"Rally for TMP!" Topic

It has come to my attention that Too Fat Lardies, the rules publishing company, has launched an attempt to persuade our members and advertisers to abandon TMP.

When we have closed the accounts of people (and sock puppets) abusing our forums, we are accused of a Witch Hunt. After a week of being harassed by forum bullies, we are now called bullies for daring to defend ourselves.

The Facebook notice from TFL, in full:

I feel obliged to say that with the witch hunt now occurring on TMP, the ritual abuse of any members who refuse to toe the line, the publication of personal communications for mockery, the continuous name calling and insults thrown at members there who are simply trying to enjoy their hobby. I think we should question the integrity of any company that supports that kind of behaviour with advertising. Do you really want your business associated with bullying? We don't. We raised the issue with the editor a year ago and withdrew all advertising when he refused to recognise that a problem existed.

This isn't just a matter for companies. Gamers need to promote the hobby by ensuring that it is a welcoming community. You need to ask the companies you are buying from whether they support or even fund bullying in the hobby.

We have published our own statement on Facebook:

Our website is being harassed by fans of a product who demand free publicity, against our published forum rules. We have called these people out for their idiotic actions, posting offensive material, using sock puppet accounts – and when we stand up to their bullying, we're called bullies ourselves!

We will NEVER give in to bullies. We will STAND for the right to set our own rules for our forum. We BELIEVE in Free Speech, and refuse to censor our members when they have not violated our forum rules. We ALLOW historical discussions, and members are free to participate or decline, but not to censor what others wish to discuss.

Response is overwhelmingly positive so far.

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Bill are you reading the same comment section I am? Positive is not the word I would use.

Can you count likes? 4:1 to the negatives.

Of course, all the trolls are going to come out of the woodwork, like that bully who used to tell 12-year-olds to stop playing Flames of War because it was the wrong game!

And we've already heard from the anti-LGBT bigots, who hate TMP because we don't discriminate in hiring.

People don't read likes Bill, they read comments.
Check the TFL facebook, the issues seem much deeper.
Not taking sides, I've been here a long time

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To be honest Bill, the bullying experience I had is making me gun shy of taking any ads out…Sorry, was a very bad experience. Still love the site. But I hff have seen the bullying first and second hand.

This seems like an odd and detailed post. Not really been following any of this but I usually just focus on gaming topics.

Dadster, what bullying experience? Explain.

Ahhh. I just went back an read the related post. Seems like we always end up with less members as a result and I can't imagine it helps increase supporting membership or advertisers.

Actually, we've had a big increase lately, and getting lots of good publicity on social media today.

I want to support you, Bill, I really do. Your site gives me great enjoyment and your support of the staffers you employ is commendable.

That said, this seems like an exceedingly dumb fight. Do you really feel a public pissing match between you and one of the most well liked and friendly companies out there exacerbated by dragging the rest of us into it is a healthy way to approach this for your business? I like TFL and I like TMP. I don't want to decide between you.

I agree that you deserve to make money, and I agree that you should protect the value for your advertisers, but this seems like a needlessly antagonistic way to go about it. This is an unnecessary fight that will do you more harm than good. I'd say tread carefully, but it's too late for that.

Your hackles are clearly up, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. Shutting down fans is always a bad decision. They don't forget lightly and companies that go after them rarely look good. You should think hard about how you can preserve you advertiser value without picking fights like this.

That said, this seems like an exceedingly dumb fight. Do you really feel a public pissing match between you and one of the most well liked and friendly companies out there exacerbated by dragging the rest of us into it is a healthy way to approach this for your business? I like TFL and I like TMP. I don't want to decide between you.

Do we have a choice? They are trying literally to destroy us, to drive away our members and advertisers. We speak out or die.

Shutting down fans is always a bad decision. They don't forget lightly and companies that go after them rarely look good. You should think hard about how you can preserve you advertiser value without picking fights like this.

Policy went into effect – a year ago? months ago? No problems until now. I think that shows where the problem point lies, and it's not with us.

Bill,

Regarding my experience go check your archives, I am not digging that up again. It sucks when you are attacked for sure. Having experienced it here first hand I would say the best way to deal with it is ignore them. The more you feed the trolls – the more they attack. So, let it go.

Those that like, enjoy and appreciate TMP will continue to do so, those that are haters can't be changed. But there are those who can be influenced either way and a running battle of words could cost you their membership or advertising. You had an opportunity to say what you needed to say – now ignore them.

In my professional experience it is telling when bullies claim they are being bullied. They can't stand being called out for their behavior. Take this as you wish.

In my professional experience it is telling when bullies claim they are being bullied. They can't stand being called out for their behavior. Take this as you wish.

Sounds like you're calling me a bully, but unless you explain your thinking, it's just name calling.

One funny thing I've noticed on social media is that when a discussion opens up, all of the negative people pile in and make it a storm of negativity, and the good people just go Like or make a private comment. LOL

People who were kicked out of TMP years ago for breaking the rules show up, and they can't help but interjecting their little sob story that has no relevance to whatever is being discussed. Oh, Bill is so mean, I broke the rules and he tossed me out, but, but, but…

And then, if I try to ask them for specifics – because I can't remember who some of these people are, or what they did! – they don't want to discuss it. Perhaps because they know in their hearts that it's some little, petty thing that they just can't let go of.

So on Facebook today, there's been the anti-gay bigot, who doesn't like the people I hire. And the transperson who got into a fight on social media years ago with several of our staffers – now she's back, attacking Editor Gwen and attacking my religion. And there was another anti-Mormon bigot on the TFL social media, too. And the cyberstalker from Brazil, the Derek who bullies Flames of War players, and a whole cast of people who couldn't fit in with forum rules here.

I am puzzled. What bullying? Have I missed something?

Apparently, enforcing forum rules in today's environment is considered "bullying."

If you don't give in to the mob, you're a bully.

I used to follow many wargaming related sites on Twitter. I liked looking at all the interesting photos and reading about gamer's projects and sharing my own humble efforts.

Some of those sites started posting anti-TMP messages. I left Twitter about a year ago when the anti-TMP vitriolic content became a distraction from the wargaming content.

This "campaign" appears to have hit a new low. Let's hope it doesn't go any lower.

"If you don't give in to the mob, you're a bully." Truer words have never been spoken.

I did argue against the rule when it was made, but it's your house and your rules.

I will say, nothing in this dispute is about racism or sexism or ageism, and yet I find it disturbing that those who are up in arms immediately go to the "TMP is a bunch of right winger old white racist misogynists" labels. I get tired of certain folks who, if they encounter someone who doesn't agree with them immediately throwing those labels around. That, coupled with the lack of understanding that using such labels immediately identifies you as bigoted yourself really gets me angry.

There may be "right wingers" here, there may be "left wingers" here, but I don't want to be part of any forum who automatically excludes anyone based on political inclination. There are certainly old people here, and they may indeed be white, but I suspect that the people throwing those labels around are themselves white and not so young. Should TMP ban opinions of people based on age and race?

Racist has become the laziest label on the internet- overtaking Nazi. It is thrown around so casually as to have no meaning anymore at all. You do the fight against racism a disservice by using the term without putting thought behind it.

The internet has allowed people to become so thoughtless so easily for so long that we have devolved into an unthinking mob of fools who use prejudices at the drop of a hat to justify views based on narratives drilled into us by the masses. If you don't conform to the group think, you are the enemy, and labels will be the weapon to push you out.

That all said, my issue with your policy, Bill, is that if I see a product coming out and get excited enough about it to come here to talk about it, because that is what gamers naturally do, if that publisher is not an advertiser, I have now broken a rule and draw your ire. Being punished for doing what gamers do naturally only makes me as a gamer angry at you for making me a rule breaker. That is an unnecessary antognization of the situation.

I understand your issue- publishers could have friends or sock puppets come here to create false excitement as a way to avoid advertising. That's not a problem unique to you, by the way. That is true of every forum. Yours is the only one I see choosing to use this solution. As a businessman, you need to do what you need to do, but if it were my business, I would try to figure out a way to channel fan excitement for good, rather than run the risk of turning a well meaning fan into a potential detractor of TMP.

TFL "one of the most well liked and friendly companies"

Really? Maybe they are, but the proprietors have personally been rude and ignorant towards me in discussions here on TMP. As a result I will have nothing to do with their rules or convention games, etc, featuring their rules. They are bullies – they are only "friendly" if you do it their way, agree with their thinking, or are their buddy in some way, clearly.

And that said, I can't believe all the people on TMP who hate TMP or Bill. Why are you here if you hate TMP or Bill?

I.m a bit of a loss. I posted asking for reviews of Great Escape games 1914 rules. They don.t to be on the list of Advertisers. But my post was not deleted. I commonly do this before buying a set of new rules. It never occurs to me that they had to advertise here. Am I getting this all wrong?

D6 Junkie, ask for all the reviews you want.

That all said, my issue with your policy, Bill, is that if I see a product coming out and get excited enough about it to come here to talk about it, because that is what gamers naturally do, if that publisher is not an advertiser, I have now broken a rule and draw your ire. Being punished for doing what gamers do naturally only makes me as a gamer angry at you for making me a rule breaker. That is an unnecessary antognization of the situation.

What ire? If a post is inappropriate, we send you a PM. We don't put you in jail.

Now, if you go back and post 10 more topics after we've asked you nicely to stop, that's a different matter.

And that said, I can't believe all the people on TMP who hate TMP or Bill. Why are you here if you hate TMP or Bill?

I think it's an unusual dynamic of the internet.

People like TMP, they enjoy the website, but they don't tend to become super enthusiastic, fanboy types. And it's online, so most haven't had a chance to ever meet me in person.

However, when someone breaks the rules, and they get their fingers slapped metaphorically, some people just can't accept limitations. Did you ever notice that someone gets Dawghoused the first time for breaking the rules, and it starts some kind of slide where in six months, they're rabid against TMP and storming out or getting their account locked? They didn't like being told "no" the first time, and they let it fester inside, and it hurt their ego and pride.

What that means, in a nutshell, is we get an interesting spectrum – a lot of people who like TMP (but aren't superfans), and a few vocal people who stridently HATE us. And if you ask why they hate us, they usually can't give specifics.

Welcome to the cancel culture!

We only give words like racism, sexism, and ageism power if we accept them as meaningful concepts. I don't. Others unfortunately do.

Because others do, they are used as weapons to do harm.

The internet for all the good it produces allows people to do this harm at very low cost. In years gone by, a nasty letter campaign would take considerable time and effort. Now you can do it almost for free… and scale it without effort.

Current day cranks and the easily aggrieved now have power exponentially beyond their brethren of 30 years ago.

Interesting times in which we live.

Joe Collins

I was looking forward to buying , reading the rules and then tossing it onto my unplayed rules pile…

spent the money on a supporting membership instead…

I like TMP, and will continue to visit and post (once we get to playing games again!)

Well Bill let's talk about name calling. In the last long thread after you implied incorrectly that I was playing the victim After that There was a post directed towards me. In it I was called a snowflake in the most derogatory sense, suggested that I both seek therapy and inflict cruelty upon a small animal. In addition a blatantly political link was added. I don't recall you saying any thing about name calling then especially since your demeaning description of me probably trigged his response. Just saying you should be consistent.

Well Bill let's talk about name calling. In the last long thread after you implied incorrectly that I was playing the victim

And I believe that was factual. You seem to be insisting that I might be calling you an "idiot," for no reason I can discern.

After that There was a post directed towards me. In it I was called a snowflake in the most derogatory sense, suggested that I both seek therapy and inflict cruelty upon a small animal. In addition a blatantly political link was added.

I don't recall seeing such a post. Did you hit the Complaint Button?

I don't recall you saying any thing about name calling then especially since your demeaning description of me probably trigged his response. Just saying you should be consistent.

I believe I was describing your actual behavior. It was meant to be factual, not demeaning.

And the cyberstalker from Brazil

But wasn't he the one who originally suggested your News Policy, and that you decided to implement? I suggested then, that considering the source, perhaps it wasn't the best policy to adopt, that it might lead to confusion and ugliness.

If I recall correctly, you said (to paraphrase from memory) "even a stopped clock is right twice a day".

Perhaps the evidence suggests otherwise?

I did not hit the complaint button. If you did not see a post in a thread that included 18 of you're responses out of the 48 Posts ihave to wonder if you
ignore rule breaking comments that you agree with. The offending post is between your 16th and 17th posts. I can't understand how you missed it. By the way defending myself against your constant attacks accusing me of playing the victim is not against the rules. Your continuing to do so is.

Perhaps the evidence suggests otherwise?

Should we let a mob determine our policy?

Particularly when it has worked fine these past few months, until a few (ahem) fine upstanding individuals decided to cause trouble.

If you did not see a post in a thread that included 18 of you're responses out of the 48 Posts ihave to wonder if you
ignore rule breaking comments that you agree with.

I have no idea what this topic is. We have a few topics around here, you know.

By the way defending myself against your constant attacks accusing me of playing the victim is not against the rules. Your continuing to do so is.

Well, you brought it up again.

Hey, Sundance, I hope that comment about people hating TMP wasn't directed at me. You see that tag by my name that has the TMP and three stars on a field of blue? That means I pay to support this site and its employees. I note you don't have such a badge. You might consider becoming a supporting member.

I support this site and its employees because I like it here and I appreciate what they do. It's Bill's house and his rules, but I am trying to be constructive in my criticism because I don't want Bill to be dragged down in the slop. He's also clearly angry and angry people sometimes do things they regret.

My criticism is in no way to support the really vile crap being directed at this site. I hate prejudice in all its incarnations and the haters on all sides need to grow up.

Actually, my mistake,this was meant to be posted on the "WhatThe Mob Wants" topic. I was responding to your response to me. The topic I am referring to is "What's wrong with certain posts inn TMP?" Yours was the last post about 24 hours ago. In the course of that conversation I did mention anti Semitic remarks on TMP.

Actually Bill,

Have you given a thought to maybe some people are not even implying you are a bully? Maybe they are saying you have allowed bullying to go on even when the person being bullied appeals to you?

Because someone doesnt want to rehash a very bad experience does not mean they are calling you a bully. Far from it, they might just be saying that others went overboard and the bullying was not moderated? And it is a painful memory they do not want to retell.

I am writing this note in the spirit of good will and I would hope you should not perceive it as anything other than that,

All the best,
Frank

Bill and I have had our differences in the past. And we still do to a point on occasion. However, I'm sure the vast majority here don't see, want or like all this "drama", conflict, etc., on a site that is primarily based on "grown" men & women playing with toys.

Some get upset because Bill, the owner of this site, had to dump them as "they do not play well with others", had differences with Bill, his staff, etc., etc.

You know I don't go to an eatery that serves liver because I don't like liver. Then complain about it because they serve liver and I don't like it …

BK no longer serving hot dogs !?!?! How dare they !?!?

I know. The BK's here have not had them in a while. Very few restaurants in this part of Florida serve good hot dogs. You can find some roadside stands that are good. I mainly grill my own.

In the course of that conversation I did mention anti Semitic remarks on TMP.

IMMEDIATELY go to that topic, find the post, hit the Complaint Button, and we will take action and report publicly, since you have made the accusation publicly.

Have you given a thought to maybe some people are not even implying you are a bully? Maybe they are saying you have allowed bullying to go on even when the person being bullied appeals to you?

Dadster, TFL has been quite clear that to them, "bullying" means their fans not being allowed to post what they want to on TMP. So that's me (and the staff).

There have also been accusations that TFL fans have been hounded on TMP, that TFL products have been put down, but frankly, I've seen no evidence of that.

Bill, I hope this ends soon for you. As it is not a fun place to be. Arguing with
them only causes a troll frenzy. Complain to an agency that can them up or shut them down, and ignore them.

What could they possibly say to us upir subscribers and advertisers that would drive us away? Ignore them and they will eventually wither away.

Just lost another advertiser, Dadster.

This is an existential fight for TMP, and for the jobs of our staffers, and we cannot walk away from it.

Did you read what Peter Pig had to say? TMP link

Good to know genew49 !

Sorry to hear that Bill, but I think in the long run this "this too shall pass". But the lunatic fringe will never go away … sadly …

Far too many people on both sides of this sitting on horses that are way too high. Sure, people are people, they get their backs up, respond aggressively in knee-jerk way but neither TMP nor TFL are coming out of this particularly well and those who want to choose sides are simply pouring gasoline on the fire.

I'm cannot be sure but it feels the actions of aggressive fanboi's are being blamed on the respective companies involved in the dispute.

<edit> case in point – re the (three so far) emails to Peter Pig… orchestrated by TFL or overly committed fanatics with a misplaced sense of loyalty? I know which my money is on.

I'm cannot be sure but it feels the actions of aggressive fanboi's are being blamed on the respective companies involved in the dispute.

I admire your attempt to make things relative, but please, name ONE aggressive TMP fanboi.

Too Fat Lardies' Facebook forum got flagged for HATE SPEECH. We didn't do that. Facebook made that decision. (We complained, but TFL did nothing. One TFL fan told a person who complained to shut up.) In any of the TFL topics recently, has TMP tolerated any hate speech against TFL, the company, staffers or fans?

The Too Fat Lardies Facebook forum is filled with direct personal attacks on myself and those who work here. There are conspiracy theory posts about TMP editors who supposedly don't exist. Where are the equivalent posts on TMP, because I don't see any?

orchestrated by TFL or overly committed fanatics with a misplaced sense of loyalty?

Orchestrated on the TFL forum, remember?

TMP seems DETERMINED to attribute every action of TFL fanboys to the company

I think I've been rather precise in my language.

Some things are the responsibility of the fans.

Some things are the responsibility of TFL.

But when the fanboys make (for example) homophobic attacks on a TMP staff members using the TFL Facebook feed, TFL has to take some responsibility. Negligence if they don't police their forum. Culpability if they allow certain posts to stay up.

Hey Bill – my post between yours at 1:37 and 1:48 appears to have been deleted – and I know I didn't say anything offensive.

So to make my point again… the guys at TFL don't run the forums and a business so while they have to take responsibility they are probably busy with the part of their lives that IS their business just now.