"Please stop please" Topic

What actually is the problem?

Too Fat Lardies is orchestrating a campaign to get advertisers (and members) to abandon TMP. All of our advertisers are getting emails. A few have dropped us.

Martin

Why not just lift the phone and speak to Rich Clarke at TFL?

+1 to Basha Felika for the direct approach.

Martin,

Since I don't fb and am not in the UK, I have no idea what this dust-up is about.

But, you aren't alone in troll abuse. It takes spells but I will receive emails thru the web contact form accusing me of racism, because I merely pointed out flaws in their arguments on TMP and elsewhere, which always crack me up because these little minds have no idea of my racial makeup or that of my family.

And they always tell me they will tell their "friends" to boycott me and run me out of business. Well, sales are up 300% so their threats must be working.

So just ignore them beause there will always be little pricks from the annoying insects we encounter in life.

"All of our advertisers are getting emails."

I don't. Am I not an advertiser anymore?
Campaigns are part of any policy, so what?
People understand, if campaigns are wrong and don't support these.
And as you said – only few followed.

People vote with feet.
If your new policy will led to less reading customers here, advertisers will left anyway. Campaigns don't change the process. So cross your fingers that your new policy was'nt wrong.

Actually, Sho Boki, people vote with their money. It's the most effective way to get a company's attention.

I had some respect for TFL and enjoyed some of their rule sets, but if this is the way they are going to behave – turning innocent companies like PP into collateral damage in their ongoing conflict with TMP – why would I want to support them?

I'll take my dollars elsewhere.

Yes, this is another aspect. I am sure, that because of this racist (as I understand) campaign TFL will lost lot of money but have little or no effect to TMP new policy.

But I wondered, why this spam in e-mail so much worried PP? Deleting the spam is not hard work to do, but everydays task.

Start giving in to mob rule will only get you more demands.

Sho Boki: mass mailings about meeting horny women or johnson enhancers are spam emails…
emails from distinct people asking you why are a racist and bigot by supporting TMP isn't spam, but targeted harrasment

Ooo.. I like this kind of emails.
One of my customers even tried to rob me under cover of corona virus. Very funny.
Checked my e-mail accounts now.. still nothing. I want to be "racist and bigot" too..

This was posted by TFL on FB approximately 20 minutes ago (EST):

"Good evening all. A quick but important comment about approaching advertisers. Please be cognisant of the fact that when we are approaching a wargaming company to ask them about where they advertise, we are doing so to try to explain that sites where bullying takes place are not a positive reflection of the hobby. However, if we then make those advertisers feel like we are bullying them, that simply compounds the problem and makes it twice as bad. It is my hope that by encouraging the hobby to be more open and inclusive it will allow it to grow and flourish, If we only achieve that end by becoming bullies ourselves that is an abject failure.

I have spoken to several hobby companies today to discuss this and I have written a letter to another who I have been told was upset by several approaches in the last 24 hours. Let's try to do this in a manner that takes the whole hobby with us. Thanks."

Personally, for me, the amount of hubris in the above statement is astounding.

When did TFL become the final arbiter as to who shall advertise with whom – ?

When were TFL given the right to advise any other company regarding their business decisions – ?

The veil on these statements is so thin as to be ridiculous.

This is 'cancel culture' virtue signaling – nothing more, nothing less.

So, a company is contacted and told that site X that they advertise on encourages bullying, etc. Now, that company has to pick a side – simply because that is the opinion of those making the contact – ?

The cancel campaign and bullying against Martin is unbearable.

I am astounded that in the name of "good" this even takes place.

Many years ago, I was asked how to write an evil character. My answer was "make her convinced she is actually a good person".

Absolutely chilling.

Just cancelled my TFL YouTube channel subscription.

Reminds me of old 1940's movie dialog:

Mobster: "Mr Goddard, nice miniatures company you have here. It would be a same if anything bad happened to it. Know what I mean?"

Hopefully this all ends in the USA with a "Napoleon" giving the mob a little grapeshot….then followed by 20+ years of the First Empire with said "Napoleon" as Emperor…..

Whether or not one agrees or disagrees with TMP should have no bearing on PP being "allowed" to advertise here. Martin has a right to do what he wants. PP has always provided great service to me. While at times I do not agree with some decisions on TMP, I would not harass or bother someone who spends their money to post ads here.

Does the UK have legislation regarding internet harassment?

I have now had 3 e mails asking me to justify to them personally why I advertise on TMP.

The Cheek!

In addition , if I do advertise on TMP I am a racist, bigot and bully by association.

I'd document all the emails (dates, sender's details, etc), save them in a special folder, and then:

Enjoy Sunday as usual, and then:

Next week look up libel and defamation in the UK.

I don't do 15mm anymore, but I've bought many figures from Peter Pig/Brookhurst in the past. Why exactly gives TFL the right to do this sort of harassment? Seems like something authorities should be involved in. Is there a U.K. version of the FCC?

From what I have seen I find the entire affair to be childish and I support neither party in this cluster F……

Wow. This escalated rather quickly.

I think both sides should perhaps take a deep breath. I understand you might have been annoyed Bill, with some posters breaking some of your rules, but I sincerely doubt TFL encouraged them to do so. In fact, did they not try to stop such posting?

But by banning all mention of The Rules That Cannot be Named, you might have cost TFL some sales. So one might suggest that the first one to financially hurt the other was TMP.

Now, it seems some advertisers have left, and thus you have been hurt financially. So both of you have hurt the other, have you not?

I guess some advertisers have been approached by supporters of TFL threatening to never buy their products again? How is this different from various supporters of TMP in this very thread threatening to boycott TFL? Again, both sides fans are seeking to hurt the others idols, and again I sincerely doubt either Bill or Rich are explicitly telling everyone to do that.

This is very ugly. I'd say silly, but sadly people's livelihoods are being affected, whether in the Third World or not.

And all over a policy suggested by a spammer.

Tony S +1

I'd completely forgotten that the change to forum rules on ‘promoting' new releases was promoted by a single post by a (Brazilian?) trouble-maker, wasn't it?

He must be enjoying the collateral damage to TMP that he's done a year down the line.

Ugh. the world right now is ugly enough with what is going on, not it has to spill over into our hobbies. I think that it is one's right to choose what site they want to advertise or go to. I come here for the games, information, etc, not for campaigns against one another. Let's hit the brakes a bit and leave the advertisers along who are here and have been here for as long as I remember. Martin and is family are good people and should not be harassed. There is so much hate out there right now. Let's be sensible men and women and move on.

Of course the UK has laws about internet harassment, quite tough ones.

If Martin has received threats or even ‘hate' messages he should report them to the police (but maybe risk being accused of being a snowflake by the ‘manly men' here)

But it's not against the law to write to a manufacturer asking him to reconsider his advertising policy (be judged by the friends he keeps, if you like) and/or be warned that the writer may otherwise choose to take his business elsewhere.

No different to a brand dropping its sponsorship of a high profile celebrity or business after a scandal that reflects badly on them – like Lance Armstrong over drug abuse or Sea World post-Blackfish

Of course, there are plenty of gamers who could not string together a coherent and polite mail if they tried, and I'm sure some of the mails Martin received were abusive and inappropriate , which is indefensible.

Maybe the companies getting bullied by TFL should band together and have an attorney contact them and tell them to cease and desist or face legal actions. an idea anyway.

While it will mean very little for the foreseeable future, I do hope the UK con organizers are getting wind of all this. It's sort of the industry equivalent of leaving a floater in the pool.

Can't say I've been "contacted" yet, and almost look forward to it. I haven't told anyone he needs an emergency encephalrectalectomy in a long time, and my reply to any such attempt to recruit or simply intimidate me might not be as polished.

UP PP!

TVAG

It really is like the Inquisition isn't it? "Cpnfess your sins!" Or maybe the Soviet show trials.

Either way it disgusts me. I just finished a Viking army, but I think I'll email Brookhurst tomorrow and add some PP figures to the army.

So far I have nothing from TFL but have recruitment email from TMP to be involved on their side. And if all, what Editor Gwen tells me, is true, then attacks from TFL are really disgusting and reminded muscovites behaviour indeed as Dn Jackson mentioned.
But I cannot be involved until I get nothing from TFL. I have no e-mail addresses to answer. And I like to answer to such kind of letters. ;-)

My position here is clear.
I come to TMP to show my works and talk with people on forums.
Under new policy I am not allowed to do this anymore.
Does Bill bullied me with his new policy? Yes, he did, but..
This is Bill's territory and his rules.
I becomes advertiser because I wanted to thanks Bill for previous years, not because I approve his new policy. It is not my business to approve or not approve Bill's policies.
I may vote only with feet, or as Extrabio1947 says, with money.
And I am still here. Yet.

Thanks, Sho Boki. And your Hobby News stories are featured in the TMP sidebars for THIRTY DAYS! Far better than some forum post that drifts to the bottom of the homepage.

And by the way, TMP advertisers, if you were wondering who guided the mob where to look for the TMP advertisers list…

TMP link

and again I sincerely doubt either Bill or Rich are explicitly telling everyone to do that.

They orchestrated it on the TFL Facebook feed. See my link directly above.

I only hope that you are right, Bill, that this is far better.
I am not sure about this yet.
I think, that on the contrary, News Stories goes to oblivion much faster.
Because reminders on sidebar are not live reactions.

All my communication with people are limited with advertises now.
This in not why I am and many others are here.

But I hope that you will be right.
This means, that people will come here not to communicate and discuss as earlier but only to see dummy advertises.

Or maybe we invent something new as a way to talk about sculpts?

This will be nice..

Well if it's a choice between Peter Pig and TFL, my purchases will go to Peter Pig.

TFL rules always seem incomplete to me and one is supposed to fill in the details by "playing the period", or your existing knowledge of history. Trying to sort out these kind of details mid game is like trying negotiations between sharks with blood in the water. :-)

Actually there are no need to invent something new.
It will be enough to add new section to Napoleonics forums. And exactly to Forums, not somewhere behind the corner.
"Producers worktables" or something.
And every registered advertiser may have there one theme, like "Sho's sculpts" for example.
And entering to this theme don't lead you to first but last page.
That is all what we need.

And these themes may even be limited with approximately 10 pages, so first pages will be automatically erased after new ones occur.

I recall TFL was a lot of trouble back when the Bolt Action section began here. All they could do was whine about CofC being so much better and how lame BA was.

"I have had a civil conversation with Richard about this matter. Richard informs me that he has instructed all of his followers to not contact Peter Pig. I thank Richard for drawing this matter to a close"

martin at Peter Pig

Martin, that's good to hear – can't have stalwarts of the UK hobby falling out over something like this, and any inappropriate or excessively aggressive mails from a very small minority of his fan base – fans rather than ‘followers' I think – sadly, it's like a football supporters club – the few will always act badly and give the vast majority an undeserved reputation.

That's good new Martin. It shouldn't have really gone this far in the first places but hopefully its over now.

Given that TF! rules seem to have slightly smutty titles, with a sub Carry On style of humour, I do not feel they are in any position to judge what is a positive view on anything

Yeah it's great news Richard called off his mob…

His FB post:
"Could I please request that anyone thinking of contacting Martin Goddard or Peter Pig about their adverting DO NOT do so. Martin fully understands the issues as I have explained them to him. He doesn't need anyone reminding him of them. I do hope that is clear."

Or as I read it: feel free to keep harassing other advertizers.

Martin,

You have my utmost support. I find TFL's encouragement for a mob to attack you to be outrageous frankly. I dont know what has come over Rich Clarke, I used to count him as a friend. His current behaviour, of inciting a mob to attack innocent 3rd parties is beyond bullying.

I had intended to buy a copy of his latest Ancients skirmish game just released but not now. I cannot bring myself to support such behaviour.

Instead I will be buying a copy of your latest release.

Be strong in the face of this mob.

Nick

And here was I thinking this was all about having fun with toy soldiers?

Nick

While I share your disquiet how a stupid spat has got out of hand, to the benefit of no-one, "Inciting a mob to attack innocent 3rd parties" seems a bit melodramatic to me.

From what I see from the various FB pages, Rich suggested that his readers (not followers/fans/gang members) might want to ASK advertising companies to reconsider their advertising policy in the light of several allegations he has made about the editorial policy here – just like any company does if they sponsor a celebrity or organisation that is suddenly involved in a scandal that reflects badly on the sponsor.

There's always going to be some idiots who act inappropriately and write offensively under those circumstances but it's an unintended consequence.

Personally, I'd rather that Rich and Bill had sorted this out behind closed doors and, if that proved impossible, that Rich had written privately to other advertisers expressing his concerns rather than opening it up to ‘the mob'

Basha.

You really must more naive than you sound if you think that post is anything less than incitement to harass.

To claim that it is the fault of individuals (who's behaviour on 'social' media is well known) 'misinterpreting' his intentions is laughable.

This not an orderly debate we are talking about, it is Facebook; the home of harassment & unsocial behaviour.

Gildas, ok, maybe I am naive and unfamiliar with the way social media works but…

I have read the various relevant posts (and comments) on both the main TFL and TMP Facebook pages.

I note that Bill and Gwen have posted on the TFL pages without being silenced/edited in any way as far as I can see. The obnoxious comments made by Thaddeus (?) from Frothers have been deleted and I think he's now blocked from that site.

I note that hundreds of comments have been deleted from the relevant topic over on the TMP page, despite being all about ‘free speech' – I read some that were mildly critical of Bill's policies here, as well as a few that very quite offensive personal attacks – but I've never seen such heavy handed editing of threads, making them virtually unreadable, even on much more contentious sites than about bloody wargaming.

What conclusions should I draw from that?

Basha, perhaps you should read the posts from Martin, of Peter Pig, who was similarly singled out for harassment by TFL and/or their "fanboys".

I found that to be very enlightening as well as disgusting.

Clearly, someone/many are orchestrating a social media harassment campaign and hit job against TMP, their advertisers, and Peter Pig, among others.

What conclusions should I draw from that?

That you don't understand how moderating social media works?

but I've never seen such heavy handed editing of threads

Well, you can see it here because of the way it is set up. When something is edited or a post deleted, a marker remains with an indication that something was deleted. Old school.

On a "more modern" social media forum, if I want to remove something, I can make it entirely go away and you would never know it was there.

You have no idea how much editing goes on in many other media forums. You do have that idea here.

Comparing the trace evidence left by a more open and transparent approach to one that leaves no indication of post hoc changes isn't particularly meaningful.

The other conclusion you can draw is that the people supporting TFL on this issue are posting lots of material that needs to be edited. While you can't judge each edited post for whether or not you think it should have been edited or not, the other harassing behaviour reported by other posters corroborates that idea.