Ned Ludd | 18 Dec 2016 3:11 a.m. PST |
I am intrested in finding out the cut and colour of the Bavarian infantry and cavalry uniforms during the War of Austrian succession. Were the infantry still in the light blue or had they already changed to the darker of the SYW period? |
steamingdave47 | 18 Dec 2016 8:38 a.m. PST |
Bavarian blue- always a good way to start an argument, sorry "discussion". Was it ever "light blue"? Depends on what colour your cornflowers are, I suppose. I went for the colour in this chart for my WSS and my Napoleonic: link |
de Ligne | 19 Dec 2016 2:03 a.m. PST |
This is a difficult question to answer. In the WSS the coat colour was cornflower. The early assumption by Pengel & Hurt (in English) was that this colour continued through the SYW but this was subsequently disproved when the same authors published a supplement showing that the colour was certainly medium-blue. After the SYW a white coat was adopted before they returned to the cornflower blue in the later Napoleonic war. So the question was when did the coat change from cornflower to medium-blue? I have no firm evidence but think that during the WAS they probably wore cornflower blue but because of the ruinous cost of the war adopted medium-blue as a cheaper colour of dye in the years between the WAS and the SYW. Lastly, there is evidence that they changed their flags and added the Imperial double-eagle to the familiar lozenge flags. I have pictures taken in a museum of extant examples. |
Ned Ludd | 19 Dec 2016 2:52 a.m. PST |
Thank you. I have more or less decided on the Cornflower blue for my minis. I think it must have changed between the WAS and SYW, but I am not certain on this. Thanks . |
Chokidar | 19 Dec 2016 6:28 a.m. PST |
There is an alternate body of thought to be found particularly I believe in Germany and the various Klio working groups that the cornflower (lighter) blue was worn by the Palatinate forces, and that the Bavarians proper (or inmproper for that matter!) always wore the darker colour almost to a dark blue; that the change came with the absorption of the Palatinate… would need to rummage to check dates, etc. I do like the idea of switching to white because they could not themselves agree on the colour!!! |
de Ligne | 19 Dec 2016 7:05 a.m. PST |
Yes I agree with your comments Chokidar. The only thing is that cornflower blue was already associated with Bavaria in the WSS. Certainly if I was doing SYW, I would do cornflower for Pfalz and middle-blue for Bavaria. The union of both states took place (I think) in the 1770s. It still leaves an uncertainty for the WAS. |
thehawk | 19 Dec 2016 8:56 a.m. PST |
There is a Bavarian Army museum you could ask. Page 29 of their publication linked below mentions colour and other changes but my knowledge of German isn't good enough to provide a definitive translation. PDF link |
Ned Ludd | 19 Dec 2016 12:53 p.m. PST |
now I dont know which colour to paint them again. What about the cut of the coat in the WAS was it prussian or austrian in style. I ask because I am thinking aout buying the figures from Crann Tara who sell the Prussians but I could paint convert other figures if they are in austrian styles. |
dbf1676 | 19 Dec 2016 1:46 p.m. PST |
Kronoskaf says they had Austrian cut coats in the SYW. If so, that would be more likely than the Prussian cut in the WAS. link |
9th Maine | 21 Dec 2016 6:59 a.m. PST |
I believe the Bavarians were in dark blue in the 1740s. This is based on the following sources: Brauer Uniformbogen No. 120: Bayern. Das kaiserlich-bayerische Heer unter Carl VII. Albrecht 1742-1745 (I. Teil), No. 121: Bayern. Das kaiserlich-bayerische Heer unter Carl VII. Albrecht 1742-1745 (II. Teil), No. 122: Bayern. Das kaiserlich-bayerische Heer unter Carl VII. Albrecht 1742-1745 (III. Teil) "Military Drawings and Paintings in the Royal Collection", Volumes One and Two, covers the paintings of David Morier who illustrated the Allied army in the Netherlands and Flanders during the WAS. It contains three paintings of Bavarians in 1748. Both these volumes are still available for purchase. In the 1960s, Hans Bleckwenn wrote a series of articles on these paintings that appeared in Zeitschrift für Heereskunde, entitled, "Europa kämpft in Flandern: Die Morier-Bilder in Windsor Castle". Part 1 covers the Bavarians. Bleckwenn describes the uniform as "dark blue", and the return to light blue or the so-called "cornflower blue" beginning in 1761. I am still trying to determine when the switch from light blue to dark blue occurred, but it is safe to say that the Bavarian infantry had dark blue coats in the WAS. |
Ned Ludd | 22 Dec 2016 5:00 a.m. PST |
Thank you. I will revise my plan and paint them in the darker blue, lighter than Prussian Blue but darker than the cornflower one. |
Supercilius Maximus | 22 Dec 2016 4:36 p.m. PST |
I was also under the impression that Bavarian infantry coats got much darker in the WAS/SYW period, due to the cost of the more traditional blue. Please note that this traditional blue is not "light" as in sky blue, and never was. |
9th Maine | 25 Dec 2016 4:43 a.m. PST |
SM – I certainly agree with you that the Bavarian blue is not a light blue as we currently perceive it. Perhaps the phrase "a lighter blue" than the contemporary blue (whatever that is) would be better. Staudinger mentions "Savoy blue" and this is repeated by Knötel. It would be interesting to know the origins of "cornflower blue". I haven't been able to find it in any of the sources that I have. We could, and probably will, continue to argue over the shade of blue, but without contemporary physical evidence, we will probably never know for certain. |
dbf1676 | 25 Dec 2016 7:24 a.m. PST |
The Brauer plates show a medium blue, definitely lighter than the Prussian dark blue. I would call it a cornflower blue. The black and white photos of the Morier paintings definitely look like a dark shade. Since the Brauer plates cover the period 1742-1745 and the Morier paintings are from 1748, this doesn't rule out the change being made between 1745 and 1748. Note that all the line infantry in the Brauer plate have lace on the cuffs, lapels and camisoles. The hats have cockades, which the Austrian hats did not, so keep that in mind, if you plan to use Austrian figures. |
spontoon | 25 Dec 2016 10:26 a.m. PST |
Mine are probably too light, but they'e been that way for 30 years, so not going to repaint them! |
Supercilius Maximus | 31 Dec 2016 7:23 a.m. PST |
9th Maine – Given that you can get purple cornflowers, I have come to the view that this might just be a 19th Century thing, as the latter half of that century saw Bavarian uniforms turn purple with sweat (FPW-era uniforms certainly did – troops returning from that war were not recognised in their own towns and villages!). Your suggestion of "Savoy Blue" is a much closer comparison. There are surviving bolts of cloth and individual uniforms from the Napoleonic period in the Army Museum at Ingoldstadt. link The uniform in the case to the right is the slightly darker-hued officer's coat. However, as always – your toys, your rules. As long as everyone knows who they are! |
Tricorne1971 | 04 Jan 2017 1:34 p.m. PST |
I have a reprint of Münich's 1864 book on the history of the Bavarian Army. It appears to me that the uniforms were mid-blue from at least 1654 until 1748 (or perhaps 1745) when Maximillan Joseph made some changes. The references to all the uniforms prior to this date is Blau and only in reference to the post 1745 (or 1748) uniform change is the term Dunkelblau (dark blue) used. In 1779, it is stated that the uniform color was restored to Blau. When a Bavarian uses the term Blau, it is a mid-blue, somewhat lighter than a Prussian blue with a bit of a grey hue. The flags are also referred to as Blau und Weiss, as well as the cockades of the officers during the 1740's. Morier did most of his paintings in 1748, I believe , using studio models! |
seneffe | 04 Jan 2017 2:58 p.m. PST |
The Morier paintings of the Bavarians c1748 should be very accurate. It is documented that he personally was actually with the allied army in Flanders as artist under the patronage of the Duke of Cumberland, where he also produced his famous large canvas of the Royal Artillery in camp. Morier would have had first hand access to the regiments themselves courtesy of HRH. It is true that a later commission to do all the regiments of the British army probably did use some artists models given that many of the units were abroad- however he would have had access to official pattern coats even then. Anyway- back to the Bavarians. As I understand it the dark blue coats as shown by Morier were introduced into the Bavarian army in 1746. At this point of the WAS the Bavarians effectively changed sides. With the death of Elector Charles Albert in 1745 and consequent end of the Bavarian claim to the Imperial Crown, together with the final overrun of the country by the Austrians- Bavaria was out of the war as a principal player. In time honoured style, the new Elector Maximillian decided to try to pay some of his country's huge debts by hiring the remains of his army to the folks who were at that point cash rich but troops poor- the Dutch. Many of the Dutch native troops had been captured in the string of successful French sieges in Flanders in 1745-46, and they actually ended the war with more foreigners than Dutchmen in the field. This of course brought the Bavarians onto the same team as the Austrians who had just finished ravaging their homeland for the third time in five years (including some actual units who been involved in that and subsequently transferred to Flanders) but that doesn't seem to have been a deal breaker for them. But the Bavarian troops were in such a bad state that part of the deal was that the regiments being hired out- Leib, Seckendorff and Preysing (2 bns each I think) were also re-uniformed by the Dutch in coats made up from their standard dark blue cloth. (For info there were also a few squadrons of Dragoons and some guns) These Bavarians fought well at Rocoux and elsewhere, and were I think joined by others by the end of the war. This big injection of free good quality dark blue uniform cloth possibly had the effect of influencing subsequent purchasing choices of the still very poor state in the 1750s and 60s. |
Tricorne1971 | 05 Jan 2017 12:32 a.m. PST |
I agree entirely with "seneffe" above. The Bavarians look a bit more Dutch for this reason. So now we can paint two Bavarian armies, one for early war and a second for the later period (and a third for the SYW). The miniature companies will be very happy to hear this. I have spent several days in the libraries at both the Dutch Army Museum in Delft and at Ingolstadt, and can say with some certainty that they generaly don't have any better idea than what has been presented in this thread! |
seneffe | 08 Jan 2017 1:42 p.m. PST |
Tricorne- coming from such a long standing c18th authority as yourself- that is praise in itself. |