"Is it just me...?" Topic

Or is there something unethical about the owner of a (ahem) rival website showing people how to contact all of our advertisers, to try to 'cancel' TMP?

Just unsavory, perhaps?

Morally repugnant?

It does seem a bit underhanded. People can argue their point but trying to pull others into the fray to bolster their position seems crappy.

Some people are psychopaths and/or sociopaths, Bill.

Best to just ignore them, since they hate that.

It's kind of like dealing with the "leader" of North Korea.

Best to just ignore them, now that you've brought this to the attention of your members and advertisers, since they hate that most of all.

Being ignored drives them crazy, since they crave attention.

If you can't win in the marketplace, get a mob to strip your opponent of their support.

It's not like he instigated it though.
He just responded to a request.

What the hell is going on…

Unethical? That is a subjective call.

Another subjective call is funny. Especially with all the huff about GDPR to find an EU business culling personal data from the web without the data subjects' permission.

This seems like someone continuing TFL's bullying against TMP. And unethical to me since the stated intent of TFL is to get all TMP advertisers to quit and therefore shut down TMP.

Would TFL be OK if someone started a campaign to tell all of its customers that they were a horrible group of people and thus should not do business with them?

Totally viewed out of context, which you could gave seen had not Bill deleted all posts on the thread.
Etotheopi, it wasn't a UK business, it was an individual poster/

Who cares about IDIOTS?

You apparently "hurt someones feelings" and now-a-days that is a most horrendous and inconceivable thing. Right or wrong matters not!

TFL's latest post on their FB account:

"Could I please request that anyone thinking of contacting Martin Goddard or Peter Pig about their adverting DO NOT do so. Martin fully understands the issues as I have explained them to him. He doesn't need anyone reminding him of them. I do hope that is clear."

I hope it doesn't mean Martin has bent the knee, but anyway this reads to me as "feel free to keep harrassing other advertizers"

It is the most effect way to make companies deal with issues at times, especially if they advertise. Moral Majority and many recent Social factions have been using it.

The cancel culture has gone too far.

Personally I think TMP is pretty open overall.

Let's cancel TFL. Overrated rules. Battlegroup > Drain of Command

Absolutely and completely unethical. Almost a declaration of war if that's what went down.

I like the idea of reporting them to the authorities in the UK for harassment, as well as the libel and slander laws there, which I understand are a bit more stringent than they are here.

Martin and others affected should look into seeing whether legal action can be taken against them for their misdeeds and ongoing campaign of harassment.

I suspect an enterprising lawyer or three might be interested in the case, or cases.

occurred?. If you want results lodge complaints with their hosting provider, whatever agency is involved with unethical behavior and the internet in the UK.

And I suppose if you really want to go after them contact as many LGBT groups as you can in the world. That could be a very crushing blow to them. But could result in a war.

Might be better to lodge complaints.

Totally viewed out of context, which you could gave seen had not Bill deleted all posts on the thread.

This is from TFL's Facebook feed. Are you saying that I deleted posts from their feed? I am not that powerful.

skipper John +1

Bill, I think you and your staff do a good job, you provide a place where gamers and manufactures can interact, as well read member contributed content. Manufactures pay for advertising (TMP is a business after all) and you offer several types of memberships to readers, from free to whatever. Competitors will often try to woo away or steal clients from each other (been there, do that), it's almost a standard business model that runs the gamut. In the Wargaming it does seem less prevalent, for company A to deride B (rules, paints, miniatures etc.) would only rile up the competitors fans, it is an industry where presenting your product in the most positive manner is sure to win over more customers that negative attacks. Attacking TMP really make little sense, unless those doing so are promoting or trying to start an alternative, but what business is going to trust a competitor to present someone else's product in an unbiased manner. You could go to the trouble of filing complaints with their service providers, countries of origin, etc., or going after the trolls the same way, but fighting trolls is a never ending game of wack-a-mole, and pursing this matter in such a fashion will eat up major amounts of time and energy best used else where. In these uncertain times this appears to me to be a desperate attempt to stir up some free press (and maybe get a few new customers) by attacking TMP, if they were busy filling orders, they wouldn't have time for all this drama. Is it unethical? No just business, doesn't mean you aren't going to have to "take it to the mattress"

If you're a rules publisher or manufacturer in this hobby, starting a poo-throwing fight with probably the most significant forum in the hobby is A Bad Idea.
I wouldn't know about TFL at all if not for TMP, and I'm guessing that's true for the majority of their customers.
Really, it's not time for escalation.
It's time for both sides to have a calm private chat, set aside the emotional absurdities, no matter who brought them on (or whom they claim brought them on), and resolve things amicably.

Good Grief, it's a hobby site. Do we really need to be copying the hooligans who think that burning things down, literally or metaphorically, is the way to solve anything?

The truth is, the publishers, manufacturers and hobbyists all need TMP. And TMP needs all of the publishers, manufacturers and hobbyists.
I have the sincerest wishes that everyone involved can work things out and get back to gaming.

Two posts from sock puppets removed.

It's time for both sides to have a calm private chat, set aside the emotional absurdities, no matter who brought them on (or whom they claim brought them on), and resolve things amicably.

The problem is, TMP is not at fault, and there is nothing we can change to make them happy without betraying ourselves.

So they don't like our forum rules? None of their business, really.

They claim their fans were "bullied" here? I'd love to see a list of who these fans are, and how they were bullied. I think you'd find a lot of sock puppet accounts! Many of the nuisance posts here were from socks, and just two more removed in this topic moments ago.

I really thought we might see Too Fat Lardies back down and apologize, after we took screenshots of the homophobia in their own forum, but not really. They told their fans to stop the bigotry, implied that 'both sides' were guilty of it (!), then called my staffer's complaint about homophobic attacks "vile".

Dude,

I am not a sock puppet I was a supporting member. You telling me I'm out of line is laughable. But then again

BTW I'm not picking sides here, you are both wrong on many counts, but publishing personal information has put you over the edge…

The problem is, TMP is not at fault

I respectfully disagree. Take a step back and rethink things.

After some people – who had no affiliation with TFL – broke some of your rules, repeatedly and annoyingly so – you banned all mention of an innocent company's new product. They had nothing to do with anyones behaviour. You potentially negatively affected their sales.

But I fail to see how you were justified in such an action. You were totally justified in banning those posters, but not one step further.

Are TFL innocent now? Lord, no!

Both of you are at fault. Both of you have hurt the other. But I feel that you're trying to suggest that TFL, totally and without reason, decided to attack your revenue streams, and I don't think that is the case. You upped the stakes, they upped the stakes and things continue to head south.

At this juncture, as I think I'm coming across as a pitbull that just won't let go, I'm going to shut my phone off.

but publishing personal information has put you over the edge…

What personal information?

Apparently, someone thinks I published 'personal' information when I mentioned TFL's email address.

Except that it's their official company email. The one they gave us for the TMP Manufacturers Directory. It's been there for years.

Someone = me I guess…. whatever. I guess I was wrong. It does happen occasionally, well for most of us humans anyway….

No, I was being polite and not saying TFL. But it's TFL.

You know, for such a "nice guy," he sure gets triggered easily.

And yes, some of the TFL fans are arguing with me that it's still personal information, even if he asked us to post it online in his company listing and it's been up there for years.

If Richard Clarke is not happy with TMP having published his personal data, then he needs to disassociate his personal details from his business contact details.

Under GDPR, name , postal address and email address are personal data but where that address or email is used to run a business then it is a bit of a grey area. Under GDPR, Mr. Clarke does have the right of erasure whereby he can ask for personal data to be deleted. However, GDPR only came into force in 2016, so the personal data held on TMP probably predates that. Presumably Mr. Clarke gave explicit consent to TMP to hold the data when he signed up for an entry on the Manufacturers Directory.

Actually, TFL are probably in breach of the Consumer Contracts Regulations in the UK which apply to selling online and state that the seller must provide:
"information about the seller, including their geographical address and contact details and the address and identity of any other trader for whom the trader is acting"

I do not see that information on the TFL web site. Funnily enough it IS here on TMP…

How anyone can fault Bill for responding to this is beyond me. You may not like his rules here, but someone attacking him to do personal and financial harm, is over the line and just wrong.

Well said pzivh43.

US businesses without a presence in the UK are not subject to UK/EU laws.

"And yes, some of the TFL fans are arguing with me that it's still personal information, even if he asked us to post it online in his company listing and it's been up there for years".

Too funny.

Well Bill, I guess you could just delete the entire TFL company listing, IF he really wants his "personal" info deleted, in order to "comply" with said request.

That might really frost them, but he does say "I'm not too happy with his use of my personal data." so……..

I do not see that information on the TFL web site.

It's there. Under "Contact Us".

I am just appalled that there seems to be an emerging trend of calls to get lawyers and government involved. The last thing either side needs is such a costly, pointless and ultimately futile entanglement. From personal work experience, dealing with the oft times seemingly capricious application of government law by inspectors, can be expensively maddening!

I am just appalled that there seems to be an emerging trend of calls to get lawyers and government involved.

We're not considering that step yet, though I have to think Editor Gwen could perhaps retire on what she might get from going to court against TFL for what they've allowed on their forum…

I am not a sock puppet I was a supporting member. You telling me I'm out of line is laughable. But then again

I've had interactions with Stosstruppen in the past. He is no sock puppet. IIRC he does not even wear socks I was told !

Never said he was.

I do not see that information on the TFL web site.

It's there. Under "Contact Us".

Ah OK, I missed that. So if the address is published on his web site he can hardly object to it appearing on TMP as well.

Never said he was.

Didn't think so … but just trying to keep it "light" …

Looks like someone with some "sour grapes" to sell.