"French Artillery Poundage in the Peninsula" Topic

What would the breakdown of a typical (say, 1809) Foot artillery battery be? What size guns, and what about howitzers?

A typical foot battery (company) would be six 6 or 8 pdrs and two 6 inch or 24 pdr howitzers. The aspiration was to be uniform with the 6 pdrs and 24 pdr howitzers but a number of the older equipments were still around.

So the Gribeauval system took a bit to phase out? That makes sense. I suppose I'll have some of my batteries with the older guns.

I've skimmed To Assure My Dynasty, the Et Sans Resultat campaign book for Iberia 1808, and the breakdown of the French batteries listed for various scenarios seemed tilted towards 8-pdrs over 6-pdrs. Many of the troops initially sent to Spain were second-line forces, which would explain why the older weapons might have been more common.

There was even one light battery of 4-pdrs listed!

The Spanish artillery corps was also armed with Gribeauval system guns (remember, they had been a French ally) so they would be quite common in the theater.

I crowdsourced a question to TMP awhile back about the Army of Portugal; results at this link:

TMP link

Key takeaways: the Army of Portugal seemed to have been armed almost entirely with 8 and 4 pound Gribeauval guns. No 6 or 12 pounders, even though the An XI system guns were in widespread service elsewhere. I have heard that few 6 pounders made it to Spain, and after the initial campaign, the French brought few 12 pounders, because the roads were so bad.

Not sure whether any of the other armies in the Peninsula got 6 pounders, though.

My recollection was that Gribeauval was the norm in Iberia, with An XI going to Germany, and only showing up in the south after Vittoria. Capturing Spanish Gribeauval equipment would have reinforced this. Reequipping an entire major power is no joke, and not done overnight. And Spain was never the priority theater for Napoleonic France.

See tanks in NATO South vs NATO Center in the Cold War--or 12-lb Napoleons in the Army of Tennessee as opposed to the ANV. Whenever some historian gives you the date at which the army was equipped with Weapon X, rest assured there was some poor grunt in a backwater theater still using Weapon V--if not Weapon U.

Also, answers to this appeared in links provided in the 'Redux' thread.. go fish, it couldn't be easier…

>>second-line forces, which would explain why the older weapons might have been more common.

No, it doesn't actually.
Guns were organised; gunners were allocated (or vice-versa) and the piecemeal build up of infantry largely built from cadres and depots- read conscripts, as well as 'retained' manpower within France, were created with as little effect as possible of the 'main' army's in Germany and Italy, or their respective replacement troops.

I'd say Bailen 1808 weighed heavily on the mind and another such disaster with an homogenous corps was to be avoided, as the clouds of 1809 gathered.

The Systeme AN XI was never fully implemented and so only augmented the Gribeauval System instead of replacing it.

The only field pieces that were produced in any numbers were the 6-pounder long gun and the 5.5-inch (or 24-pounder) howitzer.

The Gribeauval gun carriages were better designed than those of Systeme AN XI and modified Gribeauval gun carriages, used for the 6-pounder for example were used.

The Gribeauval field pieces were still being used in Germany by Davout's command in 1809 (see Saski, Volume I) while the AN XI field pieces were used to equip the new II and IV Corps that were formed for that campaign.

The Gribeaval limbers and caissons were still being used by the French artillery arm during the period.

The Gribeauval System was finally phased out/replaced when the new Valee Artillery System was introduced in 1827.

The Spanish Army had adopted the Gribeauval System some time after it was introduced in France, and they were still using the field pieces and ancillary vehicles when fighting the French after 1807.

There is some excellent information on the Spanish artillery arm of the period in Rene Chartrand's Ospreys on the Spanish army of the period.

If remember correctly when the Baden contingent's artillery got to the Spanish frontier their 6pdrs were replaced by 4pdrs. I wonder if this was done to simplify ammo. supply.

I read a report/ book passage back in the 1980s that stated that none French batteries were made to exchange larger caliber guns for lighter guns before they went on into Spain.

I wonder if this was done to simplify ammo. supply.

It very well could have been if the French 6-pounder ammunition wasn't a good fit for the Baden field pieces.

I've seen OBs for the Army of Portugal, and the standard battery was 4 4-lb, 2 8-lb and 2 howitzers. The 4-lb was popular because it as easy to move and required less horses overall to move, important considerations in the Peninsula.

I also recall reading that after losing its guns on the retreat from northern Portugal, Soult's Corps was released- equipped with Austrian pieces, possibly recently-captured ones.

Soult's II Corps had six foot and three horse companies in January 1809. Ordnance was as follows:
4 x 12 pdr
20 x 8 pdr
16 x 4 pdr
14 x 6" howitzers

@ Levi

Many of the troops initially sent to Spain were second-line forces

Exactly wrong as it happens. The French troops initially sent to Spain were the veterans of Ulm, Austerlitz, Jena, Eylau, Friedland etc. The army whittled away there was the cream.

The second-rate armies were those raised afterwards to fight Austria in 1809, Russia in 1812, and the Sixth Coalition in 1813-14. There is a connection between the outcome of those campaigns and the quality of the armies sent.

Napoleon did regularly raid his Spanish forces for cadres, replacements, NCOs and officers for these other armies, while sending conscripts there. By 1814 the French forces there were probably as bad as those everywhere else. This doesn't alter the fact that the vaunted Grande Armee of 1805-7 was constructively wiped out in Spain by the Peninsular allies.

The French troops initially sent to Spain were the veterans of Ulm, Austerlitz, Jena, Eylau, Friedland etc.

That is incorrect. Levi is correct in his comment regarding the first French army of invasion in Spain. The first French army of invasion, which included Dupont's corps, were not the veterans of the Grande Armee which had fought in the above campaigns.

The units sent were composed of newly -inducted conscripts, five legions of the reserve which had been intended as coastal defense troops, and a few veteran units such as the Sailors of the Guard.

After the disaster at Baylen veteran units from the Grande Armee were formed for the second invasion which was commanded and led by Napoleon. Napoleon left 90,000 veterans, including Davout's III Corps and the heavy cavalry, in central Europe under Davout. That was the core of the Army of Germany that defeated the Austrians in 1809.

This doesn't alter the fact that the vaunted Grande Armee of 1805-7 was constructively wiped out in Spain by the Peninsular allies.

That is also incorrect. Perhaps you should take a look at John Elting's Swords Around A Throne in order to understand the Grande Armee.

Charles Oman in Volume I of his history of the Peninsula War, pages 103-107, succinctly covers what troops were sent into Spain by Napoleon for the first invasion.

'In dealing with the history of the imperial armies in the Peninsula, it is our first duty to point out the enormous difference between the troops who entered Spain in 1807 and 1808, under Dupont, Moncey, and Murat, and the later arrivals who came under Bonaparte's personal guidance when the first disastrous stage of the war was over.'

'The victors of Jena and Friedland were left in their cantonments on the Rhine, the Elbe, and the Oder, while a new force, mainly composed of elements of inferior fighting value, were sent across the Pyranees.'

The veteran units that were assigned to the French invasion forces numbered 31,200 infantry and 3,000 cavalry. 1,800 of the infantry were from newly formed 4th battalions.

Troops organized in temporary formations or foreign troops numbered 64,200 infantry and 10,500 cavalry.

Of the 25,000 infantry that belonged to the regular army, 17,500 of them were assigned to Junot. The rest of the verteran troops, 5,000 of them, were assigned to Duhesme in Catalonia. Dupont had only two battalions of regulars, the rest, 17,300, of his infantry were new conscripts. Moncey had no veteran units and Bessieres had only four battalions of veterans.

The Grande Armee's veterans were in central Europe, not Spain, and would not enter Spain until after Baylen and even then 90,000 of them remained in central Europe under Davout.

Thanks Brechtel! Yes, I was referring to those troops sent as part of the occupation and then the initial response to the Spanish uprising.

In any case, it sounds like Gribeauval 8- and 4-pdrs would be more common for most of the formations that served in the peninsula for long periods.

Generally speaking, the Gribeauval 4- and 8-pounders were the field pieces employed in Spain.

For the artillery aspect of the 1809 campaign in Bavaria and Austria, Volume I of Campagne de 1809 en Allemagne et en Aurtiche by Commandant Charles-Gaspard-Louis Saski has primary source material on the artillery assigned to newly organized and forming Army of Germany.

Highly recommended.

link