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"Defending companies when they make a bad product" Topic


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Baranovich01 Aug 2021 4:09 p.m. PST

I'm finding this cultural phenomenon to be more and more curious as time goes by.

In the computer and console gaming world for example, there are numerous excellent independent Youtube channels that call out video game makers for making a crappy product and then hyping it as if they improved it. In recent years the primary one that comes to mind is Madden football. EA has gained a terrible reputation for "games as a service", selling the same exact broken game every year while hyping it as being all fixed, updated, new and innovative while increasing the micro-transactions in the game to get you to continuously spend money after you've already bought the game.

The channels that correctly call out EA for this are routinely called haters and people say they don't really appreciate the game, they should play something else, etc. etc.

So today in the Civil War discussion forums I called out Warlord Games for providing a crappy product element with regards to their Epic Scale starter set. I quite correctly pointed out that the flags that come with the set are practically two scales two small for the models that come in the box.

This is…not…my…opinion. It is a fact. They are too small for the models. It is verified. The scale IS incorrect. There is no debate. If you have the starter set go and measure them. They are not the right size for the models in the set. The flag set is 6mm. The models are 13.5/15mm. They are literally half the size they should be. And they look absolutely ridiculous on the flag poles.

So I basically call Warlord out for this, as well as showing my own conversions of the command stands using my own correct size flags.

I think it's a completely unnecessary and avoidable thing to get wrong. And the worst part is that it's such a simple thing to get right! I think Warlord needs to be called out for it. They could have easily put in a flag sheet that was the correct scale. They simply didn't. They got a hold of some generic 6mm flag sheet and went cheap, photo-copied it and stuck it in the box and said, "Yeah, it's Epic scale flags".

So then I promptly had three fine members of VEF tell me in no certain terms that too many gamers use "over-sized flags" just to be "dramatic" and that the flags Warlord provide are just fine. In short it was my problem, not Warlord's.

The second VEF member asked me if I ever have anything nice to say about any products and I should talk about things I like for a change instead of complaining.

The third VEF member told me that the conversions were out of whack and that Warlord's dimensions were good.

…I just find it so interesting that when you do a proper review of a product, as a customer you point out the good things AND the bad about that product. How else can you give the product a proper rating and review if you're not honest about it?

What it this thing where people lean towards always defending the company even when said company fall short and cuts corners, etc? And beyond that, why is there a need to attack the person doing the honest reviewing? It's as if the focus shifts from the product itself to the reviewer's personal CHARACTER!

Like there's something inherently wrong in my character for having the very bad taste to actually point out what I think is a bad feature of a product that I paid money for.

People do realize that we have consumer protection agencies and regulations for this very reason, right? You do realize that consumer protections are how unsafe products are made safer(or taken off the market altogether), how shoddy products are improved and made to last longer, and how products that have inferior details can have later versions where those inferiorities are corrected?

That's what customer/consumer feedback is FOR. So why is there such hostility towards it and towards the reveiwer? It's just so bizarre to me.

CFeicht Supporting Member of TMP01 Aug 2021 4:33 p.m. PST

Mass Stockholm Syndrome?

Mister Tibbles01 Aug 2021 4:34 p.m. PST

Sounds like they are committing an ad hominem fallacy. Good for you calling out the flags.

Personal logo ColCampbell Supporting Member of TMP01 Aug 2021 4:44 p.m. PST

I agree with you about the flags. I always print my own and try to get them to a proper size to match the "scale" of my figures.

Jim

Stryderg01 Aug 2021 5:26 p.m. PST

I blame a few things:
#1 Stupidity.
It's easier to attack people on the internet than have a serious discussion via writing. Writing is hard (see #1 above).
Maybe they hope to ingratiate themselves with the company and score some free swag?
Maybe they actually work for the company and are commenting "in disguise".
Maybe they enjoy the crappy product in question and get personally offended that anyone would dare disagree with them (see #1 above). For this, I blame the internet where everyone can isolate themselves with homogenous opinions.
Or maybe CFeicht has it right?

John the OFM01 Aug 2021 5:34 p.m. PST

Carry on! grin
It amuses me.

Oberlindes Sol LIC Supporting Member of TMP01 Aug 2021 6:15 p.m. PST

It is also possible that the commenters who attacked Baranovich were actually company shills.

John the OFM01 Aug 2021 6:39 p.m. PST

I can verify that I am NOT a Warlord Games shill. I like a lot of their products and have bought them in the past, but now feel they are overpriced. Sad, but I can cope with that. Unlike some people.
And I do not recall any "attacks".

If you were standing in front of me, I would slap your face and force you resent it so as to demand satisfaction. Harrumph!

It seems that the OP thinks that anyone who does not agree with him 100% is being personally disloyal to him. Ho hum.
I'm a grownup. I do not demand that all support me, and I even allow dissent.

John the OFM01 Aug 2021 6:46 p.m. PST

This is…not…my…opinion. It is a fact.

Years ago I heard a grumpy old coot scream at a local radio talk show host "Period! End of discussion!"
The host reminded him whose show it was, and the old coot did not control it, or anything.
Simply asserting that something is beyond dispute does not make it so.

I would like to think that TMP still allows vigorous debate, and that nobody can shut down the discussion by whining.

emckinney01 Aug 2021 8:05 p.m. PST

"It seems that the OP thinks that anyone who does not agree with him 100% is being personally disloyal to him. Ho hum.
I'm a grownup. I do not demand that all support me, and I even allow dissent."

John has said many wise things over the years, and many with which I disagree.

This is the first time John has said something literally disconnected from reality.

"It doesn't matter if you did the math and they messed up, it's only your opinion" only makes sense in a post-truth environment.

Prince Rupert of the Rhine01 Aug 2021 10:57 p.m. PST

Wargaming is a small hobby with lots of small companies run mostly by gamers who have friends in the hobby. So when you point out an issue with a company, human nature being what it is, people naturally move to defend their friends in a way they wouldn't if you where complaining about Walmart. I wouldn't take it personally.

Dexter Ward02 Aug 2021 1:15 a.m. PST

The size of the flags may be a matter of fact, but whether they look ok is definitely a matter of opinion

JimDuncanUK02 Aug 2021 1:22 a.m. PST

I don't think there is much of a problem.

I just want to get my toys on the table and roll some dice.

Am I getting that bit wrong as well?

Lucius02 Aug 2021 3:04 a.m. PST

The Warlod ACW set is not a crappy product by any objective measure. There is something about it that you didn't like, which is fine. But that doesn't make it a "crappy product",

You don't like Modipheus's pricing. But that doesn't mean that they are "ripping off their customers".

Do you see a pattern here?

Personal logo pavelft Supporting Member of TMP02 Aug 2021 3:28 a.m. PST

Ok, so the flags are too small. Objective fact. I then posit, so what? It's a game in a box. This is complaining about the least expensive thing in the box when you are literally getting an all-in-one. All-in-one's are inherently a compromise. Print some better flags. Hell, go support another wargaming company and buy some flags you like better. You know, like the rest of us do. I 100% agree that you have a valid point, but I also think in the grand scheme of things you are doing the equivalent of complaining about the radio frequency knob on the new RV you just bought.

Personal logo jsmcc91 Supporting Member of TMP02 Aug 2021 3:54 a.m. PST

I think IMP that it does come down to the words or context that it is posted. If someone calls a product "crappy" for instance, there will be folks who will come out and defend and say there is nothing wrong with said product. That is how reactionary we all can be at times.

pzivh43 Supporting Member of TMP02 Aug 2021 4:27 a.m. PST

He didn't say crappy product, he said crappy product element--the flag set, in point of fact.

Although I'm generally OK with the overall look of product, I like things to be accurate. As he said, would you think it OK if the musket on the figure was half the correct size?

No need to be mean when someone points out a flaw.

Wackmole902 Aug 2021 5:45 a.m. PST

Lets look at some facts. Five of your last messages posted have been critical of Warlord's Epic Acw in someway.

Yes a company should get scale right and Historical detail. But you must understand the company has to face the Bottom line. The box set was a great deal for buyer and I think not so much for Warlord.

If you can't deal with the product quality, Don't buy it.

I think Warlord has pumped some much needed interest in ACW in the middle scale, that has sorely been missing in the last few Decades.

Personal logo Mserafin Supporting Member of TMP02 Aug 2021 6:39 a.m. PST

Good for you, speaking the truth. I've encountered this problem since the 1980s, where any sort of negative review is some sort of betrayal, that it isn't good for the "growth of the hobby."

This us rubbish, growth entails pointing out failures as well as successes. The size of the flags is something that can be objectively measured. Either they're right or their not. If they're wrong, you have every right to point that out. It is " historical" gaming, after all, so sticking with the historical record is kind of expected.

Thresher01 Supporting Member of TMP02 Aug 2021 7:26 a.m. PST

How does one know about the product quality, until one buy's and receives it, in this "internet era" age?

I think CF may be on to something, though company shills are probably far more likely.

I've seen the same thing happen in politics, RE a certain healthcare program.

OFM, you crack me up. You ARE a really tough guy over the ether of the internet.

Good for the original poster for pointing out this very glaring error, and/or sub-par product element.

John the OFM02 Aug 2021 7:31 a.m. PST

I bought a Warlord box set of FIW British infantry. It had a FREE series of flags included, unfortunately printed on a paper with an insert, and only for two regiments. I believe they were for Braddock. Basic information with facings, etc. Unfortunately the paper was unsuitable for use as a gaming flag, because when you folded it, the ink cracked and pulled away, leaving a ragged white scar underneath.
Lovely figures. The box set was a bargain price! They painted up well and fought well for either me or my opponent(s).
I dealt with the flag "issue" by copying it on more suitable paper. Or, I could have gone to a site (fife drum.org or something close to that) and printed out one that wasn't included in the box. That's another thing. The proper flag for different regiments were not included! I'm being ripped off!

Golly gee wiz! It never occurred to me that after getting such a great deal on high quality miniatures to go on TMP and have a temper tantrum about the flags!
For crying out loud. They're basically a freebie. Does anyone ever buy a great bargain based on the freebies included? Or have a fit about it because of the freebies being unacceptable? That's like buying expensive Battlefront tanks rather than Old Glory because you like the packaging foam better, or like the blister pack to use as a pallet.

Maybe, if the OP really likes the minis, but hates the FREE flags, a possible solution would be to purchase the more expensive smaller sets that do not include FREE FLAGS.
Problem solved.

Thresher01 Supporting Member of TMP02 Aug 2021 7:47 a.m. PST

I'm glad to hear the figs are of decent quality at a good price. That is nice.

Sub-par "freebies" aren't, if they prove to be so subpar as to be totally useless.

One wonders why a manufacturer would bother to go to the added expense to provide trash that is utterly useless?

John the OFM02 Aug 2021 9:04 a.m. PST

Maybe Warlord should just discontinue the FREE flags in the future, and just put high quality miniatures in the box at the very good bulk discount.
Then everyone is happy.

Thresher01 Supporting Member of TMP02 Aug 2021 9:26 a.m. PST

Everyone will never be happy.

John the OFM02 Aug 2021 9:31 a.m. PST

True.
"Where are the FREE flags you used to put in your large bargain boxes?????"

altfritz Supporting Member of TMP02 Aug 2021 2:33 p.m. PST

What is "VEF"?

John the OFM02 Aug 2021 2:46 p.m. PST

I was wondering that too.

Extrabio1947 Supporting Member of TMP02 Aug 2021 3:15 p.m. PST

VEF is the acronym for the Venezuelan Bolivar, the world's least valued currency. Apparently, you can get approximately 398 billion of them for $1.00 USD.

link

But in this context, it probably means something else 😉

Big Red Supporting Member of TMP02 Aug 2021 3:46 p.m. PST

Maybe Warlord didn't realize that their free flags were the wrong size "gosh boss, I thought they were a little small". Some companies pay a lot of money for that type of information. Of course having this information before publishing is valuable too.

Now that they have feedback to that effect they can choose to correct or not, any future releases.

Personal logo D6 Junkie Supporting Member of TMP02 Aug 2021 5:46 p.m. PST

It's a mistake but considering what all is in the box is it that big of a deal. Couldn't you just color copy the sheet at Kinkos and just size it up a bit?

Tgerritsen Supporting Member of TMP02 Aug 2021 7:05 p.m. PST

Did you reach out to Warlord to ask about it, or just come here to shake your fists at the virtual sky?

I don't have a dog in this hunt but one can be right and still be a PITA. They aren't mutually exclusive.

Some folks said it didn't bother them. Are you going to force them to get bothered? It's the internet. Not everyone's going to agree with you.

The H Man03 Aug 2021 12:47 a.m. PST

This is good for conversation else where. I am suspecting there is no scale being used.

It's not just the flags, apparently troops equipment is wacky also. I really think they have gone boardgame on it.

It's good to point out errors and mistakes. Keep it up. Other gamers will appreciate knowing what they are buying, especially if not well versed in ACW.

Mr Elmo03 Aug 2021 6:24 a.m. PST

I'm not sure about flag size but the pictures you shared have the wrong shade of blue.

I think they are missing a button on the coat but it's hard to tell from the angle of the photo.

jamemurp03 Aug 2021 7:20 a.m. PST

So I don't think people disagreeing with you on a niche product is the same as those who white knight major companies like EA.

You called out what you feel is a significant error in scale of a provided component. Others disagree.

I do find it odd that some defend it as "free" when you are absolutely paying for the product to get them. And it still doesn't address the problem- free or not the scale is wrong. Whether or not is compromises the value of the product as a whole is a completely different issue. I would certainly appreciate such information prior to a purchase so that I know that further work is required.

Pointing out flawed arguments, inflammatory language, and the like is legitimate debate; criticizing someone for criticism is the height of hypocrisy.

The H Man03 Aug 2021 4:15 p.m. PST

Right.

There's nothing wrong with getting hot under the collar when you buy a product and find it's not up to expectations.

Some smelt blood and bounded in for more. Seeing some in this thread also.

The flags are a pretty important part of the ACW look. You may as well give them helmets and pink vests, as little flags are clearly not accurate for the majority.

I think the flag poles are small, the same reason you get 9 lots of clone troopers. Bigger poles would mean bigger mould, equalling higher costs. But that's bogus, just put in a seperate flag pole or two, it can't be that expensive! Heck just toss in a bit of brass for those who may wish to alter them. Anyway, yep, boardgame.

Oberlindes Sol LIC Supporting Member of TMP03 Aug 2021 8:46 p.m. PST

I can verify that I am NOT a Warlord Games shill.

I didn't say you were.

And I do not recall any "attacks".

Sorry, I thought that there were attacks. The original post says:

why is there a need to attack the person doing the honest reviewing

*********

I 100% agree that you have a valid point, but I also think in the grand scheme of things you are doing the equivalent of complaining about the radio frequency knob on the new RV you just bought.

And you call yourself a consumer?

*********

I just want to get my toys on the table and roll some dice.

Am I getting that bit wrong as well?

And you call yourself a miniatures gamer!

*********

Everyone will never be happy.

Of course not. Who paints miniatures and plays games to be happy?

Personal logo javelin98 Supporting Member of TMP05 Aug 2021 3:25 p.m. PST

Baranovich,

I don't think what occurred in your original thread ( TMP link ) is what you are describing.

Most people reacting in that thread were not leaping to the defense of Warlord or their poor choice in flags. Rather, most were reacting to your complaint that your review hadn't yet been posted and the various conclusions you leaped to regarding nefarious motives on behalf of Warlord and their staff. 3 days isn't really a reasonable amount of time for a small company to review and approve a review of their product. There might be one or two people there who are able to do that as a side duty while performing their normal jobs. Even massive companies with tens of thousands of employees, to include dedicated customer service staff, can take days to review and approve submissions like yours.

No disrespect, but your other thread came across as entitled and immature. Here's a prime example:

Is Warlord really that afraid of one balanced review from some random gaming schmuck taking away a few sales?

No, they aren't, but the fact that you chose this to be the central theme of your other thread says volumes about your mentality. You may want to ease off on the instant-gratification obsession and be a little more patient.

What it this thing where people lean towards always defending the company even when said company fall short and cuts corners, etc? And beyond that, why is there a need to attack the person doing the honest reviewing? It's as if the focus shifts from the product itself to the reviewer's personal CHARACTER!

Like there's something inherently wrong in my character for having the very bad taste to actually point out what I think is a bad feature of a product that I paid money for.

People do realize that we have consumer protection agencies and regulations for this very reason, right? You do realize that consumer protections are how unsafe products are made safer(or taken off the market altogether), how shoddy products are improved and made to last longer, and how products that have inferior details can have later versions where those inferiorities are corrected?

And this is another example. You elevated yourself to be another Ralph Nader? Really? I read your review and saw nothing wrong with it, but your breathless hyperbole and self-aggrandizement in these threads are another matter.

The H Man06 Aug 2021 4:56 a.m. PST

"Most people reacting in that thread were not leaping to the defense of Warlord or their poor choice in flags. Rather, most were reacting to your complaint that your review hadn't yet been posted and the various conclusions you leaped to regarding nefarious motives on behalf of Warlord and their staff."

That sounds like the same thing to me, defending WL either way.

I don't think a company can get to bothered by such things, except by trying to be faster in putting up reviews in future.

Giving the guy a hard time is low. He had an issue, let people know about it, Op can't be expected to know WLs business routines. A lot of people probably think three days is too long.

Let's not put people off letting us know of issues they are having.

The only really negative things I've read have not been in the top posts of these topics.

jefritrout08 Aug 2021 5:32 p.m. PST

Just my impressions, but the first three responses to the original post did call out the OP as being incorrect. I appreciate that he found actual historical pictures to reinforce his original comment.

As to the point of this post, yes it does happen more than it should. And most of the comments are against the reviewer instead of his reviews.

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