"“Fragging” – In Vietnam, Some Officers Claimed To" Topic

… Have Feared Being Deliberately Killed By Their Own Men.

"Recently, the concept of "fragging" made the news again. It was revealed that Roy Moore, who recently lost his campaign for the US Senate seat in Alabama, was in danger of being murdered by his own men during his service in Vietnam. "Fragging" is the act of soldiers killing their own officers and sergeants.

Moore is a 1969 graduate of West Point who served in Germany before being put in charge of the 188th Military Police Company in Vietnam. He was assigned to this position in 1971, near the end of the war when the US Army and Marines were having discipline issues due to the high number of soldiers with drug addictions or mental imbalances which made them dangerous.

Moore commanded a company in Vietnam. In his autobiography, he wrote that the use of drugs was so prevalent, he issued many disciplinary charges against his men with an emphasis on targeting drug abusers. This earned him fragging threats. Moore was not intimidated and he continued his disciplinary tactics. He did take precautionary measures, though, by placing sandbags under his cot and in the walls of his sleeping quarters…"
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Amicalement
Armand

Fragging goes way back. During the Mexican War siege of Vera Cruz, some disgruntled person rolled an 8" shell under Braxton Bragg's cot one night. Blew him through the tent roof, but left him otherwise unharmed.

The Animal House character of Niedermeyer is noted in the end scroll as having been killed by his own troops in Vietnam.

In Twilight Zone, the Movie, in the scene where the lost patrol is slogging through waste deep water in Vietnam, one of the grunts laments, "I told you we shouldn't have shot Lt. Niedermeyer."

It happened and was most pronounced late in the war when discipline of all kinds fell apart.

As I posted here before.

05 Dec 2019 2:55 a.m. PST
Well I can say this after rereading an article about Fragging in an issued of Military History Magazine last night. Yes you are correct on some points. I can't dispute that. But it is clear the quality of Draftees was a critical factor.

As I just said on another thread here. My Lia was a very sad day for the US Military. But was an example of the mess the entire war had degenerated to. After Vietnam the US ARMY had to pull itself up by it's boot straps. Revaluate, and rebuild itself after what it had devolved to.

With the need to send 1000s upon 1000s of troops there to fight the war. Plus all the forces the US had deployed all over the world, mostly in West Germany. It was not long before the standards for who was drafted were lowered. Bringing in some who were really not fit to be in the military. Low IQs, had problems in civilian life, with drugs and alcohol, criminal records etc., etc. Some referred to them as "McNamara's Morons".

Now that being said, many did their duty and their service was honorable, etc., regardless … As I have said many of the instructors starting in ROTC for me in '75. Had served in Vietnam. They were still o active duty. But instead of being assigned to a combat unit, etc., e.g. the 101, 82d, 1ID, etc. they had a tour in ROTC.

And again after ROTC when I went on active duty, with the 101 after going thru all my basic officer's training etc. I served under the command and along side many Vietnam Vets. I learned a lot, and some of those lessons I used thru out my 10+ years on active duty.

So I think I can safely I do know something about Vietnam Vets. And certainly serving in the military in nothing but combat units. Which I wanted to do. That was may choice. I have a pretty go understanding about the military on many topics.

As Vietnam progressed the entire very sad situation just kept going from bad to worse. The Draftee problem was not the only rub. Much can be blamed on the Leadership in DC and at the high levels in the military.

That is why after the war the US ARMY had do so much to make itself a viable fighting force again. I joined ROTC in '75 right after graduating from high school. I saw and was part of that "rebuilding".

Even you, above, wrote that conscription was a disaster AND most US serving combat soldiers in Vietnam were conscripts.

Yes, but I said in the later stages of the war many units were filled with draftees. There were some from the beginning and it continued that volunteered thru out the war. And some draftees didn't go to Vietnam, but to units in West Germany, Korea, etc.

It is a myth that the majority of soldiers serving over the course of the war were drafee's. They were not a majority until the last few years.

That is very true, but as usual the average civilian only has the media as it's guide.

Yes, in the later stages of the war many units were filled with draftees. There were some draftees in the beginning. But as the war continued the numbers increased markedly.

Albeit some did volunteered to serve thru out the war. But as the war progressed more and more units had fewer professionals/volunteers.

Again as well as many draftees didn't go to Vietnam. But to US forces in many locations in the world, e.g. West Germany, Korea, etc.

Probably a practice as old as warfare, though the methods change.

I believe with no draft and an all volunteer military after Vietnam. Few fraggings occurred.

Albeit a few did, but the only ones that came to mind were "radicalize" individuals that decided to go on jihad. Generally they didn't care about the rank of anyone they killed. The common denominator was the jihadis' targets were in the US Military and in turn "infidels".

Fragging was forbitten in the Falkland/Malvinas War… all the officers up from the rank of Leiutenant run BEFORE the battle…

Amicalement
Armand

That was too bad Tango … Obviously Officers should not run and leave their troops behind. Very sad state of affairs …

Very sad indeed….

Amicalement
Armand

Speaking as someone who was actually there, rather than depending on other peoples' opinions, I believe your instructors conveniently passed over the treatment that draftees received from NCOs and, to lesser extent, officers.

As to "Low IQs, had problems in civilian life, with drugs and alcohol, criminal records etc., etc." this is not a fair description on the men I served with with the possible exception of criminal records (not common among draftees either) it fits to a T the dregs of society I instructed after the advent of the all-volunteer Army (e.g. average level of education dropped six years between our last class of draftees and the first group of volunteers}.

I should point out that draftees were usually assigned to their various specialties by the Army while a large percentage of post-draft volunteers were guaranteed training in specific areas whether they were qualified or not and, since the Army was afraid of being sued for breach of contract, they could not fail their training, even if they flunked every test and showed no understanding of what they would be doing when we sent them on to their duty stations, where I believe (letters from at least one commanding officer) that they were found only capable of mopping floors.

After six years active service and two tours in Vietnam, I changed my mind about making a career in the Army because, as I told platoon leader, I didn't want to go to war with people who couldn't tell me which end of their rifle the bullets came out of.

I never felt that about the draftees I served with in Vietnam.

LT

Legion 4

Just out of curiosity, what college did you attend for ROTC?

LT

@ Brass1

Thank you for your informative post. I've done a fair amount of reading on Vietnam & whilst later commentators have a role it is great to hear from someone who was there.

Yes, Brass1, thank you very much for your service. Yes I was not there as I stated. Only relaying what I was told, experienced or read, etc.

My NCOs and Officers never said what I had relayed from a number of articles, etc. I had read, about fragging, years later.

Those instructors at my ROTC unit, Youngstown State University of OH. [The "Fighting Penguins … I don't know how that name came about?] My ROTC cadre never said anything negative about their troops/the troops they served with in Vietnam.

As I said, about draftees or anyone who served. Many did their duty and their service was honorable, etc., regardless … As I have said many of the instructors starting in ROTC for me in '75. Had served in Vietnam. They were still on active duty. But instead of being assigned to a combat unit, etc., e.g. the 101, 82d, 1ID, etc. they had a tour in ROTC.

And again after ROTC when I went on active duty, with the 101 after going thru all my basic officer's training, etc. I served under the command and along side many Vietnam Vets. I learned a lot, and some of those lessons I used thru out my 10+ years on active duty.

I would never second guess someone who served there. As I said I know and interact with many Vietnam Vets, Enlisted, NCOs and Officers. And have nothing but the highest regard for all of them. Some were volunteers and some drafted.

If I upset you in anyway please accept my sincere apologies. As I said I hold Vets of all wars in very high regard. I.e. my Father an Inf SGT in WWII, France. With the 90ID, was awarded a Silver Star, Bronze Star and Purple Heart.

E.g. from some of my other recent posts here on TMP :

Talked to a comrade at a Military Officers Assoc. lunch/meeting at nearby Airbase today. He was a CPT in the Army and flew Hueys in Vietnam.

One of the other members of my Mil Ofc Assoc Chapter I had the pleasure to talk to at one of our meetings. Said he didn't like flying in the AH1. He felt it was to confining. He liked the UH1 Gunship, that was some times called a "Gunslinger". For obvious reasons.

MOAA just gave all of those Vietnam Vets in MOAA a lapel pin as recognition, thanks, etc. I was at that ceremony/dinner. It was very nice. I know it was a very small token of appreciation, etc. for their service. But in organizations like MOAA, VFW, etc., these Vets and Vets from other war are not forgotten.

Then when I on Active duty in '79 with the 101. Many of the senior officers and NCOs were Vietnam Veterans.
So I made it a point to listen to everything they said. And did a lot of research of my own even before I got in the Army.

I should point out that draftees were usually assigned to their various specialties by the Army while a large percentage of post-draft volunteers were guaranteed training in specific areas whether they were qualified or not and, since the Army was afraid of being sued for breach of contract, they could not fail their training, even if they flunked every test and showed no understanding of what they would be doing when we sent them on to their duty stations, where I believe (letters from at least one commanding officer) that they were found only capable of mopping floors.

As I have said on other posts. When I was a Rifle and an 81mm Plt Ldr in the 101, '80-'82.

The Army was rebuilding after the results of all the situations it had experienced in Vietnam. So yes, as you point out some of the volunteers were as you described. For better or worse. And again … With the need for 1000s upon 1000s of troops after the war. Along with all the forces the US had deployed all over the world, mostly in West Germany, but in Korea, Okinawa, Japan, etc., etc. So it was still a "numbers" game to fill all those units worldwide. For Better or Worse …

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Again Brass1 accept my apology if I upset you or said anything incorrect. As Orchion posted and I agree totally :

it is great to hear from someone who was there.

You sound like someone I would liked to have served with …

My Company Commander claimed his men tried to kill him twice while he was in VN and an Army officer. I tend to believe him too.

Wolfhag

Wolf + 1

Brass1

As to "Low IQs, had problems in civilian life, with drugs and alcohol, criminal records etc., etc." this is not a fair description on the men I served with with the possible exception of criminal records (not common among draftees either)

As I said, many did their duty and their service was honorable, etc., regardless of being drafted or volunteered. As you pointed out with the men you served with that may not be a fair or accurate description.

it fits to a T the dregs of society I instructed after the advent of the all-volunteer Army (e.g. average level of education dropped six years between our last class of draftees and the first group of volunteers}.

I don't doubt that … As during and after Vietnam, the Army needed a lot of troops regardless. So I'm sure even with volunteers they took some less than up to standard individuals. Whether volunteered or draftee.

As few years back at one of our MOAA meetings. We had an ROTC Instructor from YSU, my alma mater. [Go Penguins !] He was an MP MAJ who had served in both Iraq and A'stan. And again still on active duty as all ROTC cadre are.

As he told us about the current standards and criteria, etc., for ROTC. We, including many there who served in Vietnam as officers, had to laugh. That with those standards, etc., many of us would not have made it !

However, again even after Vietnam the US Army/Military still needed a lot of troops of all ranks. To man the US military units worldwide. To be prepared fight a war(s) possibly with the USSR/WP, PRC, North Koreans, etc. And again there was no draft. So it may be some of us would not have been officers. If the numbers needed for WWIII, the Korean War 2.0, etc., were not so large.

Believe me, after fighting in an unwinnable (for many reasons) war and then coming home to a nation that called me a babykiller and an Army that just wanted to sweep me and people like me under a rug, I am not easily upset.

I am occasionally exasperated. Also bemused, as happened last week, when I mentioned to a former Marine who uses the same VA gym as me, that in August 1970 I was told that I wasn't welcome in the Addison, Alabama, American Legion post. He was puzzled and asked "Why would they do that?" and at that moment I realized the first time that this guy was younger than me (served in Desert Storm) and our thoughts about war and its aftermath had very little in common.

Oh, well, my war's over. I didn't loose many friends. The lady who gave me my required haircut at Camp Alpha turned up in the barbershop in the town in Maryland where I lived in the 80s and no matter how I tried to convince her that I wasn't in the Army anymore she couldn't grasp the idea and my hair remained short. In 1981, I saw a Kit Carson I had worked with in Danang and had last seen wearing black pajamas and carrying an AK47 getting out of a BMW on Wisconsin Avenue in Washington DC. I really wanted to track him down so that I could point out to him that the last time I had seen him I had a clear shot but didn't take it and remind him that he still owed me $200. USD He still does. The war is over.

LT

Brass1

Again I am very sorry to hear how poorly the US population and military treated many of it's Vietnam Vets. Believe me you as well as other Vets have my total support.

As I said being in the MOAA we do a lot to support the Vietnam Vets. As many of our members are Vets from that war. As well as I have number of friends that I see almost daily at the Y who are also Vietnam Vets.

Believe me I'm on your side. And you can rest assured I and the other MOAA members will continue to give Vietnam Vets our support and respect on many fronts.

If I ever met you, I'd shake you hand, buy you some beers, And say, "Thank you" … "Welcome Home" …

Not sure many countries look after their veterans very well. Kipling had it right, poetically, about the difference in attitude during and then after a war.

UK, notoriously, prosecutes soldiers who have served all over the world, years after, for "war crimes", more in the interest of political correctness than true justice. The political leaders never face the international tribunals that fictional plays would have you believe…..unless of course they are violently overthrown.

And there… is you WON… what if you loose?… (smile)

Amicalement
Armand