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"TMP & A Positive, Harmonious Environment" Topic


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Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian11 Aug 2019 9:47 a.m. PST

Those comments are not being made on the TooFatLardies Twitter Feed. Those comments are being made on Twitter.

Yes, replies to your Twitter discussion: link

This is the kind of environment you prefer to TMP?

toofatlardies11 Aug 2019 10:08 a.m. PST

Bill. I posted the following: Just a quick "Thank you" to the people who have emailed me today to show support after my posting on TMP this morning. Its really very kind of you." Over fifty people have contacted me today to express support when, despite the name calling here, I stood up and let people know who the "reader' was and attempted to put the situation into context. It would have been very easy to avoid the abuse that was being levelled at the nameless reader, but I did not do that.

I have also posted twice on Twitter, over which I have no control to ask that they treat you with respect and consideration. You may care to visit the TooFatLardies forum or the TooFatLardies Facebook group over which I do have influence to discover that nobody knows about any of this. Nobody is discussing it at all. Please compare that when yesterday several people suggested that calling me a snowflake was offensive you said it wasn't. Where were you doing what I was doing today; asking people to stop calling names? And then what happens? When people don't get censored for snowflake, I get called a Bleeped text. But still no comment on that.

Best regards

Rich

toofatlardies11 Aug 2019 10:41 a.m. PST

Bill, on a serious note, Wolfhag came up with a suggestion which I think has some merit. One of the big negatives here is the poster who (typically and by way of example) responds to a thread saying "What are your favourite rules by X designer" who then responds with "All of his rules are rubbish, I wouldn't dream of playing them". It's a totally negative comment which adds nothing to the discussion. An alternative would be to give a reasoned argument which, whilst still . negative has some points to debate. So, again for example "I don't like these rules as the movement system seems to me to rely too much on terrain". The former is simply derogatory, the latter is negative whilst also encouraging discussion and debate.

In saying "Maybe a more positive suggestion would be if people took a "pledge" to Bill not to post unless it contributes to the discussion they'll get some type of an icon next to their handle." maybe Wolfhag has hit on a positive attempt to provide an incentive for your readers to behave in a positive manner. Call it what you like, "Polite Contributor logo"; "I'm not a total dick" logo, which can be removed if they behave in a less then positive manner. Essentially a good service award.

As I have stated constantly, my desire here is not to censure criticism, but to ensure that what is being said is positive and encourages debate and discussion rather then argument and friction.

Just a thought.

Rich

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian11 Aug 2019 10:50 a.m. PST

I am simply contrasting the two environments, Rich.

On TMP, your comments were posted, including your name calling, and the worst you were called in response was 'snowflake' (which is legal according to our forum rules). You were also called a rude word which was removed as soon as our staff saw it.

On Twitter, which you quite apparently have no problem with, your posting has resulted in multiple attacks on myself and my business, and you have said nothing there about the tone of the comments or the negativity.

So it seems more likely that your problem with TMP is not any supposed "negativity" – since you tolerate that just fine on Twitter.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian11 Aug 2019 11:11 a.m. PST

Note that since I posted, Rich has asked his followers to show some decorum.

toofatlardies11 Aug 2019 11:17 a.m. PST

Bill. I have already stated, Twitter is an open forum. Nobody moderates it. When people were negative I asked twice for people to how respect for others. Indeed, my exact post was as follows:

Can people please remember that I raised concerns with
@TMP_editor
because I was concerned about negativity there. To deal with him without consideration for good manners and politeness is to commit the same error here. In neither place should that be acceptable.

I attempted to clarify the by stating:

And I should point out that at all times the correspondence between Bill and I was very civil. I explained my concerns and he suggested he put them to his readers. I only added my post this morning to clarify the situation and stop the snowflake name calling. That is all.

I then said:

My point is, I hope, not lost. I want TMP to work and be a great success. I just feel it needs some direction and a move away from conflict. I am not afraid of conflict. I am an ex-London publican and have endured and enjoyed much of it. But its not very welcoming for newcomers

At all points on an unmoderated forum I did all I could to stop name calling. If you read my post above you will see that I am attempting to propose ideas that I think will make TMP more welcoming and less antagonistic.

As I said above, if you go the the TFL forum. If you go to the TFL Facebook Group, the Chain of Command Facebook Group, the Sharp Practice Facebook Group and even the antiquated but still popular TooFatLardies Yahoo Group (where I do moderate them all) you will find no mention of the issues I raised. Why? because I raised them with you as an advertiser speaking to the company who provides space for advertisements. One business to another. What I did not do was attempt to get my customers involved in what was a private discussion where I thought I was raising legitimate concerns.

Now, you decided to post an edited version of my comments to you on TMP. I was surprised by that but not particularly bothered. They were indeed my words. I have never found it hard to defend what I say as in my dealings with any person or organisation I attempt to be respectful and honest and, where I see problems, I describe them in an unvarnished and clear manner.

However, what then happened was a significant number of people sadly decided to prove my point by making comments which really typify the issues I raised with you. You are, of course, correct. Nobody suggested crucifying me at the crossroads. Nobody was baying for blood. But the comments were still typical in that they displayed low-level grumbling negativity and, most importantly, lack of respect for the views of others.

It is difficult not to recognise that their behaviour reflected precisely the issues that I had raised with you. Or at least I found that to be that case. In view of that I recognised that the problem with the quotes that you reproduced from my email to you lacked context as they failed to give the whole story. I decided that I would attempt to add that context. I did that by declaring who I was and why I had made those remarks. I did not do that with any criticism of you, but explained that I accepted that it was your forum and you were entirely free to make whatever decision you wished. I did not post any of this to any other forum. I did not post any link to Twitter or anywhere else.

Of course we once again appear to be at that en passe where I believe that TMP needs to be more of a force for positivity and you apparently disagree. Where I am making suggestions, in conjunction with others, that I feel could encourage people to engage in a more positive and therefore inclusive manner, but you don't seem to be very interested.

I have no real desire to continue this conversation further than to say that I do feel that TMP could be a really positive place but that at present it is falling short of that ideal.

As for Twitter? Well, it can never be anything other than a wall upon which people can scrawl their own message. The message I wrote was to thank people for their support. What others choose to say is their business and I cannot control in any way above attempting to call for moderation where I see anything otherwise. I did precisely that. So clearly I DO have a problem with those less than polite comments. However, you must understand that what some people say badly and even sometimes incoherently can still have a germ of truth to it. When people tell you they have left TMP because of the negativity, you have a choice. You either dismiss them as fools, or you recognise that they are really asking you to make the environment more friendly and positive.

Personally I attempted to engage you directly to raise my concerns . I did not post my thoughts anywhere else. I did not simply leave and bad-mouth you. I attempted, and am still attempting, to help make TMP a better place, Surely all businesses should be striving to improve and provide their customers with a better experience?

Rich

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian11 Aug 2019 11:33 a.m. PST

Bill. I have already stated, Twitter is an open forum. Nobody moderates it.

My point is simply that you haven't chosen to leave Twitter. You use Twitter. It's a far more vitriolic place than anything you can ever find on TMP.

However, you must understand that what some people say badly and even sometimes incoherently can still have a germ of truth to it. When people tell you they have left TMP because of the negativity, you have a choice. You either dismiss them as fools, or you recognise that they are really asking you to make the environment more friendly and positive.

I believe it was Walt Whitman who once said that he did not listen to criticism from people he did not respect. I recognize some of those people as having been kicked off TMP for vile behavior (one of them was abusive toward young gamers!). These people still read TMP daily, and are bitterly frustrated that they can no longer participate here. They will never have anything positive to say about me or TMP.

On the other hand, Rich, you seem unwilling to listen to the TMP community when they are telling you this is not a vitriolic place full of negativity.

toofatlardies11 Aug 2019 12:04 p.m. PST

But I do not advertise on Twitter. I DID advertise here for over ten years. Nearly 12 years I believe. If I advertised on Twitter and had an issue I would, as an advertiser, contact them and tell them my problems. I think, and this is supposition, that the account manager would then discuss any issues that I had and seek to find a resolution. That is the key difference in this situation. Sadly nothing like that happened here. You simply posted a version of my email to you, with bits missing, without full context. I have not "left" Twitter in the same way that I have not "left" TMP. On both fora I shall strive in my connection with others to do all I can to make wargaming an attractive hobby that encourages people to join in and feel part of a community.

If you recall, I suggested to you that I considered your actions in posting the partial text of my email to you to be rather like those of Pontius Pilate, handing the matter to the crowd. You countered with the suggestion that it was in fact an embodiment of Athenian democracy in action. Touche; and a point well made. Indeed, in the interest of full disclosure, I suggested that cutting and pasting my text was possibly less effective than simply asking "should we drop polls that ask negative questions, like 'what is the worst X' because it just leads to arguments." Like all polls, plebiscites or referenda the key to what answers you get is more often than not the question you ask.

I have to say that presented with the question you asked, I too would have thought that whoever the reader was, he must be a bit of an idiot. As many said, if I didn't like the polls don't go there. But that wasn't what this was about. If I don't like x brand of chocolate, I vote with my feet (or teeth) and purchase another brand. But here I was advertising and when you advertise, rather like when you sponsor an athlete, you are giving tactic support to the organisation or individual.

As with many sponsors or advertisers, I came to the conclusion that there were issues with TMP that needed raising. Funnily enough the issues I raised were not about how TFL was promoted, but about how the hobby as a whole was represented. I have said this before, but it is my strongly held belief that we need to be welcoming to newcomers. Frankly, the constant sniping and low grade unpleasantness here was my concern and I raised that issue as a result.

You state above that the TMP community was telling me that this is not vitriolic and not full of negativity. How do you square that with the following remarks:

"Tell the Snowflake that his assessment of TMP is incorrect. However, if said person wants harmony, they should provide each and every member a drink of their choice."

"Guy sounds like a Bleeped text to me. I'm going to look at the gun forums."

"The concerned reader should pull the stick out of his arse. He'll feel a lot better."

Is that the TMP community that is telling me there is no negativity? I only ask because that looks like negativity to me. You may contrast this with everything I have said which has been completely about presenting a positive image of wargaming as a hobby to the world . I do not care about TooFatLardies on this issue. This is far more important as it is about the future of our hobby.

I feel that I should point out that Walt Whitman was a poet. He was not running a forum for wargamers. He could afford to ignore the opinions he disliked. I do hope that even if you can afford to that you choose not to and view what I have said as friendly advice. As stated, If I simply wanted to hurl rocks I'd be long gone now. I don't. I am trying to tell you what I have told every businessman and women on whose board I have sat. Feel free to ignore that but please do not think it is not well meant.

Personal logo StoneMtnMinis Supporting Member of TMP11 Aug 2019 12:22 p.m. PST

twitter is the cesspool of the internet and should be avoided at all costs.

toofatlardies11 Aug 2019 12:40 p.m. PST

StoneMtnMinis . Actually I disagree. It is generally a tremendous source of positivity and encouragement. I am not sure generally, but within the wargame community there is a real sense of cameraderie. Sadly today Bill got a rough reception the like of which I have never seen. At all other times, it has been a marvellous thing to be involved with. I have made friends all over the globe as a result and it is a superb way to keep in touch with people.

For the chap on his own in his spare room it can be a life-line. He is now part of an incredibly vibrant community offering advice and assistance and, most of all, encouragement.

Frankly it's been a life changer for some of my friends who have health issues and the hourly contact with like-minded and positive people has changed things for them for the better.

Personally I think that TMP should be aspiring to that as well.

Rich

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian11 Aug 2019 1:40 p.m. PST

…If I advertised on Twitter and had an issue I would, as an advertiser, contact them and tell them my problems. I think, and this is supposition, that the account manager would then discuss any issues that I had and seek to find a resolution. That is the key difference in this situation. Sadly nothing like that happened here. You simply posted a version of my email to you, with bits missing, without full context…

Rich, I did my best to represent your point of view accurately, dividing the content into two posts to address both of your points. I am sorry that you feel I somehow mispresented you. I am mystified that you did not address this at the time I was discussing the posts with you. I would gladly have corrected the posts in any way you desired to better represent your point of view. I would be willing to post your email in total at this point, to show that I made a good faith attempt to reproduce your viewpoint.

I did at the time, and I still feel at this time, that your comments were without merit, and I hoped that you would feel the same when you saw the response from the TMP community. However, you have not changed your mind.

…I suggested to you that I considered your actions in posting the partial text of my email to you to be rather like those of Pontius Pilate, handing the matter to the crowd…

And, to be honest, I was offended that you would compare the TMP community to that enraged and murderous mob in Jerusalem, but perhaps you had not fully considered the comparison.

…than simply asking "should we drop polls that ask negative questions, like 'what is the worst X' because it just leads to arguments."

And you have been on TMP long enough to know that you could have posted a poll suggestion yourself at any time.

Frankly, the constant sniping and low grade unpleasantness here was my concern…

And our members essentially told you… "What?!" Which is my response. Where is this 'constant sniping and low grade unpleasantness' that you see?

I only ask because that looks like negativity to me.

Or 'robust debate'? Our forum rules recognize that there is a line beyond which behavior is not allowed. With the exception of the person whose post was Bleeped texted, these messages fell within forum rules. They might be coarse, rude, and brash, but they fall within the community standards as they presently exist. I would personally not use such language, but some latitude must exist or forum moderation would become unbearably stifling for our readers.

However, I will say it again: As a member of TMP, you have always had recourse to changing community standards by putting it up to a community vote.

toofatlardies11 Aug 2019 1:53 p.m. PST

Bill

I think we must agree that we are where we are and, possibly are never going to agree on this.

To be specific, comparing you to Pilate, washing his hands and failing to take ownership of the issues was not actually anything to do with comparing the TMP members with the murderous mob in Jerusalem. It was specifically about comparing you to Pilate. When I as a company you were selling your service to came to you with an issue you did not deal with it. You decided instead to put it out for discussion. That is ENTIRELY fine, as it is your site and your rules. However, my comparison still stands and still is a reflection on you; not the members here. That said, I recognise that you are free to completely ignore anything I say and do whatever you want.

I do wonder how many companies will look favourably on any organisation that is not even considering responding to their customers' opinions? But that really ain't my problem.

Cheers

Rich

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian11 Aug 2019 2:00 p.m. PST

…Sadly today Bill got a rough reception the like of which I have never seen…

Twitter is like that. Lots of mean people.

For example, remember Bad Squiddo Games? They were upset when their sales notice was removed from our forum because they were not a TMP advertiser, so accused us on Twitter of being 'anti-woman'? TMP was 100% in the right on that issue, but you never would have known it if you saw the Twitter discussion.

Personally I think that TMP should be aspiring to that as well.

Compared to Twitter, TMP is like heaven.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian11 Aug 2019 2:24 p.m. PST

I do wonder how many companies will look favourably on any organisation that is not even considering responding to their customers' opinions? But that really ain't my problem.

Should TMP overrule the will of the wargaming community for commercial interest? That's essentially what you're asking.

To be specific, comparing you to Pilate, washing his hands and failing to take ownership of the issues was not actually anything to do with comparing the TMP members with the murderous mob in Jerusalem. It was specifically about comparing you to Pilate.

I think you fundamentally misunderstand what TMP is. To the greatest degree possible, our forum rules have always been set by the TMP community. When a change is proposed, shouldn't the TMP community be involved?

Or should I make arbitrary decisions, on the behalf of advertisers, overruling the rules previously set by the TMP community?

And getting back to your original point: You asked me to address a situation which, frankly, I did not think existed. In respect to your point of view, I brought the matter up for community discussion. The TMP community said that the problem you perceive does not exist.

Aethelflaeda was framed11 Aug 2019 3:08 p.m. PST

The name "editor" requires you to take a bit of ownership to the content and the tone of any and all debates. Whether you choose not to edit or to edit doesn't absolve you of the fact that it's your site and your rules as you choose it to be. It's your's alone. If some are upset at the tone you allow, which often appears capricious in that certain trolling behavior gets a by, you can't blame them for not wanting to see you alter it or if you fail, walking away. It's like any game shop, bar, or being a guest at a con or private gathering. The owner/host allows and enforces the tone of the place. Hopefully it's welcoming and not exclusionary. You can't delegate your overall responsibility.

Legion 411 Aug 2019 3:19 p.m. PST

Twitter is like that. Lots of mean people.

You know what I'd say to those types, Bill !?

picture

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian11 Aug 2019 3:28 p.m. PST

You can't delegate your overall responsibility.

Being responsive to our community makes us successful.

Legion 412 Aug 2019 8:03 a.m. PST

Well I know that Bill has gotten a lot of flak from "toxic posters". Yes they are "vitriolic and insulting" at the least. Not taking sides … I'm only stating a fact. I've seen it many times. As well as I have been attacked by some of these types. Hiding behind the cover of the net.

So …

picture

*Note: I'm not threatening anyone only posting a funny cartoon … As the behavior of these types is silly, juvenile, immature, etc. And besides I like the Minions ! evil grin

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP12 Aug 2019 1:54 p.m. PST

Ralph, you've lost me. Are the Minions supposed to represent TMPers or anti-TMPers?

wmyers12 Aug 2019 2:49 p.m. PST

I have found the TMP forums to a very good place – people are generally far more respectful on here than many a place on the internet (just lower yourself and check out "frothers unite" if you want to see one of the worst).

Most users on here seem to be more mature, therefore more polite.

There are some boards that seem to be the most likely for "attacks" (try posting, just for fun, how you do not believe in the global warming agenda in "science" and see the vitriol spew forth from those who take it as a personal attack).

However, overall this site is awesome! Period.

Bill does an excellent job and devotes a lot of his time to this.

If we are adults, I think we should be able to act like such.

Sadly, we are living in a world that continuously and constantly is telling us we need to get offended at every little tiny thing and we should respond to such in a far worse manner than was ever intended or done to us. Sadly, it is affecting how we act, think, behave. Not much of it is in a way that helps us to be courteous, respectful, mature, considerate or any number of other truly positive traits.

Legion 412 Aug 2019 3:58 p.m. PST

(just lower yourself and check out "frothers unite" if you want to see one of the worst).
Many who Bill bounced ended up there. They continue there childish, rude ways AFAIK.

be courteous, respectful, mature, considerate or any number of other truly positive traits.
Amen to that !

Red Jacket Supporting Member of TMP12 Aug 2019 4:16 p.m. PST

TMP is just fine the way it is. People need to return to a place where they can accept that there are all types of people with different ways to talk/express themselves. If you have a problem with someone or some comment, stop reading or accept that there are differences of opinion. I have been on this site for a long time and see no difference in the tone of the site. Stop trying to create a problem where one does not exist. It is not Bill's responsibility to react if the comments do not violate the site's rules.

Legion 413 Aug 2019 8:07 a.m. PST

Well developed Adults should agree to disagree and move on. Not attack someone who is different and/or has a different POV/opinion then you.

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP13 Aug 2019 1:10 p.m. PST

In theory, Ralph. But if their viewpoint is abhorrent, say racists or an advocate of putting pineapple on pizza, then I think all right thinking people should oppose such beliefs.
The world is a little more complex than "live and let live".

Personal logo 20thmaine Supporting Member of TMP14 Aug 2019 5:58 a.m. PST

Having now understood that this actually arose from an Advertiser who was not pleased about Negatively Proposed Polls about his products I'd have to say that I can see where he's coming from and that sadly that kind of thing is nothing new :

TMP link

Whilst, like most people, I am inconsistent and probably don't get too upset when the target is a global corporation (you know who I'm thinking of), I do think that generally such polls are both unwise and unfair.

[If we dig hard enough we'll probably find that I'm as guilty as anyone, but like I say I don't claim to be consistent.]

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian14 Aug 2019 11:38 a.m. PST

…this actually arose from an Advertiser who was not pleased about Negatively Proposed Polls about his products…

Actually, I don't believe any of his products were nominated in that poll. Were they?

I believe you might be confusing this with the topic where someone said he didn't care for TooFatLardies-style rulesets.

DJCoaltrain15 Aug 2019 11:31 a.m. PST

"TMP has been called "rancid" and "lurching toward the edge." Seems a lot more vitriolic than TMP has ever been!"

Nearly twenty years now and TMP is still mere nano-meters from the edge. Vitriol is always present when playing with chidren's toys. My Grandson is 7. I listen to him and his friends when they play games. Sadly, the conversaqtions sound a lot like they do on TMP when the conversational devolution begins. "You're a poopyhead!" No, you're a poopyhead." You're the biggest poopyhead in the world." NO, I'm not. You are." And so it goes. The major difference between their arguments and ours is that they will be back playing together in 15 minutes. Sometimes a short attention span helps keep the peace long term. Best advice I got during my officiating career was "Have Rhino hide, not Rabbit ears." Jus sayin. firetruck

DJCoaltrain15 Aug 2019 11:34 a.m. PST

OOPS, I forgot. For the record, I like "Too Fat Lardies" products.

Personal logo 20thmaine Supporting Member of TMP15 Aug 2019 2:10 p.m. PST

Good to see that poopyhead passes the bleep-omatic

That's information that might come in handy at some time evil grin

Wolfhag Supporting Member of TMP19 Aug 2019 11:58 a.m. PST

I was at an international war game conference last week. There were a few officers from the British Army that put on simulations for their military and intel community. I brought up Chain of Command and they spoke very highly of it and were familiar with the game.

Wolfhag

dapeters20 Aug 2019 9:26 a.m. PST

Maybe that it we should have an official insult the only one that you can not get in trouble for then their no need to list band words.

Legion 420 Aug 2019 3:11 p.m. PST

DJCoaltrain – Have not seen you on TMP in a long time ! Nice to see some of us old timers are still around! old fart

von Schwartz20 Aug 2019 6:38 p.m. PST

@ Sgt Slag
It's called maturity. "Maturity", is a splendid thing. Too bad colleges do not teach it anymore. Cheers!

Unfortunately it's not taught anywhere anymore, it supposed to be taught at home, sadly too many parents have given up teaching anything like that. If fact many of todays parents were never taught that themselves!

Wolfhag Supporting Member of TMP20 Aug 2019 8:34 p.m. PST

von Schwartz,
A sense of humor helps too. Imagine how many times us former military have been called names and "offended". I'm immune and try to keep it mature. According to my wife, I'm still a WIP. Especially when my son visits and we start drinking.

Wolfhag

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian20 Aug 2019 8:43 p.m. PST

For the record, I like "Too Fat Lardies" products.

I've still got my TooFatLardies T-shirt. grin

Clays Russians22 Aug 2019 7:33 p.m. PST

I think the concept of speech censorship with veterans (regardless of nationality) is akin to 9 inch spiders at a bridal shower. There in May lie a little of the – "unnecessary" drama

Legion 423 Aug 2019 7:09 a.m. PST

thumbs up

DJCoaltrain23 Aug 2019 3:23 p.m. PST

Legion4 – I took a year+ long vacation from TMP. In that year some TMP buddies passed away. That saddened me tremendously. So I visit a couple times a week now. I only weigh-in with comments when I think I can make a contribution, or correct a misconception. The great issues are no longer discussed with civil passion. The petty issues are still here in abundance, but the level of humor is greatly decreased. Of course that's just a reflection of the society around the world. Still, product announcements, the marketplace, and a couple other sections hold my attention.

von Schwartz23 Aug 2019 6:07 p.m. PST

Wolfhag
Sorry to be so dense but what is a WIP?

Mad Guru Supporting Member of TMP23 Aug 2019 10:15 p.m. PST

WIP = "Work In Progress"

95th Division Supporting Member of TMP24 Aug 2019 6:59 a.m. PST

DJCoaltrain – excellent post.

Legion 424 Aug 2019 7:15 a.m. PST

Glad to see you are back DJ. Very sorry to hear about your TMP buddies. Yes, I remember some here have passed sadly.


The great issues are no longer discussed with civil passion. The petty issues are still here in abundance, but the level of humor is greatly decreased. Of course that's just a reflection of the society around the world.
Spot on ! And very, very true … thumbs up

von Schwartz24 Aug 2019 4:10 p.m. PST

Thank you guru

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