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"Austrian Grenadier 1809 Help" Topic


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655 hits since 22 Aug 2019
©1994-2019 Bill Armintrout
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mysteron Supporting Member of TMP22 Aug 2019 4:04 a.m. PST

HI guys I am revisiting my fledgling Austrian force of 1809.

I could just do with one of you Austrian experts to confirm the following as a couple of club members have sowed me the seed of doubt.

1) Grenadier battalions were normally formed from companies creamed off from the Infantry Regiments. Normally 3 different regiments but sometimes 2. I have a chart somewhere of what went into each battalion.

2) They retained their original facing colours.

3) One standard per battalion was the norm normally the yellow flag

4) The standard was allocated to the most senior regiment. Lowest numbered ?

5) Hungarian Grenadiers wee formed separately from the German types. Ie no mixed battalions .

6) Numbers wise per Battalion they were slightly smaller than the infantry battalions .

7) Did they see plenty of action ?

8) The cloth on top of the helmet. Was this in the facing colour of the respective regiment ?

A question I don't know the answer for

What rank of Officer would command the battalion and where did he come from ? I am assuming that the Colonels would stay with the parent infantry battalions here.

Thanks guys

Altefritz22 Aug 2019 5:56 a.m. PST

My informations are related to Seven Years War: however, since the Austrian army was not an innovative one, it may be that some of them are still valid.

1), 2), 7) Yes

3) In SYW they had no standard.

5) Mixed battalion were the norm in SYW.

6) I have no idea.

The commanding officer could be a Major or a Lieutnat Colonel.

Personal logo Artilleryman Supporting Member of TMP22 Aug 2019 6:29 a.m. PST

Mysteron, as far as I can see, your assumptions for the battalions in 1809 are spot on. Acouple of comments:

3/4. This was an Ordnungsfahne from the senior component regiment, the yellow one.

5. I have no record of a mixed battalion at anytime for the Napoleonic Wars. (Anyone else know?)

7. They saw plenty of action. They were the ultimate reserve and shock troops in many battles.

8. The cloth insert on the bearskin was the regimental facing colour with stripes of white lace. There is some debate that all regiments had yellow and white lace but I opt for the former option.

picture

It would be a major in command and he usually wore a cocked hat.

von Winterfeldt22 Aug 2019 6:51 a.m. PST

grenadier battalions for 1809


Battalions in 1809
Hohenlohe/Hromada 1, 29, 38
Hahn/Habinay -2, 33, 39
Bissingen 3, 50, 58
Scovaud 4, 49, 63
Stark/Demontant 7, 18, 21
Mayblumel/Trenck/Locher 8, 22, 60
Peccaduc/Legrand 9, 55, 56
Wienawski/Frisch 10, 11, 47
Cappy/Oklopsia 12, 20, 23
Puteany/Jambline 14, 45, 59
Nissel/Berger 15, 28, 57
Salomon/Welsperg 16, 26, 27
Gregory 17, 36, 42
Janusch/Gersanich 19, 52, 61
Brzezinsky 24, 30, 41
Leiningen 25, 35, 54
Scharlach/Purcell 31, 32, 51
Kirchenbetter 34, 37, 48
Muhlen/Zetlar 53, 62
Albeck/Chimani 13, 43
Hauger/Portner 40, 44, 46


they did not carry standards because they were infantry (standards, usually much smaller than infantry colours were carried by the cavalry), but they did carry, when made sort of organized as battalions after the 7YW an Ordinairfahne a usual infantry colour in yellow, the Leibfahne wasn't carried.

The exception of all this was in 1805 when for a year a complete new structure of the infantry was introduced, but this doesn't have to bother you there you do 1809.

This article by Enrico Acerbi should answer most questions.

link

in case for the whole Austrian army

link

please scroll down under the facings there is a small window easily overlooked which covers each part of the Austrian Army in great detail.

The Austrian grenadiers did not carry helmets in 1809 but bearskin caps. The bag was in theory yellow for all regiments but contemporary documents still show facing colours up to 1813.

Hope that helps, but the articles by Enrico Acerbi should answer most of your questions.

mysteron Supporting Member of TMP22 Aug 2019 7:20 a.m. PST

Thanks guys.

That's very helpful especially as I am about to paint my first batch.

nsolomon9922 Aug 2019 5:08 p.m. PST

They filled the role of an elite infantry reserve. This is the role the Guard regiments played in other armies. The nice thing is that because they were more numerous than Guard regiments in other armies they were more available and therefore present in more Orders of Battle and so you can use them more widely. They were generally much better at skirmishing than other Austrian Line infantry, and they were used as shock troops to lead assaults or defend critical positions.

Very useful to have some battalions in your collection. Can never have too many. :)

Personal logo Artilleryman Supporting Member of TMP23 Aug 2019 7:20 a.m. PST

I read somewhere renadiers were prohibited from deploying as skirmishers by an order of 1807. They were to be kept together as a reserve for maximum impact.

von Winterfeldt23 Aug 2019 10:05 a.m. PST

there all third rank was trained as skirmishers I cannot see why the grenadiers shouldn't be able to have them in case of need in the trues sense of tirailleurs de combat.

rmaker23 Aug 2019 2:00 p.m. PST

6) Yes. Grenadier companies had a smaller establishment, so the six-company battalions would be smaller than the (six-company) Fusilier battalions. And, of course, the four-company grenadier battalions would be even smaller. On the other hand, the grenadier companies were usually closer to authorized strength than the fusiliers.

SHaT198423 Aug 2019 10:12 p.m. PST

I'm with Artilleryman.
'Standards' is just a semantics issue- they were normal infantry emblems.

The OB's show ethnic clarity. If you pilfer the men, I'm sure the most senior officers went with them as well. Competency may not have been a requisite.

And if you are not recreating an OB, then you can do what you want.
d

John Edmundson23 Aug 2019 10:52 p.m. PST

In 1809:
Battalion Leiningen comprised IR 25, IR 54 and IR 35
IR 25 is Bohemian
IR 54 is Bohemian
IR 35 is Hungarian

Battalion Mayblumel comprised IR 8, IR 22 and IR 60
IR 8 is Moravian
IR 22 is Illyrian
IR 60 is Hungarian

So I presume both these battalions should have 4 "German' and two Hungarian companies.

Cheers,
John

von Winterfeldt23 Aug 2019 11:33 p.m. PST

Standards' is just a semantics issue- they were normal infantry emblems.

no – it is just our lazy approach to military terminology of the 18th or 19th century, do we use assault gun when meaning a flintlock musket, is it called trooping the colours or trooping the standards or flags?

A standard was usually carried by cavalry, it was much smaller and usually embroidered in contrast to the infantry colours.

Footslogger24 Aug 2019 1:54 a.m. PST

I don't suppose any of you have information you could share on the make-up of Austrian Grenadier battalions in 1813/14?

mysteron Supporting Member of TMP24 Aug 2019 11:35 p.m. PST

Many thanks guys. That gives me a lot to chew on. I do like the idea of the mixed battalion.

mysteron Supporting Member of TMP28 Aug 2019 2:17 a.m. PST

@ Footslogger

Some 1813/14 info I stumbled across whilst doing some research on Grenadiers is that the cloth on top of the bearskin can be painted white and Kaisergelb ( yellow) as these were the new regulations.

von Winterfeldt28 Aug 2019 5:39 a.m. PST


grenadier corporal Supporting Member of TMP 04 Aug 2019 11:07 p.m. PST

I've consulted what I think are the leading sources, because they both rely on the original Reglements.
Interestingly enough they are different for the date: Karger gives the order to change from facing colour to yellow as part of the regulations of 1798, Teuber/Ottenfeld refer to the work of a commission within the Hofkriegsrath, issuing those orders in 1802.
How long facing coloured bags were to be seen? One of those questions which will elapse a definite answer (as often in uniformology).
Up to now I've never encountered yellow lace for the period from about 1790 to 1815.
BTW: Erzherzog Carl is IR 3; IR 2 is Hiller (or later Zar Alexander). The first mentioned had sky blue facings, the second Emperor yellow.

for more sse

TMP link

mysteron Supporting Member of TMP30 Aug 2019 5:30 a.m. PST

I just wanted to say all you guys have been a great help in assisting me , with my project. Thanks very much again and I think your the best.

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