"Russian Horse Guards, 1805-07" Topic

I'm working on converting this unit in 1/72 plastic.

One source shows me a shabraque with a curved back corner, and the edging made of a yellow cross/diamond pattern on red background, also on the pistol holster covers. That's a source I found here.

Other sources indicate two yellow stripes with a red strip in between. The back corners square.

The overall shabraque color is blue. There's really no dispute, there.

The more elaborate pattern would be, of course, a much bigger challenge on a 1/72 horse. I welcome such a challenge, but after some experience, the last thing I want is to do the hard work, only to find the simpler modeling solution was actually the accurate one!

The easiest paint job is always the correct one.

Helmets of the Guards Heavy Cavalry, introduced in 1803:
1 – squadron trumpeter;
2 – headquarters trumpeter (non-commissioned officer);
3 – non-commissioned officer;
4 – private;
5 – chief officer;
6 – general;
7 – the uniform of the chief officer;
8 – cuirassier in full marching uniform.

@Cuprum – which publication has that excellent page been extracted?

This illustration is from the Russian "Military Historical Journal". I don't remember the number and year. This magazine published several large series of color tablets on the Russian army of various times. Very useful stuff.

Yes well W, I'm still confused about 'which' of the units you are referring too, or both, as much as with your previous startup back in July- TMP link

There were two 'heavy' regiments, Kurassier if I'm not mistaken, both ignominious named/titled and/ or translated, nothing of which above clarifies for me. [Note I don't expect to create ANY Russian Guards for my small force, but never say never as they recommend… but it is interesting].

So, are we talking:

In 1805:
- Lifeguard Horse Regiment (Horse Guard) x 5 squadrons or
- Chevaliers Garde Regiment x 5 squadrons

>>Helmets of the Guards Heavy Cavalry, – what all of them?

I did trip across this site I've never seen before- it is/ has fallen into disrepair and many artifacts are missing, but worthy a skim around [the name leaves something to be desired, but I put that down to language misunderstandings (or not)]:

ARMY OF ALEXANDER I by JOHN SLOAN

He (who is?) explains these pics from Viskovatov with addition of some English, which is a help not having to use translator.
BTW on that subject, I now use online-translator.com/# which is both instantaneous AND without annoyance of advertising and petulant moron-checking. M$not-Collins-Webster-Gugle conflab can go kiss my a$$ forever…

Main pages- link
and link

>>Cavalryguard Regiment – 1804 – 1806, Private [spelling as original].
link

[see what I mean about 'naming/ titles'?!]
cheers d

According to Kabovski, there is a rounded corner with diced yellow and scarlet border to the saddle cloth until 1809, then the same pattern squared off until 1811. The pattern shown above dates from 1811/12 – according to Kabovski. This source has been used to contradict Viskovatov in a number of posts on this site, ie the kiwer and it's scarcity.

Here's a link to the source. You have to scroll down about 3/4 of the way to find this info:
link

Also, the illustration immediately above is from Viskovatov, the information from which is disputed by Kabovski. If you are going to cite Kabovski and clad your Borodino Russians in the 1809 issue shako, then you have to buy this, too.

The Viskovatov have many mistakes that stem from the fact that he used official orders, created at the state level in his work. But in practice, many issues of the appearance of regiments and subunits were solved based on the capabilities available on the ground. Hence, serious deviations from the regulations are possible, which were not reflected in official documents ..
According to your link, very serious Russian research from reputable scientists was used as sources of information. I would be inclined to trust them.
It is a pity that I do not have access to many of these books, I am not able to verify your information.

>>This source has been used to contradict Viskovatov in a number of posts on this site,

Yep I get that. Nonetheless, its a version, accurate or otherwise.
He'd probably defend himself on here as well, by saying "I drew what the regulations said. If nobody wore it that's not my fault…"
Which, actually, you can't argue against.
Not worried either way, I tend to triple check resources whenever possible.
But you still didn't answer the question- which regiment?
cheers d ;-)

Horse Guards.

W, how's progress on this unit?

Along with TMP link I'm almost tempted to add these to my 'long list' of projects.. almost but I won't.

After all not likely to forget a unit that rolled over a French battalion left hanging in the breeze by some idiot generals!

regards
d

Trust me, SHaT, you don't want this conversion project.

Right now I'm waiting for the first printing of the collars and shabraques from my CAD program. The fine patterns cannot be painted by hand at 1/72, especially on a whole unit. Once I have the correct sizes of these components, I'll incorporate them into the painting process.

The conversion is pretty nightmarish, too. The only cavalry that have the right bodies are the HaT Russian early dragoons. I've come THIS close to a Zvezda cuirassier head swap with a crest plume of green stuff, because the HaT dragoon helmet is not great. But that would sacrifice an entire set of Zvezda cuirassiers, just for the heads. I'm eccentric, but that's over the top.

Just as an example of what a pain this conversion is, when Russian cavalry carry no carbines, they wear their cartouche belts over their left shoulders, like everybody else. But when they also carry carbines, they wear the straps cross-wise, with the cartouche belt now moved to the right shoulder. That means the cartouche has to be carved off the right hip and glued back on over the left hip.

One over the top element I AM doing is recreating the dragoon style saber guard in fine wire. The HaT version is just a blob, and the blade is round – or worse – in section.

I hit on the idea of using Italeri French Carabiniers, as I could use their horses as well, with the paper shabraques over them. The legs have the right height boots, and they come with carbines. And I can put their heads on Zvezda French Cuirassiers for an extra fine Carabinier unit.

There's more to it than that, but you get the idea. I've been working on these guys since I don't know when. Lord knows when they'll be done. I'll post photos.

Wow that is dedication man…

I have no room to complain about my few bits and pieces like swapping a few metal heads, filing grooves and repairing scabbards; swapping arms for carbines (escorts); adding correct plumes etc. and epaulettes and aiguillettes now and again.
The things we do for love….
((actually right now I'm designing some [micro] desert scenery [dunes] for a games weekend affair at end of month. A bit of 'relief' helps then I think…
;-) cheers d

I've been converting plastic figs since 1968, when a friend showed me how to carve down a WW II helmet to an ACW forage cap. Those figs later wound up with Napoleonic modeling clay shakos on top of those forage caps.

This is the final challenge. From here I'll just be painting for a good long while before doing anything this crazy again, if I ever do anything this crazy again.

Crazy comes and goes I find ;-))

Reversing previous 'decisions' is much easier now- probably lack of actual playing no longer influences my thoughts as much… hmmm.. keep up the good work,
d

I've been working on and researching this shabraque for a long time now, and was intrigued by this web site:

link

Which illustrated a shabraque with a curved back corner and a yellow-and-red diced pattern at the edge. This is the web site that first posited that the "1812 Kiver" was not actually issued to many units and was not common in 1812. This gained quite a bit of popularity, and there are now numerous minis being created with the earlier, 1809 shako.

Fair enough, but on the Horse Guards shabraque, maybe they are wrong. I have NEVER seen this style shabraque anywhere else. Every illustration I've seen (see both illustrations above) shows the simpler banded pattern. I even saw a movie with a big painting on the wall of the Horse Guards, wearing the 1805 helmet, and the banded border shabraque. You can always tell the Horse Guards by the blue field of the shabraque.

So I'm inclined to believe that the pattern depicted 3/4 of the way down the page on the referenced web site is no more than horse pucky. If someone, ANYONE, can show me the diced pattern anywhere else besides that web site, I'll continue to pursue it. Otherwise, I'm out.

@Widowson,

Very strange, I have had a look at Zeughaus issue number 8 which is cited – but the illustrations are the squared off shabraque!

Looking at the quoted sources , using footnote 171 – it relates to the book on Alexander's cavalry – see link

As I don't have access to this so cannot comment on the new research.

Ian

It's hard to read the tiny pictures, but it looks to me like the Guard Stars are white for OR, silver for officers. Is that your read?

@Widowson – yes.
Will post a proper sized copy of the Zeughaus article when I get back home tonight for download.

Thanks for that. I'm still leaning toward the curved shabraque with the diamond pattern at the edge, partly because I figured out how to make my CAD program reproduce it!

Zeughaus extract
link

Many thanks. You don't happen to have an English translation, do you?

Unfortunately not…

Can you tell us anything about what the Zeughaus extract says?

Will see what I can do over the next few days resorting to google translate or similar as I extract the sections from the pdf.

Still working on the translation but see illustrations from Life Guards Regiment, 1731-1847
link
link

Thanks for those. Makes me feel better about going to all the trouble.

Dear Prince,

I see from your illustrations that the back corner of those shabraques show a big, sweeping curve. The ones I'm working on have a relatively tiny curve. I have a feeling that, once more, I will have to modify my design. Ugh.

The date on the second illustration is 1801-03, so I'm confident this would have been the model worn in the 1805-07 period.

@Widowson,

I think you are correct as the next illustration from the regimental history (1731-1847) with a squared off shabraque is for 1814. Illustrations from the history are at: link

Ian