"The Bavarians at the Battle of Rocoux 1746 ..." Topic

Hello everyone,

I know that there were 6 battalions to I believe 5 companies each including one of grenadiers?

Anyone know the names of the Bavarian units at this battle?

For their uniform for now I only found what is on the Funcken, it's better than nothing …

Who has better?

Thank you.

You might want to explore the series of books by Charles Grant entitled "Wargaming in History" as they may cover the period you are after.

I can find little references elsewhere to the Bavarian OOB from that time and also other sources that do not list the Bavarians as being at that battle at all.

link

I found an AAR of the battle by a distinguished wargamer.

link

Sorry JimDuncanUK, but I also have battle orders for this battle and it is said that under the treaty signed between the new Elector of Bavaria Maximilian-Joseph (influenced by his mother Marie-Amélie) and Marie-Thérèse,6 Bavarian infantry battalions come in reinforcement by the bridge of Viset on October 10 and move under the orders of Prince de Waldeck …

Leibregiment
Seckendorff
Preysing
Hildburghausen
d'Envie
Düring

Only the Leibregiment and Seckendorff arrived in time for the battle. The other four arrived a month later.

Source: Het Staatse Leger, Deel IX, Amsterdam 2012. Footnote no. 32 on page 304.

The Leib and Seckendorff regiments were at Rocoux

I can't find the identity (ies) of the other regiment (s) but I will keep looking. I don't know if Bavarian regiments had one or two battalions so there could be as little as one more regiment or as many as 4 more battalions.

My source is Peter Lenders and I have the highest confidence in his research and information.

The Bavarians were hired by the Dutch army, FYI

That's interesting Paskal.

Obviously the two Bavarian battalions present did not warrant separate identification in the French forces numbered at 120,000 to some historians.

In an ideal world a universal translation of such records would be invaluable.

I have a copy CS Grants uniform books.

Would you like an extract of the relevant page on the Bavarian infantry of the Marlborough period?

Jim,

Wouldn't a Treaty with Maria-Therese mean they were on the Allied side, rather than the French?

More than likely Mollinary, my bad.

Still, they seem to be ignored by many historians.

Didn't Bavaria change sides now and again?

While we're at it, does anyone have an order of battle for Rocoux that they are prepared to share or can anyone point to where I might find one? We would be gaming using Might and Reason, so the oob would not need to be particularly detailed.

Thank you

Hi Paskal- here is some info about why the Bavarians appeared on the allied side in 1746, having been allied to the French until the previous year. Also about why the Bavarian contingent in 1746-8 was wearing DARK blue uniforms-

TMP link

In my post on this thread I wrongly estimated that the 6 Bavarian battalions came from just 3 regiments- Leib, Seckendorf and Preysing.

I now know that those regiments only contributed a single battalion each, and that there were three other regiments (composite units made up I think of troops form several regular regiments). 9th Maine has names for these other units above, but there were alternative names for these units too- maybe temporary commanders who changed in the campaign. I have Nyhs, During or Hegnenberg, and Sonderhausen.

Here are the uniforms- Leib, Seckendorf, Preysing L to R.

link

and Nyhs, During, Sonderhausen

link

Aside from the 6 infantry battalions- there were also 4 companies (2 sqns) of Dragoons from the Piosasque/Preysing Regiment, and a company of artillery. I don't know whether the latter were just the crews for battalion guns or were a field battery.

As far as I can make out the very blurred map of Rocoux I have- the Bavarians were at the far left of the allied line, near the city.

Some more info on those Bavarians in Holland – from a couple Regimental histories:

"In an act concluded on 21 July 1746 with Maria Theresa, the Elector pledged to lend 6000 men for four years as a subsidiary to Holland. These were formed into 5 battalions of 9 companies each and 1 battery."

"6000 men had to be subcontracted to 4 years in Holland, which they took over in Donauwörth on 26th August. Under the command of the Prince of Hildburghausen, – Leib Regt., Seckendorff, Hildburghausen, Envie (Minucci), and Düring each form a battalion, accompanied by a battery under Hauptmann v. Alsson."

A few clarifications to Seneffe's post:
1.Düring became Hegnenberg in 1748
2.d'Envie became Nye (Nyhs) in 1748
3.Schwarzburg-Sonderhausen was not a Bavarian regiment. It was a joint regiment raised by the Princes of Schwarzburg-Sonderhausen and Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt and rented to the Netherlands in 1748.

Source: Georg Tessin, Die Regimenter der Europäishen Staaten im Ancien Regime,Teil 1 Die Stammlisten

Morier's paintings are of units in the Allied Army under Cumberland in 1748.

Would be interested in the source which mentions the dragoons.

Thank you all so,it's genial !Please send as much information as you can about all the plans on the Bavarian contingents (and Hessian I do not forget).Thank you all.

@JimDuncanUK: At Rocoux these two or six Bavarian battalions were in the army of the pragmatic sanction against France …

At the time of the war of succession of Spain the Bavarian battalions were with 5 companies of which one of grenadier, but at the time of Rocoux, I do not know yet?

Bavaria changes sides now and again? It is very simple Jim it is by virtue of the treaty signed between the new Electeu of Bavière Maximilien-Joseph (influenced by his mother Marie-Amélie) and Marie-Thérése.

Some additional information:
5 regiments provided 6 battalions, each of one grenadier and eight fusilier companies. Leibregiment, Hilburghausen, Preysing and d'Envie provided one battalion each. Seckendorff provided two battalions. The second battalion was renamed Düring. The prescribed strength of each battalion was 783 men plus prima plana.

Artillery Company of Captain Alsson had 6 artillery pieces, but I have not been able to find the size. Probably battalion/regimental pieces.

Have not been able to find any reference to dragoons.

Source: Karl Staudinger, Geschichte des kurbayerischen Heeres, Vol.3, Part 1

Bravo, congratulations and thank you !

They were fighting in 4 or 5 ranks I guess? With the grenadier company on the right?

Yes my mistake- I meant Hildburghausen not Sonderhausen.

I'll try to find the Bavarian Dragoons reference- it's in my 1746-48 OOB notes but but didn't take a reference. I'm sure I found it on the internet so will try to re-acquire it.

We should perhaps also be interested in their uniforms …

Do you know how Bavarian non-commissioned officers and officers of the infantry and the cavalry were armed during the WAS? Links would be welcome, thank you.

link

The bavarians Leib, Seckendorff and Preysing (2 bns each I think) were also re-uniformed by the Dutch in coats made up from the standard Dutch dark blue cloth.

And what do you think of what Mr Stephen Manley wrote about the organization and the uniforms of the Bavarian Army during the WAS in his wargamer guide part IX of his serie THE WAR OF AUSTRIAN SUCCESSION ?

I doubt that the bavarians would worn dutch uniforms, they were not part of the dutch army, just hired troops

There is no question that they have Dutch uniforms, but that they have used coats made up from the standard Dutch dark blue cloth.

TMP link

Paskal,
I don't know if the statement by Seneffe is correct. I have sadly not seen any information to confirm it.
The Bavarians themselves did use a darker blue coloured coat then the normal Bavarian associated cornflower blue coat but that has nothing to do with the fact that some units were hired out to the Dutch.
The units which were not hired by the Dutch also use this darker shade of blue.
But as said, it could be that they were uniformed by the Dutch or at least received the fabric to made thei uniformes

Yes in my opinion, they received the Dutch darker blue cloth to made their uniformes…

On the other hand, I saw figures of Bavarian grenadiers of the SYW, by removing the plate of their fur caps they become Bavarian grenadiers of the WAS, so it's amazing how they look like Austrian grenadiers – when the figure is not painted
and if we forget the color of the uniforms – because with the straps that crisscross on the chest, their square ended are invisible …

Details of the initial organisation and terms of service of these troops at page 248. I was hoping to find reference to the four companies of Piosasque/Preysing Dragoons that I am sure I have read (somewhere!) were also part of this corps at some point. But there is no reference to them here, so I'm either mistaken or they were a later addition.

link

Thank you Seneffe.

All battalions have almost the same strength !

Impossible …

But it would be nice to have this for the English, Dutch, Hanoverian, Austro-Hungarian and French units at Fontenoy !

Paskal- it is worth remembering that these are government/political documents about the establishment strengths agreed by the allies before the campaign- so what strengths the various units SHOULD have had.

This was important for three reasons-

1) As in all coalitions, there was suspicion that allies were not contributing as much as they should/could- so it was important that a solid agreement of what each promised was reached in advance- even if reality checks were also needed (see below).

2) Connected to the above- the amount of British financial support to its allies- especially the Austrians was directly related to the troop strength they provided- so these documents were the baseline for that. British officers were tasked to check allied numbers periodically but suspected the Austrians in particular tried to deceive them by 'double counting' soldiers at some inspections.

3) In a constitutional monarchy/parliamentary democracy like the UK- this was all accountable to Parliament who approved the funding. We might think that publishing all of this detail during a war was rather insecure from a military counterintelligence perspective- but that's how they did public accountability back them. I doubt the court at Versailles felt the need to account for military spending the way the British Government did, though a few decades later, Louis XVI might have wished that they had done……

I think they are still useful documents though for identifying the regiments deployed in Flanders.

Yes anyway for the WAS impossible to find actual combat strength for infantry battalions, cavalry regiments ect …

The Bavarian advance detachment of two battalions, Leibregiment and Seckendorff, joined the allied army on 9th October under Major General Zievel and suffered very great casualties at Rocoux. The other four Bavarian battalions arrived in theater after the battle. The 2nddetachment of Preysing and Hildburghausen under Colonel v. Werthorn arrived on the 16th. The 3rd detatchment of d'Envie and Düring under GM Graf Envie arrived on the 28th. The strength of each unit is given for the Austrians, but not for the Bavarians. Source: k. und k. Kriegsarchivs, Oesterreichischer Erbfolge-Krieg 1740-1748, volume 9. This volume is not available on line, but can be accessed at some university libraries and the Newberry in Chicago.

I checked my Staudinger volumes and agree that the battalion strength was about 780. The casualties at Rocoux for the two battalions was over 580. A very bloody day for the Bavarians.

@ALL
Thanks.