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"PSC - more 1/72nd kits back in stock" Topic


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3,375 hits since 18 Apr 2019
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CATMAN2 Sponsoring Member of TMP18 Apr 2019 3:56 a.m. PST

1/72nd US Infantry, SU76, Cromwell, Panzer IV, SdKfz 250 Alte, SdKfz 231 8 Rad all back in stock, plus 15mm Late War Panzer Army Box
Happy Easter everyone!

deephorse18 Apr 2019 6:06 a.m. PST

Thanks, but none of the stuff I actually want. Are S-Model kits not being produced any longer, or are you just not importing them? Perhaps you could answer that for me CATMAN?

Nick B18 Apr 2019 10:14 a.m. PST

Whats going on with Battle Group?

Are you seeking to divest yourself of them?

Will you be publishing the new Pacific book or NORTHAG?

Will you be restocking out of print books?

Personal logo 28mm Fanatik Supporting Member of TMP18 Apr 2019 3:19 p.m. PST

This is why I've stayed away from PSC and Battlegroup. The stocks are not available like those from other companies such as Warlord's Bolt Action and Battlefront's FOW. Once the initial print or production runs are sold out, good luck trying to get them if you're late to the party. And people wonder why 28mm is the new 1/72.

cliff091618 Apr 2019 6:32 p.m. PST

PSC has fallen off track. They dropped the ball when they purchased Armies Army line of modern miniatures, seems Battle Group is headed in that direction also.

forrester18 Apr 2019 11:32 p.m. PST

I like PSC kits, but will tend to try E-Bay where old stock may still be available from secondary sources.
Producing and keeping up stock levels on your own range of plastic kits cannot be cheap, but the basics need to be reliably available otherwise there's always the worry you can't expand/finish your units. If you can't afford to buy your whole project in one go it could be frustrating.

Again with the rules system, lots of supplements but for a time the basic rules were difficult to get hold of, though they have been reissued as separate from the original Kursk book.

Being positive there are interesting new things in the pipeline. I'm hoping for a 1/72 Tiger with zimmerit, even though I don't NEED any. And the Sherman M4A2 will be good for British and Canadian independant armoured brigades, though PSC will need to make sure the Firefly is also in stock, to go with them.

Marc the plastics fan19 Apr 2019 12:08 a.m. PST

I hope this is just a blip, but the current impression is that the effort is being put into board games. Maybe that is where they need to go to make money, but for us 1/72 BG fans, it is a poor show

Texas Jack19 Apr 2019 2:51 a.m. PST

And people wonder why 28mm is the new 1/72.

And I wonder how you can keep make such sweeping statements without the slightest evidence to back it up.
I know you like 28mm, but gee whiz, not everyone does and that is not a weakness of the hobby but a strength. I much prefer freedom of choice to freedom from choice.

Getting back on topic, PSC has lost me as a customer simply because they never have what I want to buy. I just checked my account there and I was surprised to see I had only two orders in my history. One was for S-Modelīs A13 cruisers, which was like catching lightning in a bottle, and the other was for S-Modelīs MVIbs. BUT, the second order was canceled by PSC because they had mistakenly listed them as in stock.
The lack of stock is also a problem with their own products, so I just gave up and never go there anymore.

Personal logo 28mm Fanatik Supporting Member of TMP19 Apr 2019 8:12 a.m. PST

@Texas Jack

I have nothing against 1/72 and almost got into it big time when Battlegroup came out. 1/72 (20mm) still has the most varieties in both plastic and metal, but PSC was the first company that actually tried to make 1/72 into a mainstream wargaming scale with the Battlegroup rule system and its own extensive line of 1/72 WWII infantry sets and tanks. Everybody at the time rejoiced that 1/72 had its own champion in PSC to match Battlefront for 15mm and Warlord for 28mm.

But it turned out that PSC wasn't serious because it failed to keep up stock levels of its 1/72 offerings and allowed Battlegroup to wither on the vine by not reprinting sold-out books. My FLGS used to carry a nice selection of 1/72 PSC products, but now what little they have from the company are all in 15mm. What a disappointment. PSC will never be more than a bit player in the wargaming industry unless it changes its business practices. No wonder 28mm and 15mm dominate WWII game clubs. BF and Warlord books and models never run out.

cliff0916 wrote:

They dropped the ball when they purchased Armies Army line of modern miniatures

I agree. They thought expanding into 15mm Cold War Gone Hot was a good idea, but the AA products are (surprise!) unavailable. Now Keith Armstrong of AA has hinted that another company called Army Bits might get his line back from PSC: TMP link

And what did PSC do to expand its 15mm CW line? They released a whopping 3 box sets: T-55's, M60's and Leopard 1's.

PSC would be much better off concentrating solely on 1/72 and ditching all other scales. You don't see Battlefront releasing anything other than 15mm or Warlord competing with itself by releasing 15mm or 20mm WWII figures.

Sorry CATMAN2, but looks like your "good news" OP has turned into a scathing indictment of PSC.

Texas Jack19 Apr 2019 8:59 a.m. PST

@28mm Fanatik

I certainly agree with you on PSC shooting themselves in the foot regarding stock, but quite often when a topic is related to something non-28mm, you chime in and say how said scale, usually 2Omm, is inferior to 28mm and how people are dropping said scale in favor of your clearly favorite 28s.
As for your comment that 15mm and 28mm dominate clubs, where do you get that information? It certainly isnīt true where I am. Is there a club scale database somewhere that registers this information? I think itīs great you have found your One True Scale, but these blanket statements appear to be scalism to me, and I certainly hope you are not a scalist. :D
I say gamers should have the opportunity to game no matter what their scale and rule set persuasion may be.

As for PSC, there is a silver lining for me, as their lack of product has led me to discover several Continental sources for S-Models that actually have models in stock. Yay.

Personal logo 28mm Fanatik Supporting Member of TMP19 Apr 2019 10:03 a.m. PST

I'm hardly a scalist I assure you. I may actually have to change my handle to "15mm Fanatik" as my 15mm collection has grown while my 28mm acquisitions have stagnated.

But in my neck of the woods in SoCal, 1/72 just isn't popular in wargaming. Otherwise I would have a huge collection of this scale, as I mentioned above I nearly did had PSC been serious with Battlegroup. If 1/72 is popular in Texas, more power to it.

Texas Jack19 Apr 2019 10:54 a.m. PST

When you qualify it like that then itīs loads less offensive than the way you stated it before. And no matter what the scale, I think we can both agree that we are quite disappointed in PSC. :)

Personal logo 28mm Fanatik Supporting Member of TMP19 Apr 2019 12:19 p.m. PST

What's disappointing is that PSC had a great opportunity to elevate 1/72 scale into the mainstream miniature gaming limelight and make it a true equal to 15mm and 28mm through Battlegroup and greater exposure/availability of its offerings via both its online store and traditional brick-and-mortar FLGS's just like what BF and Warlord have been doing, but decided to squander this golden opportunity.

Let's face it. Most newbie gamers interested in WWII would likely play FOW or BA because these products are what's on shelf spaces and readily available in online stores. Doing the work to track down and buy from the myriad 1/72 manufacturers is too much hassle for them.

deephorse19 Apr 2019 3:31 p.m. PST

As for PSC, there is a silver lining for me, as their lack of product has led me to discover several Continental sources for S-Models that actually have models in stock.

I'd love to know who they are if you're willing to share?

GReg BRad20 Apr 2019 1:08 a.m. PST

I agree PSC started off with a bang in all three scales soon they dropped 28mm figures wise choice can't compete with Warlord Games. Continued strong with their 15mm and 20mm ranges in plastic. 15mm even broke into the Battlefront market. Their plastic 20 mm range then collapsed after their US infantry blunder and then became neglected. Soon the 20mm plastic figures range stopped and was replaced by metal with limited success. PSC selling metal should it not be MSC? The 20mm plastic range then only continued forward with vehicles. I really thought they would become the new Warlord in 20mm but their vision failed them. Looking at their 20mm range again their Germans, Russians and US the few sets you could buy a infantry box and support weapons box and you were good to go with rulesets like Battlegroup, Bolt Action and Chain of Command nothing else needed. Yes you can do it with the 15mm too but the 20mm variety has now ceased.

As for their Battlegroup partnership I can only say the authors dropped the ball. Great set of rules but did not penetrate the market as I think they had hoped. When books sold out there was no reprint and only then became available in PDF. Some never sold out so will never be available in PDF. Due to postage in many countries these books will never reach those countries and PDF's would have been the only option, but due to the authors stubbornness those markets were not reached. Golden opportunity missed.

And then the last issue the board and card games that PSC started selling and investing in. I have nothing against diversity but what is your core business "plastic soldier company" so direct the majority of time and staff in that direction. But to many irons in the fire and loss of sight of you core identity leads to stock shortages and client dissatisfaction in the products produced. Clients start looking elsewhere.

PSC it is time to re-evaluate your vision, market and product. Continue as a vendor for Rubicon, S-Models and such as this is your diversity, but take your identity as PSC serious and your product should be you flagship not the other companies products. Make your product more suitable for the rulesets out their for example a Bolt Ation player buy this Arm box and a Chain of Command player buy this box and a Battlegroup player this army box and you are set to go with suggestions for supplementing units also from your ranges on a info sheet in the army box ala Warlord. If it works do it too. Another example is Chain of Commands Pint Sized campaigns, if you put out a army box for each army of each book a player will be stopping at your site to pick it up after buying the Pint size campaign. But this is work on your part to research other rulesets to know what is required\wanted in these armies. I'm convinced you can still be a leading Brand player in the 15mm and 20mm plastic ranges, but how badly do you want it? or are you happy just being a vendor.

Texas Jack20 Apr 2019 1:49 a.m. PST

@deephorse

I may regret this, but here are some shops (two in Czech, one in Poland) where I regularly get S-Models. Right now it looks like the really good stuff is out of stock, but in my experience all three shops have re-stocked in the past. My last purchase was some French (not the German) S-35s, and I love them! Customer service is fine from all three, but Plastic Planet sends stuff out without letting you know itīs on the way.

link

link


link

And one I forgot is Tracks and Troops. They usually order stuff when you order it, so the wait can be quite lengthy. I only use them if they advertise they have something in stock or if Iīm desperate enough to wait a couple of months or more (A13s perhaps?). Communication with them is best through Facebook, where they are quite active.
link

deephorse20 Apr 2019 4:07 a.m. PST

Thanks Jack. I've tried Tracks and Troops before, a long time ago. IIRC they couldn't get what I ordered and so it got cancelled. I'll see if the others have what I'm looking for. I get the impression that no-one is importing S-Model kits any more. Any idea as to why?

Texas Jack20 Apr 2019 4:14 a.m. PST

I have no idea if the problem is on S-Modelīs end or retailers, but it seems silly either way, as the models and prices are both great, so there should be some profit in there somewhere.

With Tracks and Troops I ordered some OOP Zvezda Romans from them as well as S-Models, and in both cases it took quite a while to get to me despite both of us being in the Czech Republic.

I recently bought some Pz-38(t) from Pegasus and was quite pleased with them. Same format with two per box, and really nicely engineered. Only drawback was no decals, but the parts box solved that.

Good luck on your quest!

LeonAdler Sponsoring Member of TMP20 Apr 2019 6:46 a.m. PST

From what I understand its production issues at the S Model end of the chain so be easy on the various retailers/importers.
BA and FOW are popular because they are simplistic systems requiring little effort and even less knowledge. They have to be that way to try and reach the biggest market possible, its the design of the business plan.
As for 28mm quite why youd volunteer to increase the cost and the footprint of your gaming units( specially in a period where ranged fire is critical) I've no idea. Then theres the quality issue, with some honourable exceptions ( Paul Hicks/Empress and the Perry's come to mind immediately)most 28mm stuff is grim ( Orcs in camo)Then again there are now 2 generations of gamers brought up on the GW scale/look of things so they think ( I think) thats if its not 28mm its not a proper figure.
L

deephorse20 Apr 2019 7:39 a.m. PST

Being a dyed-in-the-wool 20mm WWII gamer I somewhat agree with you Leon. That said I do have a small 28mm collection which I find is good for what I call skirmish level actions. But if I want battalions on the table then it has to be 20mm. IIRC 15mm wasn't an option when I started my collecting in around 1973. If I was starting now I would probably choose 15mm, but FOW would not be my rules of choice.

If you're being critical of some manufacturer's 28mm offerings don't overlook some of the fairly poor 20mm ranges that are out there. I am also surprised at the notion being pushed by some that 1/72 or 20mm needed to be elevated into the gaming limelight, that the evidence for this need is what was seen at their local FLGS, and that PSC failed in their mission to achieve this. PSC may have failed to support Battlegroup effectively, but 1/72 gaming was not going to collapse because of it.

There are other parts of the world, one being mine, where 1/72 is well represented in shops, clubs and shows, and has been for as long as I can remember. It didn't need anyone to shine a spotlight on it because it was already at the front of everyone's mind.

The people playing it didn't need spoonfeeding their history by way of platoon or company packs. They got satisfaction from picking their own rules to play, and from researching their own forces. Yes, FOW and Bolt Action cater to an audience, but don't go away thinking that that is the only audience that exists.

LeonAdler Sponsoring Member of TMP20 Apr 2019 11:16 a.m. PST

Indeed Deephorse you make the point well. Different scales for different games and different periods. I do a lot of Medieval skirmish games in 25mm, larger engagements in 15mm and for a Crecy refight its 10mm stuff. Its the so and so is THE scale type of mindset that I dont understand. It just shows a lack of imagination. The idea that you would fix to a scale regardless of whether its the best for what your trying to achieve and despite the quality. The stuff people will buy is a constant source of of bafflement.
Ive seen Napoleonic refights at conventions, table edge to table edge of 28's with 6 figure batts and then being told its a refight of Dresden.
Im sorry but a 6 fig unit does not look like anything like a Napoleonic batt and there needs to be room to manoeuvre and to me to play right things need to look at least passably like a version of reality.
One of the reasons FOW baffles me is the 'parking lot' formations…………what? How is that anything to do with armoured tactics? I then hear people say 'oh we do that because it works rerally well in the rules. Well in that case the rules are…………….its the lack of critical thinking that baffles me, then again it has done so for years.
Nowt wrong with 'beer and pretzels' games its just the pretence that its something else that agitates lol.
And on the point of Battlegroup the problem is economics from what I understand ( I share the same printer contacts). To produce a reprint economically you need a run of at least 1500 copies. That a lot of books and of course once the intitial release is done sales are going to be less and slower than the first rush of excitement sales. So lot of capital and wharehouse space tied up and of course running the risk that 'fashion' moves on to a different set of rules.
I dont know the rules at all but as I understand it theres PDF versions available? The ones I use went out of print in about 1999!
I just wish PSC would explain things better so people had a better perspective on things.
I am now going to shut up ( sighs of relief all round :ed)
L

PiersBrand20 Apr 2019 11:24 a.m. PST

Well without books… how do new players get involved?

As for PDF… not everyone wants them. And as for economics… that's surely an issue of fund management? Sales of books could have provided funds to reprint. I don't know… but that seems logical if you want to game to continue and grow… otherwise… what's the point?

As for the rest… I'm not even going to comment. After spending six years building the Battlegroup community up online, I'm truly sad at how things seem to be going.

The Young Guard20 Apr 2019 12:40 p.m. PST

It's a real shame about PSC, and in particular the battlegroup rules. Always very enjoyable.

Although some of the boardgames they have produced have been good I do wonder if it is the kickstarters than keep the company going and that can only really go one way.

Texas Jack20 Apr 2019 1:45 p.m. PST

It looks like they are trying to mirror Warlord, which is a pity as that is not where their strength lies. Itīs rarely a good thing when companies lose sight of their core products.

Personal logo 28mm Fanatik Supporting Member of TMP20 Apr 2019 7:27 p.m. PST

Warlord Games' core flagship product is Bolt Action. Everything else is subsidiary. PSC needs to establish its main bread-and-butter before branching out and expanding into other areas.

It isn't too late. PSC should go back and concentrate on 1/72 WWII plastics and be the best that it can be, and that means not making basic mistakes like it did with the straps on US infantry.

deephorse21 Apr 2019 3:05 a.m. PST

I bought into The Great War Kickstarter, and all its expansions, and am bery glad that I did. It's a fun game. But I primarily use PSC as a source of 1/72 kits. Their own models afe excellent and robust wargaming kits, and I hope they keep expanding the range. I just wish that CATMAN would come back here and explain a few things to us. Surely he must pop back to take a look at how a thread he started is progressing?

The Young Guard21 Apr 2019 7:40 a.m. PST

I still think the 15mm kit is good and it's between £5.00 GBP to £10.00 GBP cheaper than battlefront.


Not only that but I would struggle to get a decent wargame model of the Sherman M4A2 in 1/72 (there are some lovely kits but they are not little hands proof). You can never have enough different Sherman types!

Marc the plastics fan21 Apr 2019 12:08 p.m. PST

I have been a big fan of 1/72 for too long – longer than I care to remember. Then I found BattleGroup and that has become my go to rules. PSC is failing its market, pure and simple. They were a breath of fresh air, but I have heard a lot of stories of "mismanagement" (like sending an email out with their costs on, rather than retail price etc)

Here's hoping

CATMAN2 Sponsoring Member of TMP23 Apr 2019 3:19 a.m. PST

Wow – not really the response I was expecting but constructive criticism is always welcome and I have always prided myself on listening to people

not sure where to start so I will just make comments in no particular order.

Battlegroup all the way back was always owned 50% by Warwick, the author and 50% by me, Will at PSC. In fact it was my idea to re-create Kampfgruppe Normandie and I went to Warwick. Warwick always insisted on hardback books (I did manage to get a few smaller, later books in softback) – hardback books are expensive to produce and very expensive to ship. They also take up a lot of warehouse space. This makes them commercially difficult to reprint. There are general economic principles of book publishing that we have to adhere to. All Battlegroup books are available in print or pdf. As I have said in posts elsewhere, Warwick and I are committed to Battlegroup and are discussing plans on how best to take Battlegroup forward with the 6-8 future books/supplements we have planned (Northag and Pacific next 2 cabs off the rank). We are also looking at viable ways to bring books back into print – maybe through a pre-order or crowdfunding route like GMT's 500 or Kickstarter.

Plastic kit production also has economic/commercial principles in terms of stock holding, production capacity, supply chain management etc. Plastic kits need volume to be commercially viable. They are very expensive to design and tool

Anyone spotted that the next 5 PSC new releases are all 1/72nd scale? But for 15mm lovers that does not mean we are giving up on 15mm!! These are all kits that already have a 15mm version. We have other 15mm kits planned for the future

S Model supply is erratic to say the least. I put in a big restock order 2 months ago. Despite chasing – nothing yet

Team Yankee and 15mm Cold War has cooled in popularity which is one reason why PSC has sold the Armies Army range onto Scotia Grendel (I am sure they will make announcements soon). We also just did not have the resources here to run a metal and resin range and do Armies Army justice. This also explains why we have not extended the 15mm Cold War plastic offerings. Also a lot of kits have already been done by Battlefront. It would be a little silly to bring out a plastic Chieftain now

Yes, we are building a boardgames side of the business – hence the PSC Games sub brand. But plastic kits and Battlegroup are the core of The Plastic Soldier Company and will continue to rumble on.

Kungfucius23 Apr 2019 9:11 a.m. PST

I placed more than 20 orders since 2012 so I sure like PSC 1/72 kits. Their service is also fast and reliable. Lack of stock is unexpected news for me, I hope this is not a sign of things slowing down or worse (at least for this side of their business). PSC kits are a good compromise for those who don't build models just for the display case yet want their wargame models to look nice on the table. I am no rivet counter and I don't mind the occasional mistake. In their Coming Soon section I see nine 1/72 kits to be released, I hope PSC will stuck to the plan. Catman2 I will support your efforts but please tell me if I can hope for more WW2 figures.

deephorse23 Apr 2019 9:47 a.m. PST

Many thanks for the update CATMAN. Good to have solid information from the horse's mouth!

I don't particularly care about Battlegroup because, despite owning all the books, I don't, and probably never will, play it. Looking forward to all the new 1/72 releases, and fingers crossed that S-Model pull theirs out and send you some stuff.

The Young Guard23 Apr 2019 10:17 a.m. PST

Yeah thanks Catman for the update. Very helpful to know.

Personal logo 28mm Fanatik Supporting Member of TMP24 Apr 2019 9:16 a.m. PST

I don't particularly care about Battlegroup because, despite owning all the books, I don't, and probably never will, play it.

Why? Is it because you don't particularly like the rules, or is it because you can't find other people to play with, a problem you wouldn't have with BA and FOW.

Had PSC given Battlegroup the same level of market exposure and saturation that BF had given FOW and Warlord had for BA, it would be a lot more popular than it is now. And it would have its own dedicated board here on TMP just like FOW and BA.

If it's "business as usual" for Battlegroup then it will continue to languish well behind BA, FOW and even CoC. From what I've seen of the BG books, it is solid set of rules and a great product with high production value equal to BA and FOW. It deserves better than this half-hearted, fits-and-starts marketing approach. PSC shouldn't passively reprint books to meet demand; it should actively print more than enough books to stock shelves in gaming stores to create and meet future demand, even if they don't sell out to begin with. This had worked wonders for Battlefront and Warlord.

Time to give BA and FOW a run for their money in the WWII miniature gaming market, PSC. The question is: "Are you up to the task?"

PiersBrand24 Apr 2019 11:01 a.m. PST

Why does a game have to sell loads to be good?

So the only judge of a game is if it sells as much as BA or FoW?

Most of the games I play are niche and small independent games. I've never bought a game because others do. I tend to base it on if the game plays well, is fun and well produced.

Honda may sell loads of cars, but I'd still rather own a Ferrari..

Personal logo 28mm Fanatik Supporting Member of TMP24 Apr 2019 11:24 a.m. PST

I never equated "good" with "selling loads" (i.e. popular), Piers, but it's hard to find opponents when no one else in your area is playing BG because they're all playing more popular and better marketed (not beter) games like BA or FOW.

All I'm saying is that it would be nice if a great game like BG has the same market presence and saturation as FOW and BA so that more people would be exposed to it. Wouldn't you agree? Because I don't think it's even played as much as CoC right now.

Unless you're satisfied with BG being a niche game forever with a limited player base, of course.

deephorse24 Apr 2019 2:13 p.m. PST

Why? Is it because you can't find other people to play with, a problem you wouldn't have with BA and FOW.

Yet another sweeping statement. You don't know where I live, what rules I like to play to or even if my gaming friends and I are remotely interested in using BA or FoW (which we're not, by the way).

I have the impression that our ‘gaming worlds' are entirely different. Market presence and saturation mean nothing to me and my friends. We examine different rules and pick the one(s) that appeal to us the most. They could well be ones that few people are aware of if compared to BA etc. But we like to do our own thing and not be influenced by the masses.

PiersBrand24 Apr 2019 4:36 p.m. PST

28mm Fanatik

Yes… I'm happy with BG being a niche game. I dont have any trouble finding opponents. Guess it depends on your personal viewpoint… and that's if it's even a niche. I think something like 10k rulebooks have been sold so far. Plus the theatre books of course on top of that…

But hey… not up to me. I'd just be happy to see the books back in print. The game has grown fine in the last few years with no big GW style extravaganza… may be that niche feel is what is players like? Again… I dunno. But I don't get the sense people who play feel much is needed except so reprints.

I'm not sure it's even a game that you push and market the same way as BA or FoW which are written to sell miniature lines. BG wasn't. It's not a competition set of rules like the other two.

donlowry24 Apr 2019 4:57 p.m. PST

but PSC was the first company that actually tried to make 1/72 into a mainstream wargaming scale

Don't know where you got that idea. I was playing WW2 in 20mm long before there were any 28mm WW2 models, or 15mm either!

PiersBrand24 Apr 2019 5:04 p.m. PST

What he said.

Texas Jack24 Apr 2019 9:43 p.m. PST

I read that statement with a grain of salt (and a glass of whiskey), and yeah, 1/72 IS mainstream wargaming.

Iīm happy PSC responded and hopefully they will address these issues here. I love the models, it would just be nice to be able to purchase some.

As for BA and their ilk, not for me, but I imagine everyone plays what they want, and thatīs quite okay. I have BG (in pdf form of course), and am looking forward to giving them a try.

TacticalPainter0125 Apr 2019 3:38 a.m. PST

but PSC was the first company that actually tried to make 1/72 into a mainstream wargaming scale

As has been pointed out, no they were not, however it was really refreshing to see PSC attempt to bring out a comprehensive game-friendly range in this scale and to fill some gaps in that market. But don't forget that Armourfast, Italeri and Pegasus have had ranges of specific wargame models in 1/72 for some time. That's not to count all the 1/72 kit manufacturers that cater to modellers but provide a huge source of models used by gamers.

Then again, how would WW2 miniatures gaming have ever existed if it wasn't for Airfix?

Fred Cartwright25 Apr 2019 4:16 a.m. PST

I was playing WW2 in 20mm long before there were any 28mm WW2 models, or 15mm either!

Which version of 20mm was that? 1/87, 1/76 or 1/72? A lot of the early gamers used 1/87, 1/72 is a relative new comer to the market compared to 1/87 and 1/76. Also you must be really old if you started before any 15mm WW2 as the Quality Castings Range was around for many years before FOW arrived as was Denzil Skinners 1/100 range and the Roskopf plastics.

Marc at work25 Apr 2019 4:36 a.m. PST

I was definitely playing WW2 using Airfix 20mm and Charles Grant Battle rules before Peter Laing launched his innovative 15mm range. Is that far enough back?

What PSC did was, in my eyes, try to provide an integrated approach. they published rules that favoured (or at least suggested) 1/72. Then they made available Kwik Build tanks, and they produced infantry and support weapons, enabling gamers to make up forces that suit the BG books.

As an avid soft plastic fan, I can definitely say the release of the PSC ranges of figures has helped with organisation. Soft plastic sets have, traditionally, been short of support weapons and command figures (the Airfix sets (v2) lacked heavy MGs and mortars (both 2" and 3"), let alone AT rifles. SO I do find they were a driver for change, to promote the period further.

Like anything in this hobby, it is hard to track the movers and shakers. I do know that AB has been producing some more lovely 20mm goodies "lately", as has Leon, along with the small Zvzeda sets which have provided a wide range of "extras" (like stretcher parties – ideal for BG).

The plastic kit companies have been slow to embrace the wargame market. Armourfast were probably the market leaders in kwik builds, and Italeri followed suit. But PSC seemed to be the most active, especially in 20mm 1/72.

So I remain hopeful they will continue to push this period and scale. It would be fantastic to see PSC get better store coverage – when I visit the few remaining FLGS, I see FoW and BA kits on sale, but very rarely PSC. So that must have an impact on take-up, surely.

Fred Cartwright25 Apr 2019 4:42 a.m. PST

I was definitely playing WW2 using Airfix 20mm and Charles Grant Battle rules before Peter Laing launched his innovative 15mm range. Is that far enough back?

That is pretty far back! Peter Laing started early 70's IIRC. From what I remember Quality Castings predates Peter Laing, but they weren't well known until 15mm WW2 took off in the 90's.

LeonAdler Sponsoring Member of TMP25 Apr 2019 5:05 a.m. PST

Oh nostalgia! lol
Do find it odd when people dont know the origins of the hobby, I suspect many out there think it started with GW…….certainly GW do lol
I remember the days when GW was a little shop in Hammersmith that I went to to get the new Traveller installment and remember having some of the Frank Hincliffe 15mm WW2 stuff.
Then again most gamers have no idea who or what I am even though Ive been around the business for some 50 years.
And as for 'popular' I'd rather be niche and good than widespread and ………..well less good lol
If your going to be a mega corp you have to head for the lowest common denomiter, its just a simple matter of market ecomonmics. Its not good or bad its just a particular approach. When it gets iffy is when that market power is used to drive other business's out of the market. Amazon would be a good example.
L

Fred Cartwright25 Apr 2019 5:41 a.m. PST

I remember the days when GW was a little shop in Hammersmith that I went to to get the new Traveller installment and remember having some of the Frank Hincliffe 15mm WW2 stuff.

Me too! And I remember when White Dwarf was a generic role playing magazine, not the house organ for GW. Still have the early copies around somewhere.

certainly GW do lol

I think they claim to have invented the "Games Workshop Hobby", whatever that is!

Then again most gamers have no idea who or what I am even though Ive been around the business for some 50 years.

I had assumed you were human and male, Leon! Are you trying to tell us you are really an alien from another planet or have some secret identity?! :-)

Personal logo 28mm Fanatik Supporting Member of TMP25 Apr 2019 7:33 a.m. PST

deephorse wrote:

Yet another sweeping statement. You don't know where I live, what rules I like to play.

You conveniently left out the first part of my question (underlined below) as to why you're not playing Battlegroup (a good game by all accounts) and cherry-picked what you don't like to hear. And it wasn't a statement but a question. I previously wrote:

Why? Is it because you don't particularly like the rules, or is it because you can't find other people to play with…

But no matter because the salient issue is why Battlegroup books are in such short supply: TMP link It's basic Marketing 101 that if you want your product to succeed commercially and be played by as many potential gamers as possible, you have to give it a high profile through advertising and make it readily available in stores (both online and retail). This is what I mean by "market presence." There's really no reason why PSC can't be as just as successful commercially with Battlegroup as Battlefront and Warlord with their respective games if it chooses to be.

But hey, if PSC doesn't care about that and are satisfied with offering nothing more than a niche game (as Piers calls it) with a limited player base due to the shortage of books, then no skin off my back and good luck.

LeonAdler Sponsoring Member of TMP25 Apr 2019 7:36 a.m. PST

Fred Cartwright,
If I answered that question I'd have to hunt you down…………lol
L

VonBlucher25 Apr 2019 8:23 a.m. PST

Well my local shop has been stocking BG rules and theater books now since last October and I even talked the owner, into giving them a try as he owns a massive collection of 20mm forces, that have been sitting dormant for a number of years.

I have always thought that BG was a little like GDB for Napoleonic's that if you get a chance to play them, you're hooked. So BG might not be mainstream yet, but based on the growing numbers on their Facebook page (just under 4,000 now), they seem to be collecting quite allot of new players who have moved away from FOW and even some from BA.

deephorse25 Apr 2019 8:45 a.m. PST

You conveniently left out the first part of my question (underlined below) as to why you're not playing Battlegroup (a good game by all accounts) and cherry-picked what you don't like to hear.

And yet another assumption, that I ignored something I didn't like to hear. I ignored the first part because it wasn't relevant. I don't have to ‘not like' a set of rules in order not to play them.

I too started with Airfix kits, and the tiny OO/HO Germans & 8th Army sets, maybe around 1966. I don't need all these Johnny Come Latelys with their glossy rules and accompanying boxed sets to tell me how to play WWII to their way of thinking. Wasn't it Warlord that made a Pegasus Bridge that was longer than the maximum range of a rifle in their rules? Or so I've heard!

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