"More outrage for the He-Man Women Haters" Topic

link

More from the lineage of Captain Marvel.
Oh noes! Another GURL, and a Muslim Woman of Color to bat!
No, Marvel/Disney is not being "lazy". She is not being invented in 2019. She's been around a while. Like a minor league AAA player being called up to The Show.
Marvel has a deep bench of superheros, many who have not yet hit the silver screen yet. A friend was bitching about a lack of Dr Doom. I wouldn't know, since I've only been watching superhero movies lately. Noisy but entertaining. Black Widow and Scarlet Witch are … easy on the eyes.

Callout to the Lads!
This is worse than a Patton tank being used as a Tiger, and your outrage will be just as relevant to the movie moguls.

For those outraged by continuity issues, there's a Shazam! movie in production now.
Back in the 40s, Captain Marvel (who is now Carol Danvers) used to be Shazam!, (insert confusing history involving three (!) different comics publishers, copyright infringement lawsuits…).

link

Winston , you should just stop reading Marvel's Garbage. They haven't had a good comic in over 20 years. When Ron Perlman bought the company it became all about Profit and milking the customers.

The print run are get smaller and smaller each year. The Movies have done nothing to save the print side of the company.

They will try anything to sell a few more books. Comics are over priced and dull. Comics have so few words in them, I don't understand why they pay a writer any more.

If you have a new idea for a character put a comic out and see if it sells. Dont steal a classic hero and bend it to your ideals and political view.

PS I was a loyal loyal Marvel fan from 1976-1996

I read only Thor, and that was briefly in the 70s.
I find the movies interesting, in a noisy entertaining way. I just love to watch outrage.

Classic John Buscema Thor was great. I'am tried of dying heroes and new PC version. I hate verses stories and endless multi series crossovers, but most its my heroes being ruined for cheap Social/political digs.

If they'd bother to go back to the '80s, they'd have found a different Captain Marvel, an African American lady (and police officer, IIRC). Entirely different set of powers, though. She was a member of the Avengers, and was featured in the original Marvel Superheoes Role Playing Game from TSR.

I do like the films, which I think have captured Stan Lee's original concepts quite well. The modern comics, not so much. (Though the recent Squirrel Girl collections are a delight, and the Runaways series is good, too.)

Winston

LOL. More virtue signaling?

It's funny what constitutes a "woman hater" in your world these days.

Dan
TMP link

If you can't stand the idea of a woman being a superhero, then you qualify. Particularly if you jump on the idea of a female Captain Marvel, having no idea of his/her history.
If you think a day is lost when you haven't found anything new to be outraged about, then you qualify.

I see absolutely no difference between a Post Doctoral Gender Studies student wanting to ban all thoughts of the Bible and a middle aged man clutching his heart like Fred Sanford if he sees Girls hanging tough with the guys in a superhero movie.

"Virtue signaling"; is that what SJWs do?
Speak real English. Don't fall into cant and code. You're too smart for that.

Unbelievable.

Well, that's why I included an actual link to the last time you got triggered* over some negative post about this movie, and you then quickly started labeling people before knowing what the comment was about to begin with.

Dan
* Yes, another SJW term (and trait).

Always liked most of the female super heroes … E.g. Wonder Woman Sue Storm, etc.

Me too!

But storylines have gotten progressively worse these last few years. A movie can't ride on CGI alone. So I'm going to focus on watching fewer superhero films from now on.

Dan

Who is the one being "triggered" here?

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP 11 May 2018 4:33 a.m. PST
Cyrus: "Ah yes, Captain Marvelle. Marvel has become sooo lazy."

I'm glad you said it and not me. Otherwise I'd be called all kinds of "-ists" by all the usual suspects, for simply making that exact same observation.

From your own link.
You're not only triggered, you have a hair trigger.

Thanks for posting that. It helps for others to know that this is just part 2 of your topic.

Yes, I prophesied that any innocent but negative comment about the film would be taken way out of proportion by some people, as being some sort of massive breach.

I just wasn't expecting you to be the one to have the fit. You even tried to throw in some bait about Black Panther.

Dan

Lol.

Dan

Wackmole9 has it correct. I dislike when classic characters are changed. Captain America is a white male patriotic American, for example. Changing those basic facts about the character changes the character far more than I like.

I generally don't care if a super hero is male or female or what their race is, many are not even human. My point is, don't change those basic traits, instead, give us a new super hero.

Hollywood has been lazy for several decades now and only wants to make movies of known properties. They want the built in audience a name super hero brings. So the old time fans show up and we find we have been insulted by the significant changes that have been made to the super hero.

It's like comic books themselves make the good guys into bad guys, they make friends fight each other,they make four variant covers of the magazine, they give us different time lines were the same basic character has a different life, all because they are too lazy and too risk adverse to simply give us new stories about new super heroes.

They new Wonder Woman movie was okay, but I dislike that they changed her from a patriotic American symbol to a more generic super hero, and WWI era character.

All because, in my opinion, Hollywood does not like patriotic American characters. Hollywood always has to change everything to provide the progressive, liberal version.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog

Personally I enjoy some of the trope challenging changes they have done to classic characters. I enjoyed the Jane Foster version of Thor, and really like Laura Kinney version of Wolverine (sad that the title is getting axed because Logan cannot stay dead…at least the character will go on in X-23). Characters like Thor & Wolverine have been around since at least the '60s; there are only so many stories you can do that stay compelling & not retread old ground without altering the character from its original premise. I think both Jane & Laura brought new & interesting perspectives on their respective characters, in ways that actually expanded the lore.

Damon.

As an aside, for those of you who are on Facebook I can highly recommend the "Grumpy Skeletor" group, which is always worth a look for a giggle or two.

The argument isn't whether or not a woman can be a super hero. Wonder Woman came around, what, in the 1940s? As a kid, I found a hard bound black and white compilation of the classic Wonder Woman stories and found them to be amazing. These were 30-40 year old comics at the time and I loved them.

I grew up with Storm, Jean Gray, Wonder Woman, The Wasp, Cat Woman, and a host of really awesome female super heroes who you probably have never heard of. I, and frankly most, comic book readers have no issue at all with female super heroes.

I think you miss the point entirely. It is the laziest thing in the world to just take an established character and reinvent them as something else because you don't have to do the hard work of establishing a new character.

If you decide to go the route of changing an established character, you have to be exceedingly careful in how that happens if you want to be successful. Fans were up in arms when Michael Keaton was announced as Batman and again when Heath Ledger was announced as The Joker- in both cases the actual product was amazingly well realized and fans came around to it. They also screamed when Jared Leto was announced as Joker and those fears turned out to have merit (despite the fact that I like Jared Leto- he was an awful Joker). Sometimes fans are just being whiney but can be won over- sometimes they can be dead on.

Marvel used to do a smart thing with their 'What If' comics as a fun bit of side bar and even DC has done this with nary a stir amongst the comic community. Some of them have been a lot of fun.

Other times reinventing a character can lead to great success. Most comic book fans will tell you, for instance, that the best green lantern ever was John Stewart- the black green lantern. This is because a) the green lantern was always established as a title- not a person, and b) he was written exceedingly well.

Captain Marvel as Carol Danvers has been around since 1977, so screaming about it is a bit late in the game. The angst isn't that she's Captain Marvel- that change was really well done in the comics. It's that in the movies it's being stated publicly as a reaction to too many male characters in the movies. Had they just made a kick ass Carol Danvers and let audiences discover her on her own, there would never have been a problem. Look at Jessica Jones on Netflix. Many would argue she's the best of the Netflix series. Her show is really well made with really strong characters. Some are even reimagined from their comic book versions but fans really enjoy that show. You can't have it both ways. The same fans that love Jessica Jones resent being preached at with Ms. Marvel.

If you just change a character to be confrontational, you are going to get backlash. If you tell fans you are doing it to teach them a lesson or because they are morally inferior, you are going to have issues, even if they might have agreed with you in the first place.

Iron Man has been someone other than Tony Stark before- he was a black man, James Rhodes, and fans loved it. That was because he was a well established character and the changeover made sense in the context of the story and none of the writers stated it was done because, 'Screw you fanboys!' Few people were upset about black Iron Man then.

The most recent Iron Man was made into a teenage black girl out of the blue and the writers stated that it was because they wanted to push progressive agendas in Marvel comics and that they didn't think the old fans were worth retaining because they wanted younger fans with fresher ideas. They did this move at the same time as several other moves- Thor as a woman, Captain America as a Hydra agent. There was no real effort to set this up with story- but rather to shove it in the faces of those they disagreed with. It failed horribly with sales down across the board for comics because even if you agree with someone, starting from the standpoint of "FU" is never a great way to encourage your fanbase.

Let's face it, if a big company came out with a new Napoleonic game where Josephine is the Emperor and the soldiers were now made up of equal parts women and people of color and General Ney was actually transgender and the Napoleonic players were told this was being done because they are a bunch of trolls who need to get with the times and open up their minds to progressive ideals, some people would say, 'Hey, that's interesting' but the core audience would vocally freak out.

You may say, 'Well that's history, that's different. This is fiction.' Many of these characters were developed before many of us were even born, so for us they are a kind of history. But beyond that it's about how you do something.

If you walk into someone's home unbidden and start with 'you suck' you will get a far different reception than if you came to them with arms outstretched and asked them to try something new without preaching to them or judging them outright.

The same fan boys who love such diverse shows as Firefly and The Expanse are the same fan boys who derided some of the calls made on Star Trek Discovery. They are the same fanboys who will scream that "The definitive Dark Phoenix movie must be made" while simultaneously reacting negatively to the suddenly antifa loving Iron Man who is actually a black teenage girl who seems to be completely on board with locking up people she disagrees with without trial because they aren't woke.

The answer is a bit more complex than 'they are sexist, racist, islamophobes.' But nuance doesn't make for good clickbait.

Hollywood suffers from Pauline Kael Syndrome. If it is outside their frame of reference and beliefs, it doesn't count.
The Passion of the Christ made a ton of money. Faith themed movies also do quite well. But they are considered "outriders". They don't really count.
"Let's do some more of those Jesus movies. But can't you make him gay?" That kind of thing.
They COULD do patriotic movies, and make a ton of money off them. In the USA. But patriotic movies are not in their mindset.
Consider also that movies today are made with the idea that only 50% of the gross comes from America. The Chinese market counts for a huge percentage of the expected gross. Will the Chinese accept a movie with patriotic American heroes? You can answer that yourself.
Thus Wonder Woman, and the semi neutering of the patriotism of Captain America.

The next patriotic American movie will make a ton of money in the USA. Then Hollywood will copy it, but badly. The copies will have to be "edgy" because that's sophisticated. Even SPR had issues.
I see badly made and edgy follow ups on Dunkirk. Which is sad. The British used to make the best un-self-conscious patriotic movies. How many years since the last one to Dunkirk? And the next GOOD one will be just as long.

Plus 1 to CC, StoneMtnMinis, and especially TGerritsen.

Sheeeeze….everyone an "ist" if they in any way just like some inconsequential things to stay like they were. Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar, not a platform for a bunch of Shamers.

The history of the various heroes with the name "Marvel" can be confusing.

The original "Captain Marvel" was a Superman copy developed by a rival comic book publisher to Action Comics. From this character we have the phrase "Shazam!" as well as a "family" of related superheroes with similar powers, all bearing the name "Marvel." Action Comics eventually became DC comics and bought the rival publisher and the rights to "Captain Marvel" and his related characters. For a time, I believe, the Captain Marvel stories were in limbo.

Marvel Comics during this time introduced a series of super beings based on exotic alien cultures. Among these was an alien military officer named (unoriginally) "Captain Marvell." He bore no resemblance to the Shazam character. Later, Marvel Comics created a superhero character, this time a female hero, named "Miss Marvel." She was followed by yet another "Captain Marvel," described in my earlier post, whose powers were based on manipulation of EM radiation. That character was killed off (dying of cancer caused by her own powers, IIRC). "Miss Marvel" became modernized to "Ms. Marvel" at another point, and then became "Captain Marvel" herself (I think… Never really followed any of that closely at all.) "Ms. Marvel" as the new teen Muslim girl is from 2013, and a subsequent development. Honestly, at this point the nature and name of any of Marvel Comics' various eponymous heroes or heroines is probably a big "ho-hum" to fans, as none of these characters were ever top tier attractions and have never had an iconic place in the Marvel canon. I suspect the only reason they exist today probably has to do with maintaining a copyright claim on their use.

As for the original Captain Marvel of Shazam glory, he's still around in the DC stable as far as I know. Last I followed were his appearances in the JLA/JLI series of the late '80s and early '90s, though as a child I collected the 1970s Captain Marvel comics, though I suspect these were largely reprints of his '50s-'60s runs. And of course in that '70s-'80s he was part of the live action Captain Marvel/Isis Saturday television show, which I watched faithfully!

Don't forget the ONLY truism of comic books.

NSFW

YouTube link

Tempest in a teacup?

If a character has been around for a few years …. decades, any creative writer worth his salt would want to shake things up a bit. Or you can fall back on a tired formula. That's why Conan Doyle killed off Sherlock Holmes. That's why the later stories read like CD was just going through the motions.
It's why The Sopranos was sleepwalking in the last years.
It's why once Homeland killed off Brody… it's why you get what you got this year.
Gotta milk the cow, even when she's gone dry.

Game of Thrones was always intended to end, once the story was told. I'm not holding my breath on the quality of the spin-offs. Jon Snow was always meant to be the son of Rhaegar. They didn't suddenly make him an agitator for the Old Republic.

Captain America was introduced in World War 2. I could see letting him retire and collect. But since "they" can't bear to let him go, and since "they" have to be edgy, he is now, and always has been, Hydra. Dumb.

@TGerritsen

Brilliant analysis and exposition. Thanks for sharing it.

>Tempest in a teacup?

Well it depends. The progressive in charge of this sort of thing explicitly frame it as an effort to destroy the stories of white men in order to cleanse the earth of their evil.

And that isn't subtext. It is the explicit thesis of innumerable articles on places like TheMarySue.com

I find it oddly hard to take well open and effective efforts to destroy the symbols and myths of my people by people who are open about their desire and intention to see is gone and for whom this is an announced part of their strategy to see that happen.

And it isn't like hijacking superhero movies is their only vector of assault. Wherever progressives gain institutional power they immediately start to mercilessly wield it against those they have been taught to view as evil subhuman oppressors.

So on the one hand it is just stupid movies. On the other hand it part of an openly declared war of extermination waged by the global elite against my people.

I think this thread needs to be moved to the butthurt

board.

Ach. My life isn't going remotely well enough for me to politely not notice how much progressives hate me.

I ain't no boomer who is too successful to be bothered by that sort of thing.

Geez. Most superhero movies feature white male leads. We get one superheroine movie from Marvel in the 21st Century (unless we count 'Elektra' from 2005) finally and people bring out the torches and pitch forks.

BTW DC's first wasn't 'Wonder Woman.' You may remember the 1984 'Supergirl' starring Helen Slater.

>BTW DC's first wasn't 'Wonder Woman.' You may remember the 1984 'Supergirl' starring Helen Slater.

Yeah but back then the people making the movies weren't constantly boasting about how they were doing it to punish the privileged oppressor caste and cleanse the earth of the scourge of whiteness.

Or at least you couldn't read them doing it and patting each other on the back on twitter.

@Winston Smith,
I stand by my original comments, although I should've written it Captain Mar-velle. TGerritsen really gets my comment about Marvel being "sooo lazy" and this is not the first time its happened…and probably not the last.

I like how "giving women a fair deal" becomes "they were doing it to punish the privileged oppressor caste and cleanse the earth of the scourge of whiteness"

>I like how "giving women a fair deal" becomes "they were doing it to punish the privileged oppressor caste and cleanse the earth of the scourge of whiteness"

As I say you can read about the motivations of progressives in any number of places.

Or ask them. They are generally very happy to tell you what they are doing.

Lol. You don't even have to do much asking either to hear some really funny ones, it seems. :)

Dan

Yeah but back then the people making the movies weren't constantly boasting about how they were doing it to punish the privileged oppressor caste and cleanse the earth of the scourge of whiteness.

Sometimes it does seem that way … But is that like many things in the media or even life i.e. a vocal minority ?

BTW DC's first wasn't 'Wonder Woman.' You may remember the 1984 'Supergirl' starring Helen Slater.

Linda Carter as Wonder Woman on TV was in the late '70s ?

"What a dish !"

I was speaking strictly of movies, but Lynda Carter is a fine piece of work. Other lesser known TV shows from roughly the same era include Sid and Marty Krofft's 'Elektra Woman and Dyna Girl' (think female Batman and Robin) and 'The Secrets of Isis' (Joanna Cameron was oh so fine and who wouldn't like to discover her secrets?):

All this backlash against perceived injustices suffered by the white man brings to mind a certain Shakespeare comedy with Benedick and Beatrice.

And now. Here's one for the youngsters.
YouTube link

Let's give her a really big hand.

Hmm… nobody dawghoused yet, I guess the plot has failed.

She's so unusual!

Those lyrics and that performance needed a lot more that just a big hand, Winston.

As to the OP, I remember commenting on Ms. Marvel back when she was first introduced in 13 – nothing has changed in the interim.

You can make every super hero in the movies and on the tube or in comics a super heroine and the biology and anatomy of the male and female of the species isn't going to change one iota.

And with current mores, a female on the big screen taking names and kicking posteriors isn't going to generate any more respect for females when it comes to casual relationships.

Uh oh, Goragrad, it sounds like you might now end up in Winston's imaginary "He-Man Woman Hater Club" too! :)

Dan
PS. Hey Corro Predo, do you think he'll try a "Woman Hater" Part 3 thread in a few days?

No need.

I only read Conan the Barbarian, and don't forget that Red Sonja kicked butt too. The rest of the comics can go rot.

I was speaking strictly of movies, but Lynda Carter is a fine piece of work.

I'd think most men [and probably some women] would agree …

Hmm… nobody dawghoused yet, I guess the plot has failed.

The day is young …

I don't buy that SJW crap. I like to keep politics out of my entertainment. Hence why I no longer go to see star wars movies.

Since when is putting a woman in a film "politics"?

>Since when is putting a woman in a film "politics"?

Basically since the modern left rejected liberalism in favour of totalitarian Progressivism, turning everything (and I do mean *everything*) in to a zero sum battle for status between ethnic groups and indeed between men and women (and genderqueer dragonkin etc), and fully embracing their authoritarian desires to micromanage everyone else's life, right down to their fantasies and contents of their head.

So some time around 2012 ish. About when you started hearing terms like White Privilege, Problematic, People of Colour etc.

@DesertScrb,

There will always be people who complain how the entertainment industry is the province of liberals who gleefully shove their agendas down our throats through movies and other media. These people allow themselves to get angry and riled up reading the editorials, opinions and proclamations of a few firebrands who claim "victory" for gender rights, racial equality or similar causes whenever a movie appears to validate their world views.

While Hollywood tends to be more liberal than conservative, that has always been the case in its history. These people don't seem to recognize that our entertainment reflects society's current social mores, values and expectations. It may not be your values/expectations in particular, but now we live in the generation of millenials and post-millenials (Gen Z).

Times change. Remember when smoking was not only acceptable but actually cool in movies? I don't smoke, but I miss those movies.

Ranting about Social Justice Warriors (SJW's) out to "get" men who happen to be white is like the old geezer who shakes his fist at kids telling them to get off his lawn. Pointless and ultimately futile.

We get it. Nobody is forcing you to watch movies.

Forcing people to do things they clearly don't want to do is what progressivism is all about.

Be it calling a man in a wig she or baking a cake for a gay marriage and smiling while you do it or ensuring that your 28mm wwii paratroopers have the same demographics as the San Francisco Bay Area circa 2018, there is no aspect of thought and behaviour toterant Progressives do not wish to control.

And there is a certain amount of evidence that their demands do not represent much of the population.

If the progressive don't stamp their jackboots on people's heads hard enough they keep doing things like making Grand Theft Auto 5 the best selling video game in the uk *years* after it came out and .

Now, maybe these totalitarian s are destined to rule (at least until people get tired of their and string them all up) but I don't see why I have to like it. (Certainly they have a stranglehold on institutional power in what used to be the Free World, but their ideology is so repressive and alien to human nature I can't see them building a lasting society from it. So surely at some point the survivors will crawl from the wreckage and promise not to try Progressivism again for at least another fifty years)

And in the meantime, since Progs have made it *very* clear that the only place for people like me in their world (and therefore by extension mainstream western culture) is as soap (or if I am particularly lucky some sort of lampshade) I need to find some way to 1) avoid their death camps of diversity and tolerance and 2) make the best of what I have left to work with.