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"Final Response to Too Fat Lardies" Topic


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Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian28 Jun 2020 10:30 a.m. PST

Too Fat Lardies have made what they call their "final post" on the subject on their Facebook feed page. If that is true, then gladly, this will also be the last time I will post on this subject! I know we all want to get back to gaming.

This is the final post I am going to make on this subject as I feel that it has really run its course and is not a positive use of time for anyone, However, I am still receiving messages from people who are angry based on what they are being told in the fantasy land that is TMP. This is my version of events, to which there are many, many witnesses. After this you can make up your own mind based on the evidence presented. At all times I have attempted to be transparent and honest and open to answering individual questions. I have not defamed anyone; I have not posted their personal details. What I have done has been done with the interests of the hobby in general at heart and with no consideration to injury to my own name or that of TooFatLardies.

I would remind everyone that this all began when Too Fat Lardies complained about TMP members giving some of his products unfavorable reviews or mentions as "worst ruleset."

Howard Whitehouse is one of the nicest people in the hobby and, like me, a recipient of the HMGS Legion of Honor. He was hounded off the site. Sam Mustafa, the same happened.

Didn't both individuals leave of their own free will? Give me a link to this supposed 'hounding', or retract your claim and apologize.

In the end the atmosphere became such that I contacted Bill to ask if a few basic rule changes might not be useful to make the place more positive. Move emphasis on 'what is best' rather than 'what do you hate'.

I would remind you that his original complaint was about, in his own words, "negatively worded polls" (which he clarified to me privately as meaning "worse ruleset" type polls). TMP link and TMP link

Bill's response was to publish selected clippings from my private correspondence in an attempt to make me appear a 'snowflake' and, as bullies do, I think he hoped a good dose of mockery would silence me.

As I said here in a previous post:

Rich, I did my best to represent your point of view accurately, dividing the content into two posts to address both of your points. I am sorry that you feel I somehow misrepresented you. I am mystified that you did not address this at the time I was discussing the posts with you. I would gladly have corrected the posts in any way you desired to better represent your point of view. I would be willing to post your email in total at this point, to show that I made a good faith attempt to reproduce your viewpoint.

It seems he was unhappy only after seeing how our readership responded to his proposals, such as:

I'm not sure which "TMP" he's been following, but I haven't seen anything like what he reports. We seem to be a pretty civil bunch.

I know we're living in the Age of the Censor, but this guy is nuts. You can either have "robust debate" or be "harmonious." Real debate involves saying things someone else disagrees with and often something they can choose to be offended by. It's also how we learn.

When I want harmony I'll join a choir.


That sounds absurd. This is by far the most polite forum that I frequent.

OK, back to Too Fat Lardies' final post:

At that time I withdrew my advertising. That was all, I simply left the site and did nothing. Left him to it. I did return on a few occassions when people contacted me t say "can you answer this question' or assist someone. But generally I left the place alone.

Except when he started a topic to complain about the then-new "no free advertising for new products" policy. Or being offended because he imagines I'm talking about him. TMP link

At that point I decided to get involved, simply because I didn't want to see people thrown off TMP because they were asking a question that was somehow against the 'rules'.

No, people were banned for posting nuisance topics using sock puppet accounts, then taking screenshots which they posted elsewhere like some kind of trophy. Too Fat Lardies is being disingenuous when he says it's about people just happening to ask innocent questions.

Trophy

This screenshot was posted on a certain forum as a 'trophy' by one of these nuisance posters, immediately after the topic was posted on TMP. Does Too Fat Lardies not know how trolls work?

The problem as that the 'rules' were not applied with any consistency and this was clearly confusing for posters. Why could people (including Bill) discuss forthcoming rule release from GW, another non-advertisers, but not Deleted by Moderator?

As a former publican, I would think he should know this is a specious argument. If police do not give tickets to all speeders, then can I get out of my speeding ticket?

Where are all these supposed posts which violate the rules? I have asked for specific links. Nothing.

(I did get a complaint about a topic making fun of Games Workshop's new clothing line. Out of an abundance of fairness, that topic has been removed.)

my customers were 'idiots'.

Every poster was presented as an agent of TFL attempting to subvert the system.

Too Fat Lardies seems to be deliberately misrepresenting my comments here. I have said that people who post nuisance, abusive topics on our forum are idiots. I have NEVER referred to all TFL customers as idiots, and he knows it.

What tipped it for me was seeing a long term customer of mine being hounded by Bill when he asked a very simply question about why things had happened.

Is there a link? Just what does this 'hounding' constitute?

It was the final straw and I made a statement saying that I felt that companies advertising there should be made aware of the level of bullying so that they too could decide whether they wanted to support that activity with their advertising budget.

He admits to it. In his kangaroo court, TMP has been convicted for 'hounding' and must die. (Apparently, hounding and bullying are the same thing.)

Where people have expressed concern at being asked what I think is a pretty simple question, I have attempted to assist to ensure that they do not themselves feel uncomfortable.

A number of people posted on your Facebook feed to complain about the homophobic comments allowed there. They did not get an answer. Their comments were deleted. One said you made her feel uncomfortable by a creepy comment about her hands.

What I have not done is attempt to slander or defame anyone, simply to try to stamp out what I see as unacceptable behaviour in one unpleasant corner of the hobby.

No, you did not organize a campaign to contact TMP advertisers in order to change TMP. You did it in an attempt to kill TMP, all going back to your problem with your products being discussed in a "worst ruleset" discussion.

This is Facebook.It is not the TooFatLardies forum, It is administered by Facebook. If you see posts you don't like or that are abusive, then THEY administer the page not me. Click on the post and report it. That's how Facebook works.

Wow. What a cop-out. Their excuse for allowing name calling, personal attacks, homophobic and anti-Mormon remarks to remain on their feed is that "it's Facebook's fault"??? Too Fat Lardies administers that feed. They can ban posters. They can delete posts. If they allow offensive posts to remain on their forum, aren't they complicit?

That's all.

JMcCarroll Supporting Member of TMP28 Jun 2020 10:39 a.m. PST

Let us hope it is all over!

Brennus28 Jun 2020 10:47 a.m. PST

I visit many fora devoted to miniature wargames, including TWW, LAF, WD3 and DakkaDakka. I have never witnessed this level of vitriol and bile on any of these sites. I wonder why this is?

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian28 Jun 2020 10:48 a.m. PST

Truls

An example of the sort of thing allowed by Too Fat Lardies on their Facebook feed.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian28 Jun 2020 10:53 a.m. PST

I visit many fora devoted to miniature wargames, including TWW, LAF, WD3 and DakkaDakka. I have never witnessed this level of vitriol and bile on any of these sites. I wonder why this is?

I must have missed something. What vitriol and bile did you see?

Haven't been here in a long time, I see. So how would you know what's on our site?

Isn't it more likely that you are trolling us? Seems that you logged on just to post this.

Personal logo Murphy Sponsoring Member of TMP28 Jun 2020 11:22 a.m. PST

Sigh…
You know…I've been quiet on this…
But I'm just gonna say this…

It's stupid crap like this (from all sides), that helps ruin a hobby I love.

If that is the last of it (from both sides), then good luck and good riddance. Let it go away and die in a hole someplace, alone and unloved.

Enough already.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian28 Jun 2020 11:36 a.m. PST

All the crap seems to be from one side.

As far as I can tell, TMP members have been calm and restrained in all of this.

Editor Gwen even thanked him for asking his fans to stop the homophobic attacks, even though she was also called "vile and offensive" by Too Fat Lardies.

jdpintex28 Jun 2020 11:42 a.m. PST

+10 for Murphy

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian28 Jun 2020 11:53 a.m. PST

An example of the sort of thing allowed by Too Fat Lardies on their Facebook feed.

I reported it to Facebook.

They said they wouldn't remove it.

I asked them to review it again.

(This is why you don't leave it to Facebook to police your Facebook feed.)

Prince Alberts Revenge28 Jun 2020 11:55 a.m. PST

Bill: I've been a Member of TMP since 2003. I'm a huge fan of this site and enjoy the knowledge share and discourse it provides. I have been a supporting member at times and have encouraged scores of people to join (most of whom did). I humbly request that you let this go. In a time of so much discord in the world today, I come here as a diversion from the ugliness of the real world that I work and live in.

I don't care who is right and who is wrong, I just don't want to hear about it. I don't want to see posts about it. I don't want to see headers about it. It doesn't matter who gets the last word. The more back and forth I see the more disappointed I am with all parties involved.

Let's get back to talking about toy soldiers and rolling dice.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian28 Jun 2020 12:01 p.m. PST

Prince, please understand that to me and my employees, this is a matter of survival. They are trying to put us out of business.

If we are gone, then there won't be any more talking about toy soldiers and rolling dice here, will there?

coopman28 Jun 2020 12:08 p.m. PST

I agree Prince Albert. It's time to take some deep breaths and just let this go.

Personal logo Murphy Sponsoring Member of TMP28 Jun 2020 12:27 p.m. PST

Thanks jdpintex….

Prince Albert's Revenge…+10 I agree!

Prince Alberts Revenge28 Jun 2020 12:32 p.m. PST

Bill: I fully understand that but sometimes it is better to say nothing. I think both Mark Twain and the Bible put it best in these regards, "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself."

Personal logo Stosstruppen Supporting Member of TMP28 Jun 2020 2:01 p.m. PST

Prince Alberts Revenge +100

Personal logo Dan Cyr Supporting Member of TMP28 Jun 2020 2:06 p.m. PST

Prince Albert's Revenge…+10 I agree!

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian28 Jun 2020 2:07 p.m. PST

I fully understand that but sometimes it is better to say nothing.

I don't answer him in kind. I will set the record straight.

It's time to take some deep breaths and just let this go.

I'm good. It's Sunday. The day of rest. grin

(Post removed from TFL fan making a snarky remark.)

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian28 Jun 2020 3:19 p.m. PST

I asked them to review it again.

Got the reply. It's "not against their Community Standards."

No way to talk to a human being about it.

As I said, that's why no company should trust Facebook to regulate what is on your Facebook feed. They don't get context.

gamershs28 Jun 2020 3:25 p.m. PST

I have no idea what the WAR is all about. I am a gamer and have been one for for over 55 years. I will try rules and if I like them will use them. If asked I will give the reason I like/dislike a set of rules.

I like tmp because I get exposed to new rules and new areas of the game world. To attack the messenger because of the message is ridiculous. As long as the language is civil I have no problem with anyone who does not agree with me. I assume that uncivil language will be censored in it's own time.

If TFL will not advertise in tmp that is OK but I have bought their rules based off of comments in tmp and they are cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian28 Jun 2020 3:51 p.m. PST

I even own a TFL T-shirt. grin

walkabout28 Jun 2020 3:58 p.m. PST

Completely agree with Murphy and Prince Alberts Revenge.

pzivh43 Supporting Member of TMP28 Jun 2020 4:40 p.m. PST

I completely see Bill's point. What many don't seem to understand is the TFL went after Bill's livelihood, attempting to shut him down by driving advertisers away.

But when somebody is trying to drive you out of business, you have to fight back.

Let's hope it's over.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian28 Jun 2020 4:43 p.m. PST

I think both Mark Twain and the Bible put it best in these regards, "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself."

Sadly, that was before the internet.

Today, some clown can spread the nastiest rumors about you on social media, and if you say nothing, people will believe it. At least I can put the actual information out there for reasonable people to see.

Yes, pziv, you're right too. But TFL also left their forum open to some of the worst people in our hobby, and they've trashed our company, our workers, and myself personally. Even brought my religion into it. Someone even told me religion was fair game to mock somebody over.

Buck21528 Jun 2020 7:06 p.m. PST

I do not understand all the hubbub, but I hope it is dying down and cooler heads are prevailing. In the meantime, I have ordered the big bundle rule set of "Snip! Snip!" from "Snip" that is being released on "Snip". My wife recently stated she may be interested in my ancients wargaming, so I hope to use the smaller scale and use of figures of "Snip! Snip!' from "Snip" to help her ease into the hobby. Wish me luck!
To the Editors: it seemed you were working too hard with all the "snips" so I thought I would do y part and give you a break and self-snip everything to be snipped myself.
Keep up the good work!

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian28 Jun 2020 7:18 p.m. PST

But our Deleted by Moderators are prettier! grin

(Actually, it's automatic.)

Maybe this cloud has a silver lining. Could this finally be the end of those vicious gossipy attacks that have been going for years now? We've faced the lies, we've told the truth, and now if anyone ever brings it up again, we can say: go read it, it's on the forum. We have nothing to be ashamed of.

Personal logo Dentatus Sponsoring Member of TMP Fezian29 Jun 2020 6:13 a.m. PST

+10 to Murphy. I'm with him.

These things are inevitable. (more so in our hyper-sensitive age)

Address it once, quick, sharp, and clean, then let it burn itself out. In the long run, your work here speaks for itself.

It's the internet: nothing you can say will be an adequate defense or change their mind. Feeding it isn't worth the time and energy.

blacksmith29 Jun 2020 12:48 p.m. PST

+1000 to Murphy.

wmyers30 Jun 2020 9:14 p.m. PST

Dentatus is right in that it's not worth too much time and energy.

You have to be smarter than your opponents. I'm sure they like to read all the posts on here.

Quick, sharp and clean while following the rules.

link

Jcfrog Supporting Member of TMP01 Jul 2020 12:36 p.m. PST

You won't be gone because of 2fl.
And he is wrong on the fact that like in mags there should only be positive reviews. If only so, it looks like the media bias. Then the reviews are useless. It becomes a presentation, not an appreciation. Patton said something like if there are 10 guys in the staff all saying the same thing then at least one of them is not thinking.
Trying to demolish this site does not show them in the best light. Honour can only ge used once.

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.