"Paul Dawson Confection Drouot uniforms" Topic
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MarbotsChasseurs | 01 Dec 2020 4:08 p.m. PST |
Hello everyone, I somehow stumbled upon this amazing research done by Paul Dawson for a new book on the French infantry 1804-1815. For those who do not have Facebook, I will post the pictures here. I believe the book was supposed to come out this year, but whenever it is available I will be first to order! Seems to be the definitive book on French Line Infantry uniforms in my opinion! 1e Ligne Grenadier Tambour "As we work through the 137 regiments of Line in the French Army by 1814 for a forthcoming publication, the archive of the 1e de Ligne allows us to present a drummer of the grenadier company, 1st battalion 1808-1809. The uniform had a green collar, revers and cuffs, edged with 1pouce wide yellow worsted lace. Only 8 such habits were made, so clearly were only destined for grenadiers. The capotes were made from grey tricot. Bearskins were adopted for grenadiers in the course of 1808, and sapeurs were formed in the regiment at this time also."
59e Ligne Drummer, "Archive research offers a wonderful tool to recreate the dress of the army. As part of the research for a series of groundbreaking books on the dress of the Line 1786-1815, I found in the paperwork of the 59e de Ligne a mass of data about how the regiment clothed itself in the Peninsular war. From this, we are able to present the drummers of the regiment as they appeared in 1808-1811."
65e Ligne Sapeur and Tambour "Our research on the Line Infantry has flagged up these two uniforms for the 65e de Ligne. The sapeur, we know from archive documents had red bearskin cords and uniquely white epaulettes with red crescents. Sapeurs were created in the Line in 1806, but were far from universal: not every regiment of Line had sapeurs. Our drummer has aurore facings, adopted in 1806 by the regiment. Aurore is a shade close to scarlet and is not a shade of yellow. We know from the regiments paper archive that the habit of the drummers was adorned with 1pouce wide yellow worsted lace, we show here."
75e Ligne Voltigeur "Drummer, voltigeur company 75e de Ligne late 1807. The paper archive of the 75e is remarkably complete for the period 1805-1808 for the regiments clothing. It allows us to present this uniform. The revers are pink, as are the cuff facings and tail lining with green epaulettes and chamois collar. A quite remarkable colour ensemble. The archive has a wealth of details for the dress of the band and regimental sapeurs."
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MarbotsChasseurs | 01 Dec 2020 5:21 p.m. PST |
I put the incorrect one of the 1e Ligne Grenadier tambour. The first one is a Grenadier drummer of the 40e Ligne in 1807. Below is the 1e Ligne Grenadier
His Facebook page is link |
Lilian | 01 Dec 2020 5:38 p.m. PST |
An other "teasing" about Paul Lindsay Dawson's forthcoming serie of books opened here The Green uniform of the French Light Infantry 1814 TMP link should be a serie of 6 to 7 volumes of the French Army 1789-1815
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MarbotsChasseurs | 01 Dec 2020 5:54 p.m. PST |
Lilian, Thank you for that! I now remember that was an interesting thread. I look forward to his work. |
SHaT1984 | 01 Dec 2020 10:50 p.m. PST |
I should say Michael I was quite disturbed by the description then illustration at first. You may have cleared that up, but I feel there is a lot of blood to flow yet. As yet I've never seen his books, but I'm somewhat concerned by what I've seen recorded. E.g. 1>>Aurore is a shade close to scarlet and is not a shade of yellow. Really? I'd not place the colour it on the 'scarlet' scale ever. 'Salmon pink' is what it usually/ habitually gets referred to as, a much lower scale of red, even by Rousellot IIRC. I'd like to know what its Pantone match would be in the real world. And then apparently a self-contradiction, citing aurore, but then explaining all about yellow lace and what we've shown here. Call me confuzzed. E.g. 2>>The revers are pink, as are the cuff facings and tail lining with green epaulettes … Really? I'd place that colour [plate] on the mid-crimson side, not pink. And "tail lining"- don't we call those the retroussis or turnbacks 'en anglaise', because thats where that material comes from. And referencing "epaulettes" after "tail lining" isn't clever. While the habite is implied, how is someone ignorant of the actual clothing design supposed to know? Notes- 3- good to see the preponderance of grenadiers with white cords and racquettes, far from the 'impression' of always being red (scarlet). 4- drummer of the 59e could be anywhere, I see nothing in that uniform that couldn't have been European, so where/ why the citation about 'Peninsular' dress. 5- maybe I have to paint a voltigeur drummer now for my 75e! Well, let's see where this ensemble travels… regards d |
von Winterfeldt | 01 Dec 2020 11:39 p.m. PST |
Who made the colour drawings`? |
Lilian | 27 Aug 2021 11:05 a.m. PST |
hello some news from Paul Lindsay Dawson Coming in the first half of 2022. Scheduled for release next year will be the most comprehensive review of Napoleon's cavalry 1811-1815 ever compiled. Based on thousands of archive documents housed in across three archives in Paris, every regiment of the mounted arm's uniform and equipment will be described. Based on over a decade of archive research, study of extant items of clothing and equipment in museums and private collections, as well as period art work, for the first time, the definitive guide to what the mounted arm wore for during the second half of the 1e Empire will be presented. With images of over 150 items of original kit, every regiment of line cavalry as well as the train, horse artillery and obscure mounted units, will have uniform reconstructions for trumpeters, elite company, centre company and other specialists. Over 200 original art works will also be reproduced in a lavish, full colour hardback. We are indebted to Jose Luis Canibe for taking on the task of illustrating every regiment in the French Army 1811-1815, over 300units! This pair of books – the second looks at the foot troops – will be the 'defacto' guide to what the mounted arm actually wore, and once and for all answer the question 'Did the Bardin regulations exist'. The mounted arm will be followed by the Line and Light Infantry in the second part of 2022. |
Lilian | 03 Sep 2021 3:29 p.m. PST |
Some further notes from Paul Lindsay Dawson about Infanterie Légère My work on the Infanterie Légère shows categorically, that of the 37 regiments, just 2 – the 7e and 10- had any Bardin regulation clothing in use in summer 1814, and that in 1815, perhaps only the 9e had 'Bardin' kit as adopted 8 February 1815. The 13e were still dressed in Green under the 1814 regulation. Just the 7e and 11e Légère unit had carabinier shakos in 1815. The 7e, 9e, 12e, 13e had black cross belts. Most members of the Legere still wore pre-1812 uniforms in 1815. The 2e still had its carabiniers in bonnet a poil at Waterloo. 'Bardin' is largely 'fake news'. Lovely drawings, but unless you are depicting specific regiments, then 'Bardin' is not applicable to the legere. Plus, the capotes were brown, blanc piqué de bleu, white or grey, very few had beige. about Voltigeurs Of the Line, around 60% had no voltigeurs with distinctive clothing till 1808, some regiments never formed voltigeur companies. Before 1808, voltigeurs with "yellow " collars and epaulettes are a-typical. Primacy of regimental archives demonstrate that regardless of the what the war ministry said, Colonels did their own things. The only way to study the subject of clothing is to look at every single regiment, the regulations and all the war ministry archive material: most of the adjuncts to the regulations were never printed in Berriet Legislation Militaire etc. by 1814 just 44 regiments out of 132 had voltigeurs with chamois or yellow collars, and other distinctions. Of these, 5 regiments had yellow facings and not chamois. The whole notion that voltigeurs had chamois collars and yellow aigrettes across all regiments because the Bardin regulations say they should, is clearly an unsupportable paradigm. Indeed, the November 1812 amendments to Bardin removed aigrettes from voltigeurs, so the lack of these items is exactly as one would expect. Furthermore, not a single voltigeur schako is recorded in the army from 1812-1815. Voltigeurs were not skirmishers nor trained as such. By 1814/15 the term fusilier, voltigeur, grenadier was fairly meaningless. just like 'Young Guard'. It meant far more in status than any reflection on training, appearance, combat effectiveness. Most regiments did not actually dress grenadiers or voltigeurs any different to fusiliers. If you read the inspection returns of the 1er Légère, and of the Armée du Nord as a whole, one quickly realises that many regiments were incapable of battalion level drill, and were struggling with Ecole de Peloton, let alone company level drill. This is an army of child veterans that survived typohoid in 1813 and winter 1814, filled out with yet more conscripts. The Armée du Nord of 1815, like the Grande Armée of 1805 was to quote a WW1 song 'we are Fred Karno's Army -we cannot fight, we cannot march, what bloody use are we'. The Armée du Nord collapsed at Waterloo because it had little to no combat experience – the thesis of Commandant Trochu and Ardant du Picq are relevant here as is Joachim Ambert on the psychology of the French Army. As soon as one scrapes off the 'gloss and mythos' of the Armée du Nord, one sees that it was a fragile combat force that could basically fire its muskets and march in a column, and formation in Line was doomed to failure due to lack of training, likewise battalion level formations were best avoided. By 1813 voltigeurs were short men who would not normally be conscripted. Not elite soldiers, and not trained as skirmishers. as pictures in the thread are mostly musicians drummers têtes de colonne drawn from PLD's researches, a last sentence to medidate… he found Some truly hideous colour combinations used 99% of representations of bands and drummers are TOTAL FICTION :))) I am afraid that most books plates and pictures on the web should join the recycling branch after PLD's volumes wil be published several Light Infantry Regiments such as 2e 11e 13e were in green painting by Keith Rocco based from Paul Lindsay Dawson's investigations on the 13e
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SHaT1984 | 04 Sep 2021 2:57 a.m. PST |
Interesting. Also sounds expensive. Careful tho, sounds like a promo and the Chief Censor may not be happy with preloading. I guess if you're gonna attempt to overturn 220 years of history as we know it, now is as good as any time… d |
Brechtel198 | 04 Sep 2021 5:43 a.m. PST |
As the Armee du Nord had to reuniform many regiments, it is highly likely that some of the old green uniforms from the two Flanquer regiments of the Imperial Guard, which were not reactivated in 1815, were used for that purpose. |
Brechtel198 | 04 Sep 2021 5:46 a.m. PST |
"Voltigeurs were not skirmishers nor trained as such. By 1814/15 the term fusilier, voltigeur, grenadier was fairly meaningless. just like 'Young Guard'. It meant far more in status than any reflection on training, appearance, combat effectiveness. Most regiments did not actually dress grenadiers or voltigeurs any different to fusiliers." I would tend to disagree. After the failure of the French cavalry charges at Waterloo, the infantry attacked the allied line in grandes bandes, large groups of skirmishers. This tends to be overlooked… |
Brechtel198 | 04 Sep 2021 5:47 a.m. PST |
I am afraid that most books plates and pictures on the web should join the recycling branch after PLD's volumes wil be published That statement is based on what? Everything should be trashed because of 'new' research? I don't think so… |
Lilian | 04 Sep 2021 10:40 a.m. PST |
If we are talking about the topic of this thead, that is to say realities of the uniformological appearance of the French Army, well probably definitively yes quite a lot…when I read Paul Lindsay Dawson and his investigations and observations applied to a great number of well-known pictures and lavishly plates from books and artists considered as usual references until now for many people, wargamers, reenactors, TMP members etc they are like night and day …the number of inaccuracies… There were several Regiments of Dragoons still clothed with their former blue cavalry uniforms until 1805-1806, one still dressed as Hussars, the white extended to a greater number of Line Infantry regiments than expected, the brown for several regiments in Spain more a myth than anything else (88e de ligne 13e Cuirassiers and others) the 21e Chasseurs dressed with Line Infantry uniforms, the real distinctive regimental colours for several Cavalry regiments not at all those assigned by the regulations… about the fact that 99% of representations of bands and drummers are total fiction one time I saw a Rousselot's plate if I remember about musicians considered as reliable by him, well the only matter was such uniform doesn't match at all with the band of the regiment in question but to an other regiment… :/ :0 |
Gazzola | 04 Sep 2021 11:19 a.m. PST |
So this is going to be a series of books without any faults or inaccuracies and therefore the ultimate in French army uniform information? Lucky us, eh? LOL |
Gazzola | 04 Sep 2021 11:19 a.m. PST |
So this is going to be a series of books without any faults or inaccuracies and therefore the ultimate in French army uniform information? Lucky us, eh? LOL |
Oliver Schmidt | 04 Sep 2021 11:56 a.m. PST |
Probably the book is based on the inspection reports of the regiments. Therefore, if the info is transcribed correctly from the handwritten manuscripts, it has the value of reliable contemporary eyewitness accounts. Of course, if uniforms and equipment are described for the day of the inspection, we don't always know how long they had been worn before, and at what time they were changed or replaced afterwards. But I reckon these books will greatly add to our knowledge. And if a uniform artist gives some info which contradicts the contemporary reports, the chance is high that the artist is wrong and not the inspecting general. |
Gazzola | 04 Sep 2021 12:09 p.m. PST |
Don't know why two identical posts appeared? Would the artist be in the wrong? Perhaps what is down on paper on what should or should not be given did not always happen? And perhaps the artists (or some of them at least) only painted what they actually saw and what actually existed in reality, despite rules and regulations? Who knows? Considering there is already some disagreement on what a colour actually is, it will be interesting to see how they fare? And I guess the more Napoleonic titles the better, although I am still determined not to buy any more books until the end of September. LOL |
MarbotsChasseurs | 04 Sep 2021 12:53 p.m. PST |
It should be a good book and, hopefully, will include some of the information on the officers of these regiments. It is fascinating to read the inspection reports for 1806 and 1807, and how they describe the Colonel's opinion on certain officers and their abilities. Granted, some of the words are very challenging to read. I would say that until one actually reads the original documents, I would not judge so harshly of material that goes against what has been already presented. My interest is in officers and what happened to them (casualties), and I consider A. Martinien is the most important author on this subject, yet even he makes multiple mistakes, but he did not have the access to technology, multiple databases, and every single record like we do today. Paul is looking at the documents that were available to many of the most famous artists, but most likely they didn't take such an exhaustive deep dive into every record that could be found on uniforms for each regiment as Paul has. I have seen what is available for the 17e Ligne, and I couldn't imagine that amount of work needed to complete every regiment as the 17th is over 459 pictures(pictures he took himself in the archives, which usually contain more than one document per picture and contain multiple paragraphs) of material just for 1808-1812. As Mr. Schmidt said, it will be a valuable resource for first-person accounts. Just my two cents, Michael |
Lilian | 04 Sep 2021 3:31 p.m. PST |
About Dragoons still in blue Cavalerie Cuirassiers Chasseurs and others regimental colour regulations he wrote I have read the paper archive of EVERY regiment in the French Army 1800-1815. I can tell you for fact that dragoons were using banderole-porte-carabine and light cavalry carbines by the middle of the Empire accross a whole range of regiments. 3e Dragons we find banderole-porte-carabine, and broadcloth pantalons in use in February 1808. The Elite company of the 3e however did have bonnet a poil, but sufficient epaulettes existed for each man to have a pair. the 5e from its paper archive had blue broadcloth, and used banderole-porte-mousqueton at the time of the February 1808 inspection (and) green broadcloth charivari. the 3e and 5e being a case in point. The Fusil de Dragon was one of a number of firearms used by Dragoon regiments at the time of the 1808 inspections. Dragoons, by and large, by 1808 had already abandoned culotte de peau for campaign use in favour of broad cloth pantalons, again we see some regiments totally equipped their men with epaulettes. When we look at reviews made 1807-1808 and again in 1810, we find that some Dragoon regiments had adopted light cavalry cloth schabraques, or even full sheepskins and abandoned the Housse. the 9e Dragons when reviewed at the end of 1807 had 203 light cavalry sheepskin schabraques in use and 170 light cavalry carbines for the elite company; the 11e Dragons reviewed in August 1810 had put its men into bottes a la suvarov the 12e Dragons had in 1807 540 pairs of epaulettes in use, 107 bearskins and 170 light cavalry carbines and belts, every man had beige broadcloth pantalons reinforced with leather; the 22e Dragons carried heavy cavalry sabres till it was disbanded in 1814, being from from the 13e de cavalerie, the 26e Dragons were still dressed in blue coats at the end of 1805 into 1806, again retained from the 17e de cavalerie. the 27e Dragons marched to war in 1805 with men in the old cavalerie chapeau and blue habits, and in 1808 had its men in green broadcloth pantalons, had replace culotte de peau with white broadcloth culottes and every man had a light cavalry schrabraque the 30e Dragons in August 1805 had its men in dolmans, colpacks, helmets and red schako. The 30e still had hussar colpacks in 1808 for the elite company With regard detached squadrons. In 1809 the detached squadrons of the 15e and 25e were authorised to form elite companies, 1162 francs being allowed for bearskins, 12 pairs of sapeurs epaulettes costing 44 francs a pair were purchased – these had copper scale shoulder boards – a long with 12 axes, aprons, and axes cases. 17 light cavalry carbines were issued to the sapeurs and trumpeters. So the 15e and 25e had TWO elite companies. So with a raft of evidence from primary sources written in the epoch, which shows dragoons did not appear as we imagine them to be the 29e Dragons carried light cavalry sabres, so too the 1er The 1er Dragons in 1808 had nothing but leather work for light cavalry, ceinturon included! The dragoons are a 'minefield', like the chasseurs a cheval, as each colonel did their own thing. General La Houssaye 1806-1809 wrote reams of notes on the problems he encountered: he went as far as to 'giving approval' to the use of charivari or pantalons in lieu of culotte de peau, and to abolish manchette du botte ' as the culotte de peau and manchettes were easily damaged, hard to keep clean, and costly extravagances'. We also know Colonels did not adhere to regulation when it came to facing colours and their distribution: so rather than crimson we find Amaranthe, in stead of Rose foncé (dark pink), we find Rose clair (light pink) and a whole host of other unique changes that the Colonels had introduced. From my perspective, many regiments of dragoons, chasseurs, and also cuirassiers simply disregarded the regulations, why else would the 7e Chasseurs have pelisse in 1814 worn with dolmans, which were abolished in 1806, and chasseurs never officially had pelisse anyhow! The 5e Chasseurs had colpacks, dolmans and buff ochre belts in 1814. the entire 21e Chasseurs a cheval were dressed in infantry habits, culottes, gaiters and shoes and armed with infantry briquet due to shortages of clothing and weapons The 9e Cuirassiers still wore habit a revers in 1814 and had 'totally disregarded' the Bardin regulation and so too the 11e Cuirassiers which had habit a revers and had yellow facings, same with the 10e, the 10e cuirassier adopted 'Wine Lees' in 1814 and not Pink. Indeed the 10e never used pink till the 100days The 7e Cuirassiers likewise had habit a revers and 'pale yellow' facings and not the regulation yellow. I guess thats the issue when it comes to archive work: the answers are controversial because it shows 'what we think we know' is wrong. my research so far has flagged up that 90% of received wisdom on cuirassier uniform is wrong, virtually everything written about Bardin suffers from gross over simplifications and incredible leaps of assumption, particularly for drummers, voltigeurs, grenadiers and sapeurs. Paul Lindsay Dawson I can't resist to a last sentence to meditate (bis) after a major "controversy" and great discussion about the sky blue instead of white pelisse of 5e Hussards My research on the hussars has already shown up how little we actually know about hussar uniforms in general. The 7e Hussards had trumpeters in white dolmans faced rose pink in 1805! The 5e Hussards trumpeters were in Imperial Livery in 1815. ;))) |
SHaT1984 | 04 Sep 2021 7:16 p.m. PST |
I'm only interested in the 1805-07 period of the Grande Armée, but I'm hardly surprised by any of it. Some of the wording is [a little] imprecise, which is a concern; but I've been showing small snippets of similar information, like the 'cavalry' uniforms impressed for use by the 'new' Cuirassier amalgamations trompettes post 1803 and in still in use 1805/06. Fundamentally, the rule of economics does and always has applied- material is retained and used regardless of 'rules' or otherwise demanding replacement. Another is that in times of great need- you use whatever is available for issue. d |
Brechtel198 | 05 Sep 2021 4:49 a.m. PST |
When studying uniforms of any period, I have found the following by Roger Forthoffer useful to keep in mind: 'There are three sorts of uniforms for every period of history: those described in the uniform regulations; those shown by the artists of that period; and what the soldiers actually wore!' When studying period uniforms, the above should be taken seriously. It has also already been clearly demonstrated that when cavalry units were converted from one branch to another, the old uniform was probably worn for some time. The new 30th Dragoon Regiment, for example, when converted from the 12th Hussar Regiment in 1803 had to wear their hussar dolmans until they wore out because of a shortage of funding before they were issued their new dragoon uniform coats. The old 1st Cavalry Regiment still wore their old coats after being converted to cuirassiers. The 5th Cuirassiers still wore their old cavalry coats with their new armor as late as 1803-1804. There was an experiment to put the dragoons into sky blue uniforms instead of their usual green. One squadron was given the new ones, but it was decided to keep the old color. And uniforms faded on active service and some dies were considered 'fugitive' as they faded quicker than others. To get a good dark green of regulation shade, uniforms were first dyed dark blue, then yellow to get the proper shade. I've seen a chasseur a cheval uniform that was dark blue. That was because the yellow had faded and the green was gone. 'Since the colors would fade, most units used the darkest tints available: 'For example, the dark green of the chasseurs [a cheval] of the Guard is almost black, the sky blue of the 5th Hussars is almost royal blue: in general the tints are much darker than they usually are shown.'' John Elting, Swords Around a Throne, 441 from a letter to Col Elting from Roger Forthoffer after examining original sample uniforms in the Brunon Collection. Sometimes on campaign the troops had to wear what could be found as their uniforms with which they began the campaign wore out. Captured cloth in Austria and Prussia would be used and new uniforms produced by the regiments themselves. In 1815 the French army had almost a solid year of Bourbon neglect and the wasting of large sums on the new Maison du Roi. Uniforms and equipment as well as arms had to be produced quickly to get the Armee du Nord into the field. |
Brechtel198 | 05 Sep 2021 6:15 a.m. PST |
I have also found Chapter XXII, 'Dressed to Kill', on French Napoleonic uniforms very helpful in understanding the uniform practices, which always weren't very 'uniform', in John Elting's Swords Around A Throne. Uniformology is not a simple study. Having been to the Musee de l'Armee at Les Invalides a few times and having purchased three books on the Napoleonic collection in the Museum, a great help. |
von Winterfeldt | 13 Sep 2021 2:21 a.m. PST |
This looks to be great stuff, a must have, at least for myself, I happily will throw away my 4 Elting / Knötel books about fictional uniforms to create a place on my shelf to go for the books by Dawson. By the way to use up old uniforms is nothing new discovered by Dawson, but nice to see it confirmed and the uniform mix of newly converted Dragoon regiments is confirmed by other sources. When are those books published?? |
Brechtel198 | 13 Sep 2021 6:15 a.m. PST |
It should be remembered that this will be a secondary source, no matter what was used as a reference or model, unless the uniform prints are from the period itself. So, just like the Knotels, information is being found and then rendered as a uniform print. The advantage that Herbert Knotel had when painting his uniform plates is that he had been a serving German cavalry officer in War I and understood both soldiers and horses. "Herbert Knötel was a German artist and illustrator who specialised in military topics. His father, Richard Knötel, was himself a respected artist & illustrator, as well as one of the first scholars of the history of military uniforms. His father trained him from childhood to eventually take over the family business of providing military illustrations for diverse clients & many different purposes." "During the First World War, Herbert Knötel served as an army officer and was wounded during the battle of Tannenberg. When the war ended, he was a Rittmeister (equivalent to a Captain in the U.S. Army) in a Prussian cavalry unit on the eastern front." "After the war, he returned to Berlin, where he worked in the Zeughaus military museum while preserving and managing his father's art and creating more of his own. Herbert Knötel signed his work "Knötel der Jüngere" (usually abbreviated "Knötel d. J."), which in English would be "Knötel the younger", to differentiate it from that of his father." |
Brechtel198 | 13 Sep 2021 6:21 a.m. PST |
Interestingly, the above sample prints have the appearance of prints by other Napoleonic uniformologists as well as the paper soldiers depicted by several manufacturers who produced figures of the period. |
MarbotsChasseurs | 13 Sep 2021 7:22 a.m. PST |
von W, Mr. Dawson wrote this on my Facebook Group about his upcoming books on April 23rd, 2021, "Coming in 2022 will be a two-volume study on the Ligne 1812-1815. Every single regiment will be discussed in detail, with commentary on the 'Bardin regulation': no such thing ever existed of course, and merely introduced a new style of habit, everything else was adopted in 1810 or 1811. This pair of books from Pen & Sword will be accompanied by a review of Napoleon's Austerlitz Army, and a review of the Army of the Revolution 1786-1802. From Helion & Co, will be a study of the Linge and Legere 1806-1812, followed by detailed reviews of the mounted arm and ancillary units." Not to promote my Facebook Group, but I post most of my new research on Uniforming the Past Blog Group and Mr. Dawson kindly answers questions and provides context and new details on many of my post. He is always willing to help and answer any question I or any other members have. link When I asked him about petit and grande tenue for 1809 he wrote, "Rather than this getting lost elsewhere, herewith some notes on 'tenue' appropriate for 1809 based on the standing orders of the 3e, 61e, 64e 100e de Ligne: Grande Tenue a Parade: schako with no cover, cords and plume, white stock, habit, veste, breeches, black gaiters. Full equipment. Giberne un-covered. Grande Tenue: schako uncovered, pompom, black stock, habit, veste, long grey gaiters. Full equipment. Petit-Tenue: schako covered, black stock, habit, veste, overalls, grey gaiters, full equipment, giberne covered. Tenue de Route: schako covered, capote, black stock, veste, overalls, grey gaiters, full equipment, giberne covered. Tenue de Corvee: bonnet de police, veste, black stock, overalls, grey gaiters. Tenue de Route, as the name implies was worn on the march and in battle. The overalls were worn over the breeches and gaiters. The habit was NOT worn in battle or on the march. It was folded and placed in the haversac. The habit was worn for parades only. Black gaiters were hardly ever worn. Long knee length gaiters were worn for 98% of the time. Cords and plumes for schakos or bonnet a poil were hardly ever used. When the 64e de Ligne were reviewed in summer 1804 by Marechal de Soult, they were wearing grey gaiters. Only when the Emperor came past in review did they wear black gaiters. One supposes that 99% of images of Napoleon's infantry as we understand today are wrong when we look at archive sources. The plates by Martinet and others, show idealized parade dress as if the Emperor was present. The most accurate depiction of a soldier of the epoch are by Beyer: they capture the emaciated state of the soldat, their clothing in tatters. The image we have of soldiers marching into battle with plumes waving in the breeze, schako cords swinging, men in their habits as they marched into battle is, by and large fiction. Even for the Garde Imperiale, their is no evidence from the epoch they wore full dress in the field. Indeed, contrary to the myth the Garde wore parade kit at Austerlitz, we know from Colonel-General Hulin's standing orders, that the parade kit was packed into bales and put into the barrack store room before the regiment left Paris to march to the front. Therefore, as the parade kit was hundreds of miles away from Austerlitz, it is impossible for them to have worn grande tenue. I cover the Garde Imperiale, especially the various orders of dress, in my books on the Garde Imperiale. In due course, companion volumes on the Ligne and Legere will appear, which will render all other studies on the dress of Napoleon's Army obsolete." |
Oliver Schmidt | 13 Sep 2021 7:30 a.m. PST |
You an see the drawings by Beyer here: link
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Brechtel198 | 13 Sep 2021 11:51 a.m. PST |
"More dreadful-looking fellows than Napoleon's Guard I had never seen. They had the look of thoroughbred, veteran, disciplined banditti. Depravity, recklessness, and bloodthirstiness were burned into their faces…Black mustachios, gigantic bearskins, and a ferocious expression were their characteristics."-Benjamin Haydon, Fontainebleu 1814. |
Brechtel198 | 13 Sep 2021 3:26 p.m. PST |
One supposes that 99% of images of Napoleon's infantry as we understand today are wrong when we look at archive sources… What about the eyewitness accounts and pictures drawn by those who saw the troops? |
4th Cuirassier | 13 Sep 2021 3:58 p.m. PST |
It's not that surprising to find that troops were not dressed according to regulations. The general drift of uniform regulations was to make them cheaper AFAICT, so whatever style you're decreeing looking forward, step one is surely to use up all the old stuff first. If your voltigeurs are supposed to wear a certain type of hat you'll thrash all the old ones you have before you buy new. I'll be interested to see Mr. Dawson's book, as it sounds like he may have come up with a really detailed account of how these rules were applied in practice. The meta-narrative here is also interesting though. In their lack of uniformity, Napoleon's armies would seem to have had the appearance of the forces of a bankrupt and borderline outright failed state. Quelle surprise! The Armée du Nord collapsed at Waterloo because it had little to no combat experience…it was a fragile combat force that could basically fire its muskets and march in a column, and formation in Line was doomed to failure Wow, sounds like the Prussians were even worse than we thought! |
Lilian | 13 Sep 2021 4:42 p.m. PST |
2022 for both Pen & Sword 1811-1815 but not before 2024 for the 5 Helion 1806-1812 I am afraid… PLD found the 29e de ligne equiped with Austrian helmets but seems quite reluctant to consider the case of 108e de ligne dressed with hungarian trousers presented by members from a Corporal's diary, because a such thing doesn't appear in the archives of the 108e |
Brechtel198 | 13 Sep 2021 5:17 p.m. PST |
The Armée du Nord collapsed at Waterloo because it had little to no combat experience… I don't believe that is an accurate depiction of Nord. |
SHaT1984 | 13 Sep 2021 8:49 p.m. PST |
One wonders~ -will the number of [the] regiments itemised be greater than the current limited data set. For instance even within one corps of 1805 I've had to 'manufacture' features as no specific details have been seem. Others, such as the 65eme, seem to get repeated ad infinitum, but what of the 55eme? Never seen. -on period decrepit depictions may have been a propaganda leaflet as well- the open mouths gasping for 'something' seem to make them unrealistic, not more so. So what was the motivation of the 'prints' made. - "PLD found the 29e de ligne equiped with Austrian helmets" seems obsurd for a combat unit. Could only lead to the worst complications on a smoke/ rain covered battlefield surely. Funny you bring up the 108eme Mike- I was going to ask what the source for the comment was that "a French unit was 'mistaken' for Bavarians by one of the hussar regiments who attacked them fiercely". You are referring to 1809, but what of 1805? Pale blue greatcoats or just poor light (and fog etc.) and mistaken identity? Lastly- I wouldn't jump on the garde not wearing their full dress, since any number of writers noted it. IT IS PROBABLE that the #1 Dress was retained in Paris- after all the Grumblers partly got thir nickname from the fact they had to parade and then next day turn in the uniforms that had been issued for it. The Grenadiers a Cheval received surtouts; the Dragons did not; instead they had TWO habits! So again its possible to misinterpret a perfectly normal issue- that of best dress retained for Paris. Doesn't mean they didn't ALSO carry an old/ current habit AND wear surtout on the march (ride) to the East. regards dave |
Michman | 14 Sep 2021 1:34 a.m. PST |
Further to the post above of 13 Sep 2021 11:51 a.m. PST …. The posted snippet appears in many re-quoted forms. Perhaps the original text might be useful. The painter Benjamin Robert Haydon (1786–1846) visited Fontainebleau in mid-July 1814, 14-15 weeks after the end of hostilities. From his contemporary diary : "July 6 [1814] …. I strolled out in the evening to see the Imperial Guard on foot parade. There were 2500 of them here; the remainder of the 8000 were quartered in the different villages. More dreadful fellows I certainly never saw. Their appearance really impressed me. They have the look of thorough bred veterans, a disciplined banditti, without the irregularity but with all the depravity; desperate indifference & blood were burnt into their veteran faces; black mustachios, gigantic caps, a slouching carriage and a ferocious expression were their characteristics. Conducted by the talents of Buonaparte, what would have become of the World if they ruled it? Principle and intellect would have vanished from its surface. A sight of his guards would cure his admirers." The Diary of Benjamin Robert Haydon 1808-1815 edited by Willard Bissell Pope Cambridge : Harvard University Press, 1960 volume 1, pages 377-378 The entry is enlarged at bit in the "autobiography" compiled from his papers after Haydon's death: "[The guardsmen] were large, tall and bony, but narrow-chested, and on seeing the English cavalry afterwards, on their road to Boulogne from Bayonne, it was easy to predict who would have the best in a close grapple. …. 'Why does not the King have us to guard him,' said one [guardsman], 'instead of parade soldiers ?' Life of Benjamin Robert Haydon : Historical Painter, from His Autobiography and Journals edited & compiled by Tom Taylor, Esq. London : Longman, Brown, Green, and Longmans, 1853 volume 1, pages 256-257 Per the ordonnance royal of 12 May 1814, the new corps royal des grenadiers à pied and corps royal des chasseurs à pied were first mustered at Fontainebleau on 1 July. They were dispatched from Fontainebleau to Metz and Nancy, respectively, by the end of the month. A new royal guard was formed in Paris. Histoire anecdotique, politique et militaire de la Garde Impériale Émile Marco de Saint-Hilaire Paris : Eugène & Victor Penaud Frères, 1845 volume 2, pages 601-604 Despite a pay cut of more than 30% for ex- old guardsmen, their reduced status, and the upcoming relocation away from their families in Paris, Le Moniteur reported that on 24 July the ex-guardsmen enthusiastically received their new Bourbon flags and eagerly gave their new oaths of allegiance to the duc de Berry, seconded by marshals Berthier and Oudinot. "The troops then defiled before His Royal Highness: nothing could surpass the beauty of their uniforms, nor the cohesion and precision of their maneuvers, except the animated zeal which they demonstrated for the august cause which they had just sworn to defend." [my translation] Le Moniteur Universel No. 208 – 25 juillet 1814 volume 53, page 837 |
dibble | 14 Sep 2021 7:51 a.m. PST |
As you know, I compiled contemporary pictures and portrait miniatures of the regular British and some allied units, Militia/Yeomanry and Volunteer units, not only for the feast of the eyes and a painting reference but also show how the contemporary De Bosset/Hamilton-Smith charts were inaccurate, which has led to those inaccuracies being perpetuated to this day in books, paintings, re-enactments, Models, Wargames and other situations. I'm sure that if Dawson went down similar lines, he could utilise similar sources. There are thousands of French, contemporary Portrait Miniatures out there and there must be 'naive' semi and professional pictures and paintings to track down and research too. |
Lilian | 14 Sep 2021 1:07 p.m. PST |
this remember me the controversial debate and discussion he had with others about the sky blue pelisse instead of white of the 5e Hussards where he was not really impressed by the number of portraits and miniatures that people opposed him, PLD has rather the religion of the Archives than portraits quite idealizing the reality according to him…at least in this case. |
SHaT1984 | 14 Sep 2021 1:37 p.m. PST |
Yes we run up against the 'gospel' of history all the time which is why I imagine I delight in finding such things myself, not that I am anywhere near the centre of it. However the 'blinkered' approach to rules and regulations that has driven educational/ academia rather than real-life artefacts has at least been busted wide open now. I'd love to see an honest catalog of what exists in private hands, because I know of ONE apartment in Paris that was a gold mine of both 1er- 3e Empire and 1870 artefacts, and these were common [hard] working folk! All the best,d |
von Winterfeldt | 14 Sep 2021 11:59 p.m. PST |
I agree running against any gospel is different, take in as many diverse sources as you can and then make your own judgement – but PLD – is pioneering to make also those archival sources available by his work, which of course is great – providing valuable information. About an honest catalogue, I have my doubts, they may be hidden not without reason, as to avoid taxes. |
4th Cuirassier | 15 Sep 2021 1:59 a.m. PST |
I'm not sure there's ever been a viewpoint that because regulations said 'wear X' all troops must have worn X. It's always been obvious that troops' appearance would be a bit motley because it still is today even with better supply chains. The question new information like this poses is really about what your game counter intends to depict. I'm not keen on the campaign dress look and prefer my game counters to look a bit spruce, but it does appear that much of the time they were a lot less spruce than you might think. |
arthur1815 | 15 Sep 2021 2:38 a.m. PST |
If I was modelling troops in parade or regulation dress for display purposes this sort of information would be of great interest. If I was modelling troops on campaign I would follow descriptions in letters and memoirs, rather than regulations in archives. But my wargame troops are playing pieces, not models of particular units on specific dates, so as long as they resemble the overall effect of contemporary hand-coloured engravings of battle scenes, such as those in Jenkins' Martial Achievements &c., I'm perfectly happy. They are almost certainly more uniform in appearance and more brightly coloured than real soldiers were on campaign, but they look good on the wargame table. |
SHaT1984 | 15 Sep 2021 1:12 p.m. PST |
Great discourse gents! >>I'm not sure there's ever been a viewpoint that because regulations said 'wear X' all troops must have worn X. Au contraire monsieur- I'd say that 99% of 'illustrative' tomes had that specific intention over the last 100 years. While I admit to buying them, I'm less enthusiastic now about the accuracy of other unnamed sets of this world as they dished up book after book on what was regulated, little on other. A current crop series seems to have become the modern version. I truly hope these books and revelations are well curated and will then deserve the price they fetch. I'm all for breaking the mould so to speak. As to models, yes I customise mine to 'differentiate' after having used 'as is' models created by the companies for decades. I could churn out 4x as many if I just painted them, but I now find the individuals much more interesting, Have about 9 to complete on the desk now. ~d |
SHaT1984 | 15 Sep 2021 10:06 p.m. PST |
Mike, do me a favour and decypher the title of this thread; other than 'his name' the wording eludes my limited intelligence! Thanks, huzza! d |
von Winterfeldt | 16 Sep 2021 2:51 a.m. PST |
I agree also with his assesment that the Armée du Nord in 1815 was very brittle, as the whole army of 1815, how the regiments were created – the command very unsteady, Ney given command of his wing, with virtually no staff, not knowing where his units, he was supposedly in command of, being located, sheer madness. One has to be aware that old school artist like Herbert Knötel, Forthoffer, Rigo for example were not the most reliable – so it will be good to read PLD findings. |
Gazzola | 16 Sep 2021 5:19 a.m. PST |
VW agreeing with something negative about the French. Who'd have thought, eh? LOL |
4th Cuirassier | 16 Sep 2021 6:45 a.m. PST |
@ SHaT1984 We must have been reading different books, or reading them differently. The Funcken books fit your template, I think; the settings and commentary around the illustrations suggests that this is what the troops actually looked like. The Haythornthwaite Uniforms of…series is pretty much the opposite, though, especially the Peninsula and 1812 titles. I'd suggest the misrep is more pronounced in more general, more recent media. The cavalry depicted in this painting would have been caked in mud:
and that's before considering the impressive uniformity on both sides. I agree BTW that I have no idea what the thread title means. I'm going to assume that "Confection Drouot" is a hitherto-unknown French uniform standard of 1815. |
MarbotsChasseurs | 16 Sep 2021 9:00 a.m. PST |
It is his clothing company which I found on Facebook. It seems he makes uniforms |
SHaT1984 | 16 Sep 2021 5:47 p.m. PST |
@ 4th Cuirassier >>The Funcken books fit your template, OK I mixed two emotions in my mind; I meant they are a reasonable display of what we understood uniforms to be AND did not deserve the post-80's bagging that they got. Looking at them now, as long as you understand the context they are helpful. I was surprised at the clarity and breadth of 'early' French uniform detail; some other types(the cav) were a bit stodgy but I'd say lacking broader source material at the time. Others, well, let's say while some do, many don't. Thanks Mike, that now makes a lot more sense. Is he French? Hotel Drouot/ the antiques dealer etc. in Paris? I nearly purchased a CåC officers sabre there- but the 6k irked my mind a little so early in my adventure ;-) ~d |
Brechtel198 | 16 Sep 2021 6:54 p.m. PST |
I agree also with his assesment that the Armée du Nord in 1815 was very brittle… What is the reference for that 'assessment'? The earliest reference to that comment that I have seen is from the Esposito/Elting Atlas, published in 1964, Map 156, second column, paragraph 3: "As a weapon, [Nord] was keen but brittle." |
Brechtel198 | 16 Sep 2021 7:46 p.m. PST |
Regarding the green light infantry uniform above, interestingly the musicians in the infantry regiments wore a green uniform of that style and cut. It was made regulation by the Bardin uniform regulations. Perhaps they had some in unit stores and opted to use them instead of making new ones of the usual blue. |
MarbotsChasseurs | 16 Sep 2021 8:02 p.m. PST |
Just looking at how regiments were organized before the campaign started, with regiments having men from 4 to 5 different regiments would have been very hard to create any unit cohesion. Sure, a percentage of men were veterans and returned pows, but without unit cohesion, when the action got very hot, it must have been tough to maneuver under fire when the men barely knew each other for more than a few months days. For example, looking at the 66e Ligne (ex 72e Ligne), we see men coming from the 122e Ligne, Portuguese Legion,37e, 38e 50e, 65e , 67e, and the old 72e Ligne,122e, 138e ligne, to name a few. Plus, new officers from different regiments would have had very little time working together and getting to know their men. |
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