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"Orel Infantry Regiment Flags 1812" Topic


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425 hits since 28 Aug 2019
©1994-2019 Bill Armintrout
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Lets party with Cossacks Supporting Member of TMP28 Aug 2019 1:37 a.m. PST

Apparently that regiment, which had existed previously but was converted to Jaegers, was reinstated. In 1811-1812 fifteen new regiments were raised from existing garrison battalions being Voronesh, Briansk, Lithuania, Podolsk, Estonia, Orel, Galich, Velicki-Lutsk, Penza, Saratov, Sofia, Odessa, Vilna, Tarnova and Simbirsk. The warflags site indicates that "The original regiments of these names had been converted to jagers in 1810 and had therefore given up their colours. It is possible that some of these new regiments took the flags of the old regiments."
Does anyone know what the Orel Infantry Regimental (coloured and white) flags were in 1812? If not, are there best guesses?

If it assists, the Orel Regiment was part of the 26th Division, 7th Corps, Second Army of the West.

What sources are available so I can look this up myself – or is the subject of Russian flags so Delphic that fringe regiments like the Orel are a mystery?

Many thanks in advance LPWC.

Sho Boki Sponsoring Member of TMP28 Aug 2019 2:29 a.m. PST

Look at my Russian Borodino Flag page.
There are all infantry flags. Orel regiment = Orlov regiment.
https://www.boki.ee/8BLOG/Blog_0006/Blog.htm

1711.02.19 created as Kiev garrison Ober-Comendant regiment.
1811.01.17 formed as infantry regiment from Kiev, Ochakov and Herson garrison companies.

Lets party with Cossacks Supporting Member of TMP28 Aug 2019 3:12 a.m. PST

Thanks Sho – I see it now.

Does that mean that the Orel Regimental flag is an 1800 flag from the Inspections of Caucasus, Dniester, Crimea and the Ukraine? Or have I got the classification wrong?

Many thanks LPWC

Sho Boki Sponsoring Member of TMP28 Aug 2019 3:20 a.m. PST

I don't know.
I researched for Borodino only and forgotted all completely after that.

Prince of Essling28 Aug 2019 9:55 a.m. PST

An excellent resource is
Banners and standards of the regiments, battalions of the Russian Army
link Excellent website (in Russian) with flags of the various regiments from the time of Peter the Great until the end of Empire;
Russian Naval flags link from the time of Peter the Great until the end of Empire;

Lets party with Cossacks Supporting Member of TMP28 Aug 2019 1:22 p.m. PST

Perfect Prince of Essling, just what I was after. That is a wonderful resource.
Now I just need to find out the regiment numbers to the named regiments. With the Orel regiment it seemed an early regiment, converted to Jaegers, and then resurrected.
I think I will compile a list of regimental names with their numbers, so that this resource can be efficiently used – and so that I can finally make a contribution!
Many thanks again.
LPWC

Widowson28 Aug 2019 1:25 p.m. PST

Prince,
That's a great site, but since the flags are listed NUMERICALLY, it's hit and miss to find your regiment. Unless You have some key or code to how the names of the regiments match up to the numbers on that site. It isn't alphabetical, is it?

Prince of Essling28 Aug 2019 1:52 p.m. PST

@Widowson – unfortunately I do not possess a magic key.

Wiki has the following list of Infantry Regiments by numerical designation as at 1917 which will help unlock a little of this. link

Lets party with Cossacks Supporting Member of TMP28 Aug 2019 1:58 p.m. PST

That site has indicated that the Orel regiment is the 36th – so it kept its early number when re-established.
Looks like my self given task of correlating numbers with regiments will be a whole lot easier than I thought!

Lets party with Cossacks Supporting Member of TMP28 Aug 2019 3:31 p.m. PST

This is the entry from the Link to the excellent resource provided by Prince of Essling above, concerning the Orel's flag pre 1815:

"In 1811, during the formation of the garrison units, the Oryol Infantry Regiment received one banner each from Kiev, Ochakov and Kherson – all arr. 1800 g – According to V. Zvegintsov"

The English comes courtesy of Goggle Translate.

Would it be a valid assumption that "all arr. 1800 g" means the 1800 Infantry flags, and it is then a question of identifying the Inspection which related to the Kiev, Ochakov and Kherson regiments? I understand that inspection to be "Caucasus, Dniester, Crimea, Ukraine", meaning a yellow 1800 flag – precisely what Sho Boki has identified in his link above. But if there is a miss-step in this reasoning please let me know. For example, if Mr Zvegintsov is considered a poor source (I have no idea), and there are other more reliable alternatives, the above reasoning might not be worth much.

But what fun to discover all this! LPWC

von Winterfeldt29 Aug 2019 12:06 p.m. PST

From the specialists at Forum Napoleonic Alexandre Heron

From TMP …. TMP link

In 1811, during its formation from garrison units, the Orlovskiy Infantry regiment received one banner each from the Kiev, Ochakov and Kherson garrisons – all Model 1800. These Model 1800 banners were from regiments in the Ukraine and Crimea Inspectorates, which received one banner with a white cross and corners half yellow and half white (called "white") – and for the other banners a white cross on a yellow cross, and white corners (called "colored").

white banner

vexillographia[dot]ru/russia/rarmy/i1800b1.gif

color banner

vexillographia[dot]ru/russia/rarmy/i1800b2.gif

There is a question if any of the three banners were "white", or if all three were color.

30 August 1800 – In the Ukraine Inspectorate, 20 banners (Model 1800) were issued to Major General Masse's Garrison regiment (Kiev and Kherson garrisons).
5 July 1801 – From Major General Masse's Garrison regiment Regiment, two battalions were designated the Khersonskiy Garrison regiment and the other two battalions were designated the Kievskiy Garrison regiment.
21 March 1802 – Garrisons were ordered to keep only two flags in each battalion – in first battalions one was white and the other colored, and in the other battalions all were colored. Kiev as the senior garrison should have kept the white banner issued to General Major Masse's (double-sized) regiment.
19 October 1810 – One battalion of the Khersonskiy Garrison regiment was designated the Benderskiy Garrison batallion, leaving only one Khersonskiy Garrison battalion. The Mogilevskiy Garrison battalion was joined to the Kievskiy Garrison regiment, which was then made up of three battalions.
17 January 1811 – 3 companies of the Khersonskiy Garrison battalion are included in the formation of the Orlovskiy Infantry regiment, bringing a Crimea Inspectorate colored banner Model 1800. The fourth company of the Khersonskiy Garrison battalion was included in the formation of the 1st Krimskiy Garrison battalion (14 March 1811 – re-named Khersonskiy Garrison battalion)
17 January 1811 – 6 companies of the Kievskiy Garrison regiment are included in the formation of the Orlovskiy Infantry regiment, likely bringing a Crimea Inspectorate white banner Model 1800 (but possibly another color banner). For the remainder of the Kievskiy Garrison regiment, 3 companies were included in the formation of the Penzenskiy Infantry regiment and 3 companies were included in the Kievskiy Provincial Security battalion.

26 December 1800 – In the Crimea Inspectorate, twenty banners (Model 1800) were issued to Colonel Koshelev's Garrison regiment (Akhtiar, Nikolaev and Perekop garrisons).
17 April 1801 – Colonel Koshelev's Garrison regiment was re-named Major General Prince Vyazemskii's Garrison regiment.
5 July 1801 – From Major General Prince Vyazemskii's Garrison regiment, one battalion was designated as the Ochakovskiy Garrison battalion (the others formed the Akhtiarskiy Garrison regiment of two battalions and the Perekopskiy Garrison batallion). Akhtiar was the old name for Sevastopol.
21 March 1802 – Garrisons were ordered to keep only two flags in each battalion – in first battalions one was white and the other colored, and in the other battalions all were colored. The white banner given to Colonel Koshelev's (double-sized) regiment would have stayed with the Akhtiar Garrison regiment.
17 January 1811 – 3 companies of the Ochakovskiy Garrison battalion are included in the formation of the Orlovskiy Infantry regiment, bringing a Crimea Inspectorate colored banner Model 1800. The fourth company of the Ochakovskiy Garrison battalion was included in the Voronezhskiy Provincial Security battalion.

The garrison flags were on coffee-colored flag-poles. Upon formation, the Orlovskiy Infantry regiment would have been entitled to straw-yellow woodwork, including flag-poles.

In 1815, the Orlovskiy Infantry regiment was presented with three St. George banners (Model 1803) with the inscription : "Въ воздаянiе отличныхъ подвиговъ, оказанныхъ въ сраженiяхъ 1814 года: Января 17-го дня при Брiеннъ-Лешато и 20-го при селенiи Ла-Ротiеръ" ("Reward for excellent feats performed in the battles of 1814: January 17th day at Brienne-Leshato and 20th day at the village of La Rotier".) The crosses green, the corners white.

vexillographia[dot]ru/russia/rarmy/1815orel.gif

In 1816, the Orlovskiy Infantry Regiment was given three St. George banners (Model 1816) without inscriptions. The crosses green, the corners white. These banners were issued in exchange for the former garrison banners, in respect of the exploits of the regiment at Dashkovka and Saltanovka in 1812.

vexillographia[dot]ru/russia/rarmy/1816peh.gif

Sources ….
A. Viskovatov
V. Zvegintsov
PSZRI 23.382 (1808)
PSZRI 24.506 (1811)

and

Johathan Gingerich

Excellent stuff Alexandre!
The new regiments were ordered to take the flags in the best condition from the arsenals so it's possible there was a certain amount of horse trading. Zveguintzow claims there was only one flag per battalion, but I've found no basis for that assertion. The 1800 pattern appears to have been issued with brown staffs and staffs do not seem to have been repainted during the era.

JG

and Aφexandre again

"Zveguintzow claims there was only one flag per battalion, but I've found no basis" – nor I – but I felt I should report what this (reasonably) reliable sourrce had said. Perhaps some support to this would be the way the banners of 1815 and 186 were awarded : in threes. Logically, with many regiments being created, there might have been some concern that enough banners in good condition could be found.

Also to be considered are the 1813/1814 instructions regiments to carry only one color banner when on campaign outside of Russia, poorly footnoted by Viskovatov. Is there any other evidence of this practice?

"issued with brown staffs and staffs do not seem to have been repainted" – yes, that is why I wrote the "entitled to straw-yellow woodwork"

Cyrillic Russian had several alphabet evolutions and reforms prior to 1917. A summary : link

In case there are more questions best ask these gentlemen directly on

link

Lets party with Cossacks Supporting Member of TMP29 Aug 2019 4:42 p.m. PST

Many thanks von Winterfeldt – my questions at this stage are answered.

On another topic I have long admired your painting. Do you have any of Russian units, preferably 1812 (without Kiewer)? Any Russians would be appreciated though. If it is too much trouble I completely understand.

Kind regards LPWC

von Winterfeldt29 Aug 2019 11:37 p.m. PST

I have to disappoint you in that case, my Russians would be 1799 or 1807 – in case I would have had any, I painted for experimentation years ago – some few Russians of 1799 – the only exception is my Russian General Staff of 1812.

Lets party with Cossacks Supporting Member of TMP30 Aug 2019 1:42 a.m. PST

There would be no disappointment at all vW. I would happily look at your early Russians, whenever you were minded to show them.

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