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"Russian Horse Guards, 1805-07" Topic


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592 hits since 19 Jan 2021
©1994-2021 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Widowson19 Jan 2021 11:15 p.m. PST

I'm working on converting this unit in 1/72 plastic.

One source shows me a shabraque with a curved back corner, and the edging made of a yellow cross/diamond pattern on red background, also on the pistol holster covers. That's a source I found here.

Other sources indicate two yellow stripes with a red strip in between. The back corners square.

The overall shabraque color is blue. There's really no dispute, there.

The more elaborate pattern would be, of course, a much bigger challenge on a 1/72 horse. I welcome such a challenge, but after some experience, the last thing I want is to do the hard work, only to find the simpler modeling solution was actually the accurate one!

Captain Bob20 Jan 2021 1:33 a.m. PST

The easiest paint job is always the correct one.

Cuprum220 Jan 2021 1:58 a.m. PST

picture

Helmets of the Guards Heavy Cavalry, introduced in 1803:
1 – squadron trumpeter;
2 – headquarters trumpeter (non-commissioned officer);
3 – non-commissioned officer;
4 – private;
5 – chief officer;
6 – general;
7 – the uniform of the chief officer;
8 – cuirassier in full marching uniform.

Prince of Essling20 Jan 2021 3:28 a.m. PST

@Cuprum – which publication has that excellent page been extracted?

Cuprum220 Jan 2021 6:16 a.m. PST

This illustration is from the Russian "Military Historical Journal". I don't remember the number and year. This magazine published several large series of color tablets on the Russian army of various times. Very useful stuff.

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2021 2:08 p.m. PST

Yes well W, I'm still confused about 'which' of the units you are referring too, or both, as much as with your previous startup back in July- TMP link

There were two 'heavy' regiments, Kurassier if I'm not mistaken, both ignominious named/titled and/ or translated, nothing of which above clarifies for me. [Note I don't expect to create ANY Russian Guards for my small force, but never say never as they recommend… but it is interesting].

So, are we talking:

In 1805:
- Lifeguard Horse Regiment (Horse Guard) x 5 squadrons or
- Chevaliers Garde Regiment x 5 squadrons

>>Helmets of the Guards Heavy Cavalry, – what all of them?

I did trip across this site I've never seen before- it is/ has fallen into disrepair and many artifacts are missing, but worthy a skim around [the name leaves something to be desired, but I put that down to language misunderstandings (or not)]:

ARMY OF ALEXANDER I by JOHN SLOAN

He (who is?) explains these pics from Viskovatov with addition of some English, which is a help not having to use translator.
BTW on that subject, I now use https://www.online-translator.com/# which is both instantaneous AND without annoyance of advertising and petulant moron-checking. M$not-Collins-Webster-Gugle conflab can go kiss my a$$ forever…

Main pages- link
and link

>>Cavalryguard Regiment – 1804 – 1806, Private [spelling as original].
link

Cavalryguard Regiment – 1804 – 1806

[see what I mean about 'naming/ titles'?!]
cheers d

Widowson21 Jan 2021 3:43 p.m. PST

According to Kabovski, there is a rounded corner with diced yellow and scarlet border to the saddle cloth until 1809, then the same pattern squared off until 1811. The pattern shown above dates from 1811/12 – according to Kabovski. This source has been used to contradict Viskovatov in a number of posts on this site, ie the kiwer and it's scarcity.

Here's a link to the source. You have to scroll down about 3/4 of the way to find this info:
link

Also, the illustration immediately above is from Viskovatov, the information from which is disputed by Kabovski. If you are going to cite Kabovski and clad your Borodino Russians in the 1809 issue shako, then you have to buy this, too.

Cuprum221 Jan 2021 6:32 p.m. PST

The Viskovatov have many mistakes that stem from the fact that he used official orders, created at the state level in his work. But in practice, many issues of the appearance of regiments and subunits were solved based on the capabilities available on the ground. Hence, serious deviations from the regulations are possible, which were not reflected in official documents ..
According to your link, very serious Russian research from reputable scientists was used as sources of information. I would be inclined to trust them.
It is a pity that I do not have access to many of these books, I am not able to verify your information.

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP21 Jan 2021 8:21 p.m. PST

>>This source has been used to contradict Viskovatov in a number of posts on this site,

Yep I get that. Nonetheless, its a version, accurate or otherwise.
He'd probably defend himself on here as well, by saying "I drew what the regulations said. If nobody wore it that's not my fault…"
Which, actually, you can't argue against.
Not worried either way, I tend to triple check resources whenever possible.
But you still didn't answer the question- which regiment?
cheers d ;-)

Widowson24 Jan 2021 4:32 p.m. PST

Horse Guards.

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP04 Mar 2021 1:09 p.m. PST

W, how's progress on this unit?

Along with TMP link I'm almost tempted to add these to my 'long list' of projects.. almost but I won't.

After all not likely to forget a unit that rolled over a French battalion left hanging in the breeze by some idiot generals!

regards
d

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