May 1811 (the 5e was the dépôt battalion). The other 4 battalions were with the 1st Infantry division billeted in and around Stade, about 25 km west of Hambourg. By June 1811, they had 3 battalions in Weismar and 1 in Lübeck, with the new 6e battailon on the march from Ostende to join them in August.

The formation of the 6th battalions was ordered in April 1811. The dépôt would have been stocked with conscripts of 1810 (then with about a year's training) and conscripts of 1811 (no training), some cadre returning from long-tern leave or hospital stays, and some very green lieutenants promoted from military schools or the gendarmes d'ordonnance (not from the ranks). These battaiions did rather poorly in Russia, and were often broken up as replacements at the first opportunity.

The conscripts of 1812, such as our Alléxy, had it worse. Utterly untrained, without cadres, sent out in temporary multi-regiment battalions that should never have had contact with the enemy, they rather evaporated when the retreat met them on the march.

If you wanted to know which régiments had their dépôts in, for example, the 16e division militaire (as of June 1811, but changes were not common) ….
--- 13e léger à Ostende (bataillons de guerre au 1er corps de la Grande armée en 1812)
--- 17e ligne à Lille (bataillons de guerre au 1er corps de la Grande armée en 1812)
--- 19e ligne à Douai (bataillons de guerre au 2e corps de la Grande armée en 1812)
--- 25e ligne à Landrecies (bataillons de guerre au 1er corps de la Grande armée en 1812)
--- 28e ligne à Saint-Omer (bataillons de guerre en Espagne)
--- 36e ligne à Calais (bataillons de guerre en Espagne)
--- 51e ligne à Lille (bataillons de guerre en Espagne)
--- 55e ligne à Dunkerque (bataillons de guerre en Espagne)
--- 75e ligne à Lille (bataillons de guerre en Espagne)
--- 3e suisse à Lille (bataillons de guerre au 2e corps de la Grande armée en 1812)
--- 14e cuirassiers à Lille (ex- hollandais, escadrons de guerre au 3e corps de cavalerie de réserve de la Grande armée en 1812)
--- 11e dragons à Hesdin (escadrons de guerre en Espagne)
--- 1er chasseurs à cheval à Maubeuge (escadrons de guerre au 1er corps de la Grande armée en 1812)
--- 11e hussards à Arras (escadrons de guerre au 3e corps de la Grande armée en 1812)

If you wanted to know where the régiments of Davout's 1er corps had their dépôts (as of June 1811, but changes were not common) ….
--- 7e léger dépôt à Huningue, 5e division militaire
--- 13e léger dépôt à Ostende, 16e division militaire
--- 15e léger dépôt à Paris, 1ere division militaire
--- 33e léger dépôt à Wesel, 25e division militaire (ex- hollandais)
--- 12e ligne dépôt à Mézières, 2e division militaire
--- 17e ligne dépôt à Lille, 16e division militaire
--- 21e ligne dépôt à Juliers, 25e division militaire
--- 25e ligne dépôt à Landrecies, 16e division militaire
--- 30e ligne dépôt à Mayence, 26e division militaire
--- 33e ligne dépôt à Mayence, 26e division militaire
--- 48e ligne dépôt à Anvers (Antwerp), 24e division militaire
--- 57e ligne dépôt à Strasbourg, 5e division militaire
--- 61e ligne dépôt à Worms, 26e division militaire
--- 85e ligne dépôt à Coblenz, 26e division militaire
--- 108e ligne dépôt à Anvers (Antwerp), 24e division militaire
--- 111e ligne dépôt à Spire, 26e division militaire
--- 127e ligne dépôt à Hambourg (1812), 32e division militaire (ex- gardes d'Hambourg et de Lübeck)
--- 1er chasseurs à cheval dépôt à Maubeuge, 16e division militaire
--- 2e chasseurs à cheval dépôt à Tournai, 24e division militaire
--- 3e chasseurs à cheval dépôt à Joinville, 18e division militaire

I wonder, how does this 'individual' [asking broadly of the reading public] dovetail with the discovery-discussion cited by PLD TMP link
for the 13eme Legere in green?

cheers

"Every item on this [green] uniform from its colour, to leather work, can be supported by archive sources from the 13e Légère's own paper work dating to 1814. …. Blackened cow hide cross belts were regulation yet we see re-enactors with buff from April 1813."

Our naïve portrait by Alléxy was of his uniform issued in Spring 1812 and/or as worn that Summer.
No contradiction, I would say.

Only thing I know about the 13e Legere is that they were almost always brigaded with the 17e Ligne. As were the 8e Hussars and 16e Chasseurs. Does anyone know of other twinnings?

Relevance R Alley?

>>No contradiction, I would say.
I wasnt suggesting any contradiction- would you issue brand new sparkling uniforms, then create ANOTHER brand new sparkling uniform a year later in the hardest campaign seen in 20+ years of warfare?

All we're told about the penury of the regiments, ministry etc. and this is a contradiction!

Of course, there is the 'mindset' that everything happened to everyone, when of course plainly it did not! Blinkered vision…

I don't have Dawsons book but I wonder what 'his' timeline is and numbers of issues…
d

Flushing the 5th battalions and the 1812 conscripts out of the dépôts in Spring 1812 may have used up the materiel resources of the regiments and arsenals just as much as the personnel resources. Those issued their new uniforms in early 1811 to early 1812 were in large measure dead, captured, wounded, retired or survivors of very tough campaigns two years later, the "wear-out" period allowed for a habit. So yes, "another" new uniform would be needed for the army of 1813.

Green would be cheaper than blue, especially cheaper than dark indigo blue. Perhaps leather blackened could hide more defects than whitened.

>>reported on 27 March 1812 to the dépot of the 13e régiment

Ok, and since we don't know~ disappeared as POW…

I'd bet something on mass produced 'Flanquers' cloth being used up as well. The cut is down to the 'regiment' unless they (Ministry) also redeployed milliners to create 'uniforms' rather than just cloth, improving the industrialisation of the process.
Perhaps…
d

One thing to bear in mind maybe is the quality of dyes in the period.Batches of material could vary in colour plus dye fixing was maybe also an issue. I volunteer in a textiles museum so will ask how good was quality control and dye fixers in the period.
Another issue is wear and tear especially during a campaign. Its akin to a plan of battle which lasts just a couple of hours.The regulations say on thing but practical considerations come first to the men.

"Ok, and since we don't know ~ disappeared as POW"

Well, our man Alléxy may have been among the 25% of his demi-brigade than fell out along the march from Ostende to Lyakovo, the village where they were surrendered. If he survived the action at Lyakovo, he went with the prisoners on a 950 km march southeast to Tambov in south Russia. He may or may not have lived until the repatriations of Autumn 1814. And if he survived, he may have taken up the offer of Russian citizenship with some tax exemptions given French "other ranks" prisoners. About 1/3 of the prisoners did accept. Our Alléxy may have ended his days шт Ефьищм as master cooper / бондарный мастеръ Пикаръ Алексій Алексѣевичъ.

Note that a goodly number of the conscipts in the 1ere demi-brigade de marche were from Paris and its environs. Also, 1/6th of them were Dutch.

Excellent article on the fate of General Augereau and the 1ere demi-brigade de marche :
link
Warning : the "verdict" on the French senior commanders was the same as Napoleon's : quite negative.

Our French ….

état-major de la 1ere brgade de la 1ere division de marche
--- général de brigade commandant baron Jean-Pierre Augereau (Paris 1772 – Paris 1836), frère du maréchal
--- capitaine aide-de-camp Godart
--- capitaine aide-de-camp Julien Hadaris
--- commissaire des guerres de 2e classe Charles d'Arnaud (Paris 1789 – Paris 1863)

1ere demi-brigade de marche (1.VII.1812) *
major en 2e Victor d'Estutt de Tracy (Paris 1781 – Paray-le-Frésil près Moulins 1864)
1er bataillon de marche
--- 1ere, 2e & 3e compagnies du 5e bataillon du 7e léger (10/428) dépôt à Huningue / conscrits des Ardennes et de la Seine
--- 1ere, 2e & 3e compagnies du 5e bataillon du 33e léger (11/431) dépôt à Givet / conscrits d'Hollande
2e bataillon de marche
--- 1ere, 2e ** & 3e compagnies du 5e bataillon du 13e léger (8/377) dépôt à Ostende / conscrits de la Vienne
--- 1ere, 2e & 3e compagnies du 5e bataillon du 15e léger (7/425) dépôt à Paris / conscrits de l'Indre-et-Loire et du Puy-de-Dôme
3e bataillon de marche
--- 1ere & 2e compagnies du 5e bataillon du 12e ligne (5/280 ***) dépôt à Mézières / conscrits de la Seine
--- 1ere & 2e compagnies du 5e bataillon du 17e ligne (5/332) dépôt à Lille / conscrits de la Seine-Inférieure et de l'Eure
--- 1ere & 2e compagnies du 5e bataillon du 25e ligne **** (5/300) dépôt à Landrecies / conscrits de l'Eure

* apprently there were no (!) chefs de bataillon, capitaines adjudants-major, & adjudants sous-officiers for these so-called "bataillons"
** capitaine commandant Jean-Pierre Duchamp
*** 1 company absent on 1.VII.1812
**** detached, captured on 1.XI.1812

for 3 bataillons de march ….
--- establishment 3.IV.1812 : 54/2700
--- present under arms 1.VII.1812 : 51/2573
--- remaining to be killed or captured 1-10.IX.1812 : ~23/~1850

Our Russians ….

At Lyakovo on 10.XI.1812, Augereau and the 1ere demi-brigade de marche were attacked by ~2,000 troopers of the "Flying Corps" under the command of General-Major & General-Adjutant Graf Vasily Vasilyevich Orlov-Denisov (Pyatizbyansky Station in the lands of the Don Cossacks 1775 – Khar'kov 1843) :
--- Bykhalov-1's Don Cossack regiment
--- Ilovaysky-9's Don Cossack regiment
--- Ilovaysky-11's Don Cossack regiment
--- Yagody-2's Don Cossack regiment
--- Mel'nikov-4's Don Cossack regiment
--- Trailin's Don Cossack regiment
--- Nizhinsk Dragoon regiment
--- Don Cossack horse artillery – 4x 6-lber

Other Russians near-by ….

Three other Russan formations, each of 500-600 men, acted to isolate Augereau and the 1ere demi-brigade de marche from the remainder of the 1ere division de marche, while defeating ~5 escadrons de marche de cuirassiers & chasseurs à cheval and capturing several train vehicles.

Colonel Aleksandr Nikitich Selavin's Partizan detachment
--- 1 squadron Sumy Hussar regiment
--- 2 squadrons Akhtyka Hussar regiment
--- Grevtsov-2's Don Cossack regiment
--- 1 company 20th Jäger regiment
--- horse artillery from the 24th Replacement Artillery brigade – 2x 6-lber

Colonel Denis Vasilyevich Davydov's Partizan detachment
--- Popov-13's Don Cossack regiment
--- 1st Bug Cossack regiment
--- 1/2 squadron Akhtyka Hussar regiment

Captain Aleksandr Samoylovich Figner's Partizan detachment
--- 1/2 squadron Lithuanian Lancer regiment
--- 1/2 squadron Polish Lancer regiment
--- volunteers from the Sumy Hussars, Novorossiysk dragoons and various Cossack regiments

I bow to the power of your insight and knowledge mich, just amazing…
Maybe mike should add this angle to his proposed theses…
d