Editor in Chief Bill | 05 Aug 2019 7:47 p.m. PST |
One of our readers has written to me concerning what he feels are problems affecting our website. I've told him that I will raise the issue with the TMP community, while keeping his identity confidential. I will break his concerns into two topics. He suggests that TMP should "actively promote a positive, harmonious environment where people are encouraged to respect others… robust debate but nothing comes anywhere near the vitriol that so often makes TMP an unpleasant place to be." He feels that negativity should not be allowed, and that TMP should not "…pander to the most unpleasant elements who, quite frankly, are doing nothing to promote the hobby and certainly doing nothing to help promote a site that you have worked hard to create, manage and promote…" He says that "this is about wishing to see a positive image of the hobby promoted and at present the discussions… are symptomatic of an environment which is most certainly not positive and name calling and general unpleasantness is the norm rather than the exception." Would you agree with his assessment of TMP? If so, what remedies would you propose? |
charared | 05 Aug 2019 8:05 p.m. PST |
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William Warner | 05 Aug 2019 9:04 p.m. PST |
No. I'm not sure which "TMP" he's been following, but I haven't seen anything like what he reports. We seem to be a pretty civil bunch. |
TheWhiteDog | 05 Aug 2019 9:20 p.m. PST |
That sounds absurd. This is by far the most polite forum that I frequent. Being young, and having served in the military, I'm used to far coarser and direct language than is ever used here. |
Wolfhag | 05 Aug 2019 9:22 p.m. PST |
Bill, We need a new forum for this guy. We should call it the "Safe Space". Wolfhag |
Herkybird | 05 Aug 2019 11:16 p.m. PST |
I think, very often, that we suffer from the problem that the intent of written posts cannot easily be understood. This is where the idea of 'Emoticons' arose, as a simple face shows if something is serious or just banter. I also think sometimes people reply in haste, and say things they might not really intend to. (Yes, I have done this too!) I think TMP by and large is a good natured and helpful site, and don't really see any problem here. |
Oberlindes Sol LIC | 06 Aug 2019 2:04 a.m. PST |
I tend to agree with TheWhiteDog (and, being old and having worked in the corporate sector, I'm used to far coarser and direct language than is used here). And I think I'm in the same TMP as William Warner. |
Montgomery OTool | 06 Aug 2019 2:04 a.m. PST |
Perhaps this is one of those negative threads designed to create disharmony! TMP Talk has been gloriously quiet and harmonious recently, let's not rock the boat! |
Patrick R | 06 Aug 2019 2:10 a.m. PST |
I'll be Frank (Hey Frank !) TMP can be the greatest and it can be the absolute worst at times. I just hang around out of habit, been following some other forums but now that Firefox has locked me out from even logging into one of them it's sliding to the side as reading a forum is not as interesting as participating. I will occasionally add my $0.02 USD to certain topics based on what I have gathered over the years and my own subjective opinions on the subject. I'm sure there are a few who would love to introduce my face to the sharp corner of table and kick me in the back of the head until the corner comes out the other side and others who think that Frank guy has some interesting things to say. There have been a wide range of incidents over the years and TMP seems to stumble from one crisis to the next. As to the why and how, I'll leave that up to people to decide for themselves. But at least during the quiet moments there is a nominal exchange of knowledge and information and that's been good enough for me so far. |
Montgomery OTool | 06 Aug 2019 2:33 a.m. PST |
You can generally see how smoothly TMP is running by monitoring TMP Talk. In the past it's been very active and many arguments ran their course here. There were a continual tag team of people asking for their friends to be let out of the dawghouse. Since Bill locked out the ringleaders of that little group, TMP has been far more civilized. Aside from the firearms thread (which remained contained and didn't get out of hand) the past few months have had TMP running more smoothly than I've seen for years. The Dawghouse is empty and the Napoleonic board is at peace. I think Bill has finally managed to root out the troublemakers and make TMP a place of reasoned discussion. |
robert piepenbrink | 06 Aug 2019 3:43 a.m. PST |
I know we're living in the Age of the Censor, but this guy is nuts. You can either have "robust debate" or be "harmonious." Real debate involves saying things someone else disagrees with and often something they can choose to be offended by. It's also how we learn. When I want harmony I'll join a choir. |
ochoin | 06 Aug 2019 4:30 a.m. PST |
I've never been a fan of the new, stand alone firearms boards. With the most recent rounds of American massacres, I think it a poor look for the website. I don't go there (as others, above, suggested) but they sit on the site for any one to look at. You asked…. |
jdpintex | 06 Aug 2019 6:15 a.m. PST |
Tell the Snowflake that his assessment of TMP is incorrect. However, if said person wants harmony, they should provide each and every member a drink of their choice. I'd like a Rye Old Fashioned, after which I promise to be more harmonized. :) |
Joes Shop | 06 Aug 2019 6:45 a.m. PST |
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skipper John | 06 Aug 2019 6:53 a.m. PST |
Yup, I thought better of it… |
robert piepenbrink | 06 Aug 2019 8:43 a.m. PST |
Oh, Herkybird? Not sure what the emoticon salesman told you, but trust me: when you say something hurtful or insulting, putting a little smiley face on the end will not have the effect you seem to imagine. |
Sgt Slag | 06 Aug 2019 8:49 a.m. PST |
Someone told me, years ago, "Chew the straw, spit out the sticks." It was a polite way of telling me to ignore comments, and teachings, I did not agree with. His recommendation had nothing to do with Internet forums, but it applies equally well, here. We all need to let others speak, even when we disagree with their viewpoints. Otherwise, it is censorship. I also avoid TMP discussion topics which I know I will disagree with. If I go there, I will be offended, so I don't go there. This solves the entire problem, for me. It's called maturity. "Maturity", is a splendid thing. Too bad colleges do not teach it anymore. Cheers! |
Tgerritsen | 06 Aug 2019 12:01 p.m. PST |
Have you read the commentary on just about any news or political website lately? This place is practically a lovely bit of afternoon tea comparatively. I don't agree with his assessment, but do agree that we should continue to work to remain civilized as best we can, which most folks seem to do already. |
Jeff Ewing | 06 Aug 2019 12:57 p.m. PST |
I must read (or not read) the wrong foray, because I haven't seen any 'vitriol' for a long time. |
20thmaine | 06 Aug 2019 3:33 p.m. PST |
As Scrooge might have said : "Are there no stifle & complain buttons? Has the dawghouse ceased to do it's good work?" |
bobspruster | 06 Aug 2019 4:24 p.m. PST |
This is probably the wrong string to use to call the individual who wrote to Bill a "snowflake". |
Legion 4 | 06 Aug 2019 6:53 p.m. PST |
Well some of you may not have remembered or been around a few years back here on TMP. But Bill had to purge a number of members who used to do personal attacks very frequently. It is much better now. |
SultanSevy | 06 Aug 2019 7:32 p.m. PST |
Nah I don't agree with his assessment. TMP seems pretty civil and tame to me. If you really want to see mean spirited rants, then read people's political crap on Facebook or just about any topic on Reddit. |
goragrad | 06 Aug 2019 10:00 p.m. PST |
Frankly, TMP is looking a lot more like a 'safe space' than the vitriolic site apparently seen by the writer of that message. |
The Angry Piper | 07 Aug 2019 7:49 a.m. PST |
When I want harmony I'll join a choir. Agreed. Although that response was harmonious, I don't believe everyone has to agree with it. Tell the Snowflake that his assessment of TMP is incorrect. Unnecessary. It's his (or her) assessment, as in opinion. And there's really no need for name-calling. Not because I'm also a snowflake, but because it's rude. I also avoid TMP discussion topics which I know I will disagree with. If I go there, I will be offended, so I don't go there. This solves the entire problem, for me. It's called maturity. "Maturity", is a splendid thing. I couldn't have put it better myself. Why yourself off? Look, TMP is an internet forum. That means not everyone is going to agree and there will be trolls. Bill has made his rules, and whether you think they're arbitrarily enforced or not, they're his rules. If you think TMP is worth visiting for what it has to offer--you know, about MINIATURES (as I do)--then the solution is not to get drawn into discussions you know will quickly devolve into arguments about crap that has nothing to do with the hobby. I go to the TMP boards that interest me and participate in threads in furtherance of my hobby. That's it. That's all I expect from TMP and quite frankly, all I should expect. I ignore threads that I know will irritate me, and when I see douche-y behavior I ignore it. If I want to read political rants I'll go elsewhere. If I wanted to read puerile posts about members' girlfriends I would have kept my supporting membership and visited the Lounge more often about a year or so ago. If I wanted to watch men older than me (I'm 45) bitch and whine and argue like children over petty nonsense, let's just say I know which TMP boards to visit. But I don't. I have zero interest in arguing about climate change, firearms or current events with people on this site. I don't do any of these things, because I don't come here looking for an argument. I come here to read about and talk about miniatures. My beliefs are mine, yours are yours. We both presumably like wargaming, which is why we come here. Perhaps no "remedy" is necessary if people just act civilized. My country is certainly divided enough. But this site is about wargaming and miniatures. That's what I come here for and that's what I talk about when I post. If everyone did that, there would be less of a "negative" environment. |
dapeters | 07 Aug 2019 12:43 p.m. PST |
I don't think it all that bad but if your going to frame in absolute then yes, there are sections that need to go if you want to be welcoming to all. |
Aethelflaeda was framed | 08 Aug 2019 11:29 a.m. PST |
Anyone using the term "snowflake" as an epithet or denigrating a call for harmony by saying in derision that he needs to go find a "safe space" is very much part of the problem. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 08 Aug 2019 9:24 p.m. PST |
According to wikipedia: Snowflake as a slang term involves the derogatory usage of the word snowflake to refer to a person. Its meaning may include a person perceived by others to have an inflated sense of uniqueness or an unwarranted sense of entitlement, is over emotional, or who is perceived to be easily offended and unable to deal with opposing opinions. Common usages include the terms special snowflake, Generation Snowflake, and snowflake as a politicized insult. link |
Northern Monkey | 09 Aug 2019 1:04 a.m. PST |
So it's derogatory. As in an insult. No sense of irony here then. |
Silurian | 09 Aug 2019 7:57 a.m. PST |
I agree that TMP is way better than numerous other places across the web. I come here for pleasure and enjoyment; often as a break from other environments. Personally, I would rather TMP dispensed with certain boards that act as irresistible magnets to types that like to opine on non-wargaming topics. But, as others have said, I can always avoid those. Agree with Aethelflaeda. Love to read about what wargamers are passionate about, readers informed and helpful replies. Could do without the random postings. Overall I find TMP to be a very harmonious and enjoyable place to visit. Keep up the good work! |
Editor in Chief Bill | 09 Aug 2019 10:58 a.m. PST |
So it's derogatory. As in an insult. A minor insult. Essentially shorthand for "overly sensitive individual." |
Aethelflaeda was framed | 09 Aug 2019 11:09 a.m. PST |
…With the intent to denigrate him or her. It's use here is certainly dividing and intended to make liberals uncomfortable/unwelcome/excluded. Would you it consider it any less minor than calling a right-winger a fascist or nazi which is clearly an offense of the rules here? I see it as equal. |
Cerdic | 10 Aug 2019 9:41 a.m. PST |
I would have thought that use of the term 'snowflake' would fall foul of the 'personal attack' rules here on TMP… |
20thmaine | 10 Aug 2019 11:09 a.m. PST |
I had thought that myself. It's clearly a predominantly rightwing slur on, and dismissive of, people who have a different outlook on life to them. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 10 Aug 2019 4:16 p.m. PST |
It's use here is certainly dividing and intended to make liberals uncomfortable/unwelcome/excluded. Does someone believe the original complainant was 'liberal'? I don't think so. I believe the word was being used in its original usage, meaning "overly sensitive." Would you it consider it any less minor than calling a right-winger a fascist or nazi which is clearly an offense of the rules here? I see it as equal. Snowflake is obviously not the same as Nazi or Fascist. I would have thought that use of the term 'snowflake' would fall foul of the 'personal attack' rules here on TMP… I believe we previous took a community vote on this subject, and 'snowflake' was ruled too mild an offense to be punishable. It's clearly a predominantly rightwing slur on, and dismissive of, people who have a different outlook on life to them. I would say this is the perfect example of the opposite. |
von Schwartz | 10 Aug 2019 7:48 p.m. PST |
A minor insult. Essentially shorthand for "overly sensitive individual True, thank you Mr. Editor. I have been referred to in more derogatory fashion on these very pages…I laugh them off. "Never argue with an idiot, people watching may not be able to tell the difference." Or words to that effect. |
Uparmored | 10 Aug 2019 8:18 p.m. PST |
Guy sounds like a to me. I'm going to look at the gun forums. |
toofatlardies | 10 Aug 2019 10:42 p.m. PST |
Okay, well, this has been informative. In the interest of full disclosure I contacted Bill, not as a "reader" but as an advertiser. I have supported TMP via advertising for over ten years, spending several thousands of dollars in that time. The reason I contacted him was to tell him that I wanted to end our advertising. I sent him a private email explaining my reasons. I don't think my views are unique; many people I speak to tell me that they no longer post on TMP because of the constant sniping and arguments. However, they also agree with me that TMP is a great place to go to to get hobby news. We only have to look at several comments on this and the accompanying thread to see that there are issues. For example, my position is very much as Patrick R said when he commented: "TMP can be the greatest and it can be the absolute worst at times.There have been a wide range of incidents over the years and TMP seems to stumble from one crisis to the next." or Big Red when he said: "Poles about "worst" or "most detested" are usually tongue in cheek but when they focus on someone's hard work they can be very negative and hurtful. A game designer prominent in the 90s just quit publishing games because he got fed up with the amount of vitriolic feed back. Posts such as brand X "stinks!!!" followed by "no, I haven't actually read or played the game but someone told me that they STINK!!!" could use some self restraint or self censorship. A little common sense and common courtesy goes a long way especially in traffic and on a public forum." And that's pretty much my position. I told Bill that I would happily reconsider my position as an advertiser if he could assure me that the small number of negative polls would be removed. Now, as it happens my business does very well in the polls run here but my concern is that by posting negative polls we are encouraging people to post in an overtly negative manner. "I hate this" . "I detest that". Once you encourage that you set the tone for people behaving in a negative and even offensive manner across the board. And maybe that is why phrases like :The concerned reader should pull the stick out of his arse", "", Snowflake and references to safe spaces are being made. All of which are well wide of the mark. Equally, many comments have been made saying that if you don't like a thread you can simply not click on it. Okay, well, you could extend that and say that if you don't like the footpaths of your neighbourhood being strewn with dog excrement, the solution is not to tread in it. However, let's ignore that. The point here is that I am not a reader, I am an advertiser. In the same way that you can correctly say "Bill's site, Bill's rules", I can say "Richard's money, Richard decides where to spend it." I should add that I am not coming to this as an idealist. I run a forum, I run a Yahoo Group, Facebook Page and several other on-line social media platforms where interaction with the public happens on a minute by minute basis, Do we ever get people saying daft things? Yes, of course. However, that is extremely rare and we certainly never begin from a position where we ask people "what things do you hate". So, all of the above considered, I approached BIll and made my position clear. I felt that the small number of negatively worded polls were an obstacle to that. Bill made it clear that the polls were not his fault, but were suggested by his readers. At that juncture I pointed out that if a reader was stupid enough or obnoxious enough to suggest a crazy poll Bill was under no obligation to run it. Bill suggested he should put my points to the readership and this thread ensued. I should stress that at no point was our conversation anything other than civil. This was a business conversation between an advertiser and an advertising provider. Personally I see no benefit in Bill making that discussion public by selectively quoting from my comments, but equally it is, as we are regularly told, Bill's place, so Bill's rules. Bill has decided that the tiny minority of negative polls that I felt were not encouraging newcomers to the hobby will remain. I have decided to keep my money in my pocket. I am vaguely intrigued by being referred to as a "' and a 'snowflake'. However, those comments have served to confirm that the type of response you see here on TMP is less measured, less considered and most importantly less welcoming than I find elsewhere. The sad thing is that I was suggesting a very minor change in approach which accentuated the positive rather than the negative as I honestly believe that we need to actively promote our hobby to ensure is continuation and that with a very minor change TMP could be a more positive place for new gamers to hang out and enjoy a new hobby. That's not 'safe spaces' but simply an environment which is positive and welcoming Cheers Rich |
Cerdic | 10 Aug 2019 10:52 p.m. PST |
Interesting. I've met Rich at shows a couple of times. Certainly wouldn't call him a snowflake…. |
fantasque | 11 Aug 2019 1:11 a.m. PST |
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Basha Felika | 11 Aug 2019 2:14 a.m. PST |
Wow, Rich Clarke was the ‘reader' referred to in the OP? I'd concur with Cerdic, he's not one who needs a ‘safe space' or avoids robust debate. |
Montgomery OTool | 11 Aug 2019 3:47 a.m. PST |
It's very sad that's come to this. TFL is one of the leading rules producers and for them to stop supporting TMP is a terrible blow. I really hope something can be done to make them reconsider. I did see the thread on the Utter Drivel board and thought it should have been moderated as the OP was very rude, but I didn't realise this thread was a result of that. |
toofatlardies | 11 Aug 2019 6:22 a.m. PST |
Montgomery. Bill emailed me to say that the responses to this thread and the accompanying one proved me wrong. As I say, that is fair enough. It's Bill's site, I merely highlighted some issues that would make it difficult for us to continue advertising. I spend more than twenty weekends a year at Lardy Games days and UK and European shows attempting to make gaming accessible at a local level. I was talking to a gent in mainland Europe this morning about attending a Lardy event over there. My hope is that by running these local games days in conjunction with the work we are doing with Lard TV, we can encourage newcomers to try out wargaming as a hobby. We have been struck by how many come along and enjoy the experience. It is then somewhat sad when the reports I get back about what is the hobby's biggest on-line forum is that they are shocked by the personal attacks that go on. It was my hope that by making a small change to Bill's policy, to avoiding negatively worded polls, would at least make a start in changing the tone. Of course I never made these comments in public; I contacted Bill directly to explain my position. I do, of course, disagree with the conclusion he has drawn, but that is perfectly fine. We are adults and he is free to hold his own views, as I am mine. That, sadly, means that I can no longer advertise here and that announcements about new Lardy products and Lardy events will not be forthcoming. It's a shame and I have hope that Bill will change his mind. People may draw whatever conclusions they wish from this, but I do find the 'snowflake' and '' comments a tad tedious but also very much an illustration of the antagonism that I was talking about. I am sure I will get over it without resource to a safe space. Cheers Rich |
Wolfhag | 11 Aug 2019 7:18 a.m. PST |
Wow! Little did I think this would get people riled. I'll take some responsibility for my post since it seems to have offended some people. On second thoughts maybe I should have called it a "No negative comments zone". I live in northern California outside of UC Berkeley. I've been going there for years for Rugby practice, watch Rugby games, and attend lectures. I'm the first to admit it's not a reflection of the rest of the world. I've talked to many students on campus. A "safe space" is a very real thing, it's not a joke and it's not a denigration but I can see how people can from the outside can take it that way. Snowflake is an acceptable label in my area to describe people that are offended and some students in Berkeley refer to themselves like that but some don't like it. A safe space is endorsed by the university: link A safe space is designed for students to have a safe environment where they cannot perceive to be attacked. My intention was a safe space would be where negative comments would be limited. I used snowflake as a reference to people that get offended. Now I'm all for Free Speech so I don't attempt to silence people that disagree with me or say something I don't like. I doubt if you'll find a post of mine attempting to silence someone with a differing opinion. However, it seems social media is a place where some people seem to get a dopamine rush by calling someone out and condemning them for disagreeing or not being PC, sometimes without asking for clarification or explanation. I'm not surprised someone has mentioned politics. If Richard Clark took offense to my suggestion I'll extend my apologies as that was not my intention. If you read the post Bill asked for any remedies for the situation. It appears I'm the only one offering any suggestion but people had no problem making condemnations and talking about what someone said not adding anything constructive to the situation. If you look at my history of posts I doubt if you'll find I'm someone that calls people out criticizing or condemning them and suggesting they be shut down and DH'd. I don't get dopamine rushes by doing that. I try to keep it civil. I've often said that TMP is not the place to change someone's mind so I don't attempt to do so. My advice to Richard Clark is to hang in there and don't be bullied by a small percentage of people. You have a lot of allies that will support you. Wolfhag |
toofatlardies | 11 Aug 2019 7:37 a.m. PST |
Wolfhag Please don't trouble yourself. As a fellow rugby chap (second row) you can rest assured that the safe space, snowflake and comments did not upset me at all. However, if I was a 20 year old newcomer to the hobby then their response at seeing the thread may not have been as neutral. Which is, of course, my point. I am only sorry that this had to become a public debate. I had hoped that when I asked Bill to consider a small change that I hoped would improve the atmosphere, I didn't expect the entire wargaming community to become involved. Nevertheless, I was concerned that my own position may have been unclear so felt the need to stand up and be counted. All the best Rich the snowflake . ;^D |
Editor in Chief Bill | 11 Aug 2019 8:44 a.m. PST |
Bill suggested he should put my points to the readership and this thread ensued. And to clarify, Rich gave his permission for me to post this. That, sadly, means that I can no longer advertise here and that announcements about new Lardy products and Lardy events will not be forthcoming. Rich has forgotten that I have previously told him he remains welcome to make announcements of new products on our forum. I see that TMP is now being trashed on the TooFatLardies Twitter feed, where I've already been falsely attacked for "lack of common decency" and TMP has been called "rancid" and "lurching toward the edge." Seems a lot more vitriolic than TMP has ever been! |
toofatlardies | 11 Aug 2019 8:46 a.m. PST |
Untrue Bill. Those comments are not being made on the TooFatLardies Twitter Feed. Those comments are being made on Twitter. Not by me. I have remained entirely polite and moderate in all that I have said, both here and elsewhere. |
Wolfhag | 11 Aug 2019 8:59 a.m. PST |
Rich, This has been a very thought-provoking discussion because I'd like to see TMP be more positive. Personally, I try to keep my mouth shut if I don't have anything positive to contribute. I may have failed on one or two occasions. Maybe a more positive suggestion would be if people took a "pledge" to Bill not to post unless it contributes to the discussion they'll get some type of an icon next to their handle. I played second row too. When I played in south Florida we played British ships that came into Port Everglades and we hosted a team from Land's End for two weeks. One night I went nightclubbing with a squad of Royal Marines from the HMS Hermes. When I dropped them off they invited me onto their ship and I ended up passing out and had breakfast with them in the morning. It's one of my more memorable Rugby experiences. About 12 years ago we started a club in my area and now the SF Bay area has the largest youth Rugby program in the country. I've watched some players I coached when they were 10 years old now playing for the National 7's team and the Eagles. Maybe someday we'll meet up and discuss Rugby and the game business over a few pints. Good luck. Wolfhag |
toofatlardies | 11 Aug 2019 9:05 a.m. PST |
Wolfhag All the best people play second row! It's great to see rugby developing as a sport over there. For me it teaches young people the importance of the team over the individual. No stars, all players together. That's an important lesson in a world which is increasingly self-focussed. All the best Rich |
toofatlardies | 11 Aug 2019 9:06 a.m. PST |
By the way, I do like your pledge idea. My mother told me as a kid "If you can't say anything nice about something, say nothing". It's the only bit of good advice she ever gave me, but it is worth its weight in gold. Rich |