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"Divisional Level World War II Rules" Topic

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crazycaptain16 Oct 2020 12:15 p.m. PST

What are some of the things you would like to see in a game where each stand is a company and each player commands a division?

Personal logo Extra Crispy Sponsoring Member of TMP16 Oct 2020 12:46 p.m. PST

At that level to me the game is all about command and control, and not about technology. If Patton orders a brigade to attack, he doesn't ask what tanks it has. He needs to plug a hole, he sends what he has.

So I want a sensible system for orders that has the right amount of stickiness.

Eumelus Supporting Member of TMP16 Oct 2020 1:02 p.m. PST

1. Logistics.
2. Reconnaissance, including aerial and sigint. It can be treated in a stylized, simplified way but the effects need to be modeled.
3. Pre-planned large-scale firepower, including artillery barrages of various types (walking, box, interdiction, etc.), smoke operations, and airpower.
4. Weather and Night Operations.
5. Engineering, particularly minefield/barrier construction and breeching.
6. Logistics. I said it twice on purpose.

UshCha16 Oct 2020 1:25 p.m. PST

1) At that scale I would want detailed maps of the terrain, road networks airfields etc. That is a tall ask to create that. I have the odd map of sections of the Bits defence and they have a lot of detail vital in deciding how much to send in an area.


Yellow Admiral Supporting Member of TMP16 Oct 2020 1:42 p.m. PST

Everything Eumelus said, plus:
7. Proper time scaling. Division-level battles took place over multiple days (or weeks, but those are too boring for miniatures gaming).
8. Depletion, fatigue, and recovery. Units in the front line had limited endurance; in addition to logistical resupply, they also had to be pulled back, rotated out, or leapfrogged to recover sleep, eat, regroup, reorganize, replace lost manpower, etc. Casualties are only a fractional impact on a unit's effectiveness, and much of a unit's effectiveness can be refreshed in the midst of a multi-day battle by letting it sit for a day or two to regroup/recover/replenish.
9. Limited ability to react to enemy dispositions and movements. In real life, this results from limited intel, but in game terms the same net effect is often better achieved through other mechanics. Double blind play with the referee limiting the knowledge or perspective of the players is hard to do right, or in a way that's entertaining.

FWIW, I have long thought that units at these higher scales should be multiple stands, not just a single stand. This would allow a unit's effectiveness and sub-unit composition to be represented by adding/removing miniatures, to signify things like the allocation of battalion assets to individual companies, differentiation of losses and disorganization, recovery, replenishment from rear area resource pools or field repair, etc. We accept multi-stand units in the horse & musket period, there's no reason not to accept them in the modern era too.

- Ix

Personal logo Extra Crispy Sponsoring Member of TMP16 Oct 2020 1:54 p.m. PST

I think Panzer Korps does that – you add stands to units to show assets. So an infantry unit gets an attached stand of At guns or engineers…

79thPA Supporting Member of TMP16 Oct 2020 6:29 p.m. PST

I have to partially disagree with the logistics answer. Logistics is more important in the time leading up to the battle than the battle itself. We fight multi corps engagement across history and almost no one mentions logistics being needed in a rule set. There were half a million men at Leipzig, yet no one recreating the battle on the table top asks about the rules for horse fodder, horse shoes, boots or bread. Unless you want to be a supply officer and game logistics, it needs to be abstract if you want to play with toy soldiers.

If you want to try and create historical limitations, you say this unit can move 4 times before it is out if gas; this unit is low on ammo and can fire twice at full effect and twice at half effect, etc.

UshCha17 Oct 2020 1:09 a.m. PST

79tyh PA. Seems we have an entirely diffrent view on waht is being moddled. If a Division was in combat as the only one, it most certaily would have a lot of reserves and also key rearmament/resullp positions and nodes for supply which would be vulnerable uif overun. That is the job of a divisional commander. In a battle with lots of troops fighting over a battlefield tha Divisional commander will have nothing to do. e has set it up and just waits for the outcome while dealing with the infrastructure/logistics win or lose.

To me that is not a Divisional game its just loads of models on the battlefield, the divisional command is not usefull in such a game. A serving soldier told me above comapany levele its more about logistics than tactics.

Prince Rupert of the Rhine17 Oct 2020 2:52 a.m. PST

I'm not sure I'd want companies in a divisional level game. To my mind if the player is a division commander he should be worrying about battalions, regiments and brigades. If you model stands as companies the player gets bogged down in what individual A/t companies and a like are doing which seems unlikely to be the norm for a division commander imo.

On the other hand as we like to play with miniatures abstracting a single (or three) tanks down to a battalion isn't very satisfying. To my mind if I want to model a WW2 game at a level higher than a brigade/ regiment I'd probably rather use a board game.

Big Red Supporting Member of TMP17 Oct 2020 4:35 a.m. PST

I believe Mustafa's Rommel and McFarlane's Great Battles of WWII are designed for games at exactly the level listed by the OP.

John Leahy17 Oct 2020 5:41 a.m. PST

As previously mentioned, Panzer Korps, Rommel, Great Battles plus Field of Battle are all set for that level of combat. I use Picoarmor 3mm figs for it.



Martin Rapier17 Oct 2020 8:24 a.m. PST

What you put in the game partly depends on the time period represented. If it is only 24 hours, logistics, engineering and replacement has little influence, if you are looking at multi day battles (far more common in WW2) then it is all about replenishment and cycling of forces.

Our homegrown rules with company stands do stretch to division size engagements, but they are strictly grand tactical covering a few hours over a family limited area (typically 60to 80 Square kilometres). For larger/longer stuff I use battalion or regiment size stands and turns covering multiple hours or days.

UshCha17 Oct 2020 9:12 a.m. PST

that is perhaps a better definition. Grand tactical has little to do with Divisional Command which is dealing with much longer timescales. Grand tactical is where divisional command really takes a back seat while lower level elements sort out the battlefield which is but a small part of a divisional commands remit.

Crazy Captain, you clearly need to think about what it is you really want to model. Hopefully this thread will halp you to define what you mean.

coopman17 Oct 2020 9:21 a.m. PST

Just play an operational level boardgame.

skirmishcampaigns18 Oct 2020 5:53 a.m. PST

We have been playtesting Chadwick's new Div level game Breakthrough and really like it. Battalion stands seem the only way to reasonably do big multi div games like TOTALIZE etc.

Personal logo Extra Crispy Sponsoring Member of TMP19 Oct 2020 1:30 p.m. PST

Would that "Breakthrough" let you play the whole battle of the bulge? What are the scales?

Lee49419 Oct 2020 8:53 p.m. PST

My WWII divisional rules have many of the features mentioned. They are in Playtest Stage and if you would like a FREE PDF COPY to Playtest simply email me or use the Contact Page on my website (below). The only catch is that if I send you a copy to playtest I'd like to get your honest feedback. That will help make the finished product better! Thank you. Lee

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