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"Austrian grenadier bearskins" Topic


24 Posts

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29 Jul 2019 3:53 p.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

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Comments or corrections?

von Schwartz29 Jul 2019 3:32 p.m. PST

I know the bearskins had a cloth bag in the facing color but some references specifically state that the bags were laced in the button color, i.e. white or yellow, others just give the color of the bag (mainly the Hungarians) with no mention of lace. Was this just an oversight/misprint or did some grenadiers not have lace on the bearskin bag?

grenadier corporal Supporting Member of TMP29 Jul 2019 10:08 p.m. PST

Bag for all in yellow from about 1800.
White braid for all, silver for officers.

von Schwartz30 Jul 2019 1:08 p.m. PST

All bags yellow?

grenadier corporal Supporting Member of TMP30 Jul 2019 9:43 p.m. PST

Kaisergelb (Emperor's yellow), which is a kind of deep yellow.

link

Cavcmdr31 Jul 2019 8:12 a.m. PST

All Yellow except for the Black ;-)

mollinary31 Jul 2019 9:05 a.m. PST

What period are you interested in?

von Schwartz31 Jul 2019 3:45 p.m. PST

Um, I also used to game Napoleonic and I'm pretty sure that's not right. I know the bags are in the facing color for SYW and Napoleonic periods. Besides, the question was, did ALL grenadier bearskin bags have lace as well, or, were some simply left without lace?

grenadier corporal Supporting Member of TMP31 Jul 2019 9:30 p.m. PST

Some units will have kept the facing coloured bags longer than others, but I doubt that you could still find them in 1815.
With opportunity arising I will check the sources when the change from facing Colour to yellow was ordered.
Bags without lace are possible but I've never seen a period picture of such a variant.

Lonkka1Actual01 Aug 2019 12:28 a.m. PST

Some grenadier pics from Vienna's Heeresgeschichtliches Museum

link

von Schwartz01 Aug 2019 12:25 p.m. PST

The one picture of a grenadier shows yellow lace and a dark, probably blue, colored bag.

Every single uniform book I have ever seen, and that covers quite a lot, refers to bags in facing color up to and including the Napoleonic wars era. That, is not in question, my only question was did all grenadier bearskins have lace?!

von Winterfeldt02 Aug 2019 4:44 a.m. PST

did all grenadier caps bags have lace, all ? Let's say 99 % yes.

As for universal yellow to facing colour, this should have been changed during the Napoleonic period or even in 1798 – but contemporary pictures show the facing colour bags well into 1813.

The lace was usually white.

As far as I know those mannequins in the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum are re constructions regarding uniforms and equipment.

von Schwartz02 Aug 2019 3:29 p.m. PST

Yes, that is what I have always been told and what I have always seen. I never saw or heard of any period where they had all the grenadier bags in yellow, yellow lace perhaps, but never all yellow, oops forgot, Erzherzog Karl #2, yellow facings though as well.

grenadier corporal Supporting Member of TMP04 Aug 2019 10:07 p.m. PST

I've consulted what I think are the leading sources, because they both rely on the original Reglements.
Interestingly enough they are different for the date: Karger gives the order to change from facing colour to yellow as part of the regulations of 1798, Teuber/Ottenfeld refer to the work of a commission within the Hofkriegsrath, issuing those orders in 1802.
How long facing coloured bags were to be seen? One of those questions which will elapse a definite answer (as often in uniformology).
Up to now I've never encountered yellow lace for the period from about 1790 to 1815.
BTW: Erzherzog Carl is IR 3; IR 2 is Hiller (or later Zar Alexander). The first mentioned had sky blue facings, the second Emperor yellow.

von Schwartz17 Aug 2019 4:59 p.m. PST

Well, I'm gonna go with some advice given to me by Herkybird a little while back, "They're my figs so I should paint them however I like." Aside from giving them big floppy shoes and a bright red rubber nose I'm gonna go with what I think is correct, within the constraints of historical accuracy.

von Winterfeldt20 Aug 2019 2:26 a.m. PST

why did you ask in the first question?

von Schwartz20 Aug 2019 5:16 p.m. PST

Just striving for accuracy and I had recently received some contradictory information. Trying to verify but everyone seems to have their own personal interpretation. Plus, no one really gave a direct answer to the original question, which boiled down was were all of the grenadier bags laced? I know they were all in the facing color, but some stated lace, others, said nothing.

von Winterfeldt21 Aug 2019 1:07 a.m. PST

but this is seemingly a philosophical exercise for you – as your credo is – they're my figs so I should paint them however I like, in that case – there is no need to ask, just do what you want as red noses and floppy shoes, in case you like it.

you still seemed to be confused about the topic despite clear answers are provided.

von Schwartz21 Aug 2019 9:34 a.m. PST

Actually that's Herkybirds credo, I'm just borrowing it. For me, a good deal of the enjoyment I get from this hobby is doing the research re: armies, OOBs, units involved, and of course uniforms. As I mentioned earlier, I had come across some contradictory information and was just looking for some verification.

Clays Russians21 Aug 2019 1:47 p.m. PST

I'm working on an Austrian army for Maurice as I speak, (2 battalion-ish) units of grenadiers. First and second Siliesian war. I have always been led to believe that cap bags were in a facing color with white lace. At least that is what I remember from Funken's lace wars. I'll do 8 stands of grenadiers to form 2 Btns-or- 2 Regiments. Each stand will have a different bag color to reflect the 8 of the 9 fusiliers Btn/Rgt in my little army.
A purest somewhere is probably have a kniption fit reading this 😬.

von Schwartz21 Aug 2019 5:09 p.m. PST

Sounds OK but have you checked Kronoskaf, Project Seven Years War? I got on there, they were the ones who noted that the bags are indeed in the facing color, at least for the SYW. Then things get interesting, and this is where I got confused. Bags in facing color, most (not all) had lace, in the button color, and some also had a brass front plate of varying sizes. Funcken and Greenwood & Ball had some different interpretations, but they were reeeeal close.

BTW, I've heard about this "Maurice" I assume it is a rule set. What scale battles, tactical, grand tactical, skirmish? My figures (all 15mm) are all based for grand tactical with an average battalion size from 12-18 figures, cavalry 2-6 squadrons per regiment and 2-3 figures per squadron.

Clays Russians22 Aug 2019 12:14 p.m. PST

The scale for Maurice fluctuates, a unit is 4 stands, horse and foot. Cannon are single stands but can be paired into position batteries (recommended). Tactical to low grand tactical, and incorporates a series of card play as well as simple D6 mechanics. It's a combination of a simple wargame and a very simple 18century military role play. Quite unlike anything I have ever seen in any rule set before. (That's not to say one such idea does not exists elsewhere, but I am unaware of one). Armies are small, 12-18 regiments,battalions, cannon sections per armie with period specific nationality bonuses, I.E. cadence, lethal volleys, maison du Roi, etc. It has a lot of period flavor but obviously due to the emphasis on the characteristics of the 18th century (social and military) it may not be for everyone. Games run about 2-3 hours tops, qualifies really as a 2 player game, 4 player tops with 2 players on each side using 2 decks of cards. What it is NOT, is a big battle SYW wargame system like KK, which I used to play a lot…. but never really liked that much. The rules can and do work sufficiently for WSS, GNW, WAS, SYW, and the more open fighting in the AWI. One just has to be selection about "plussing up" your troops with national advantages not available to the time line represented in your ‘game of the week'.
I like them very very much.

Clays Russians22 Aug 2019 12:16 p.m. PST

And I love that card "oh the GOUT, the terrible GOUT"!

Clays Russians22 Aug 2019 12:18 p.m. PST

Wish you all lived closer….

von Schwartz22 Aug 2019 6:00 p.m. PST

As another TMP member put it, I'm living inna wargame desert.

C'est la guerre

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