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"US Offers Rebuild N Korea Economy If It Denuclearizes???" Topic


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1,206 hits since 12 May 2018
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Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP12 May 2018 5:01 p.m. PST

Just in from BBC:

link

We are such damn suckers.

Communist China is surely loving this. We get to waste more money and time on one of its puppets. Not to mention the added division and anger among us back home. So another win-win-win for them.

Dan
PS. Anyone remember what became of the last pile of food and cash that was sent in that direction?

charared Supporting Member of TMP12 May 2018 5:40 p.m. PST

Hold on Dan…

I don't believe THIS PotUS is as na´ve/stupid as MANY of his immediate predecessors.

Let's see how this plays out.

Charlie

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP12 May 2018 5:48 p.m. PST

Charlie

I really hope you are right. I hope this is simply buying us time for a more permanent solution.

Dan

28mm Fanatik12 May 2018 6:19 p.m. PST

I see this as Realpolitik similar to Nixon's and Kissinger's shuttle diplomacy which cemented the Sino-Soviet split. The US (and S Korea) sees the denuclearization of N Korea as the necessary first step in a sea change that would lead to the reunification of the two Koreas.

By improving diplomatic and economic relations with N Korea as well as helping to build and modernize its infrastructure, N Korea could serve as a counter to China.

China is terrified of losing its N Korean satellite. The two recent trips Kim made to China was at Beijing's request to get assurances that Kim will not become too cozy with the West. Think of how China will react if Kim allows us to move those THAAD anti-ballistic missiles up closer to its border with China.

The POTUS isn't as ignorant as we may think he is. We just haven't seen a leader subscribing to Realpolitik like this in a very, very long time. Kinda refreshing actually.

VonTed12 May 2018 6:33 p.m. PST

If western contractors get let in….. the window to some western freedoms will open and north Korea's days are numbered.

I suspect they lost their ability to test nuclear weapons and this is the best option available to them….

cosmicbank12 May 2018 7:24 p.m. PST

North Korea is playing Chess USA playing checkers

zoneofcontrol12 May 2018 7:48 p.m. PST

US businesses, troops, contractors and influence above the 38th Parallel on peaceful terms would give certain people nightmares. What shape that takes gives ME nightmares. Should be an interesting next few months and years.

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP13 May 2018 1:24 a.m. PST

"US Offers Rebuild N Korea Economy If It Denuclearizes"

Or maybe something should be done to the economies who helped "nuclearize" North Korea in the first place.

And here I was hoping that we would finally stop investing in, bailing out (payola) and "nation-building" our enemies, and those who are simply looking for the means to become our enemies. And then it is WE who end up getting blamed for enabling those regimes (usually by the same people who urged us to do it "for the people").

Dan
PS. The again, we've been selling China lots of "rope" for decades, and that has worked out so well for us and for our manufacturing industry. So, why not do that with their puppet (NK) as well, right?

picture

Personal logo Patrick R Supporting Member of TMP13 May 2018 2:13 a.m. PST

I predict that in six months headlines will return to the threat of a third world war when Kim starts once again his promise to rain nuclear death onto the US.

He's only being nice and making a bunch of promises he will back out of once the aid money rolls in and keeps North Korea going for another few months and by that I mean the usually 80/19/1 division. Yes the North Korean people are the only nation to have an overwhelming percentage of 1% and that's about all they get out of the North Korean BNP … 19% goes to the military and the elites and 80% goes direct to the Kim criminal family, making them one of the most successful authoritarian leaders for a very long time, making even the worst African Kleptocrats look like amateurs.

They have done this dozens of times over the years and it has always paid off, I don't see why things would change any time now.

Ideology has nothing to do with it, not since the day grandpa Kim took control of the state. It's been a convenient way to mooch off the two sucker neighbors, but if it helped in any way, they would pretend to be whatever is the most convenient. Don't think that ideology dictates how states are run, it's all about how you get power and who you have to reward for it.

28mm Fanatik13 May 2018 10:42 a.m. PST

He's only being nice and making a bunch of promises he will back out

Very possible, but S Korea seems to think he's sincere this time and things will be different. I don't know what to think, but I don't think Kim is dumb enough to make the same mistake Libya's Gaddafi did, giving up his nukes and stockpile of WMD's (chemical and biological) for next to nothing only to be stabbed in the back by the west a few years later when Nato imposed a no fly zone over Libya to seal his fate in the Libyan civil war: link

During the 2011 NATO intervention in Libya, Gaddafi tried using Libya's voluntary disarmament to convince NATO to cease its Libya operations. At the same time, Gaddafi's son Saif and others in the Libyan government expressed their regret about Libya's previous disarmament. It was speculated in the media (especially in the Middle Eastern media) that NATO's 2011 intervention in Libya (which led to Gaddafi's overthrow and killing at the hands of the Libyan rebels) would make Iran, North Korea, and possibly other countries more reluctant to give up their nuclear programs and/or nuclear weapons due to the risk of being weakened and/or double-crossed as a result.


Kim may be a brutal dictator who deserves to be toppled, tried for "crimes against humanity" and executed, but he's not going to just lie down and accept that fate without a fight.

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP13 May 2018 12:19 p.m. PST

Yeah, I remember the interview. "We came, we saw, he died", followed by giddy laughter. And now ISIS, Al Qaeda, etc are making a paradise of that place. Same with Yemen.

This might be a good time to stop "helping" Syria, now that ISIS has gone back to the shadows.

As for the "Democratic" People's Republic of (North) Korea, it's time to let it implode on its own.

Dan

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP13 May 2018 1:57 p.m. PST

I'm simply glad that the collective membership of TMP (or Frothers for that matter) do not run the world.

charared Supporting Member of TMP13 May 2018 4:42 p.m. PST

North Korea is playing Chess USA playing checkers

Yep.

USA Playing Chinese Checkers and Lil' Rocket Man "playing" with fire.

thumbs up

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP13 May 2018 5:24 p.m. PST

Don't tell Gary Kasparov or Vasilly Ivanchuk that checkers is a simple minded game.

Nick Bowler13 May 2018 8:10 p.m. PST
Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2018 2:27 a.m. PST

The N Koreans would be mad to surrender their nuclear weapons.

Look what it's got them so far.
I'm afraid you must conclude Kim has outthought the US leadership to this point.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2018 8:15 a.m. PST

I think that the collapse of the mountain where the Norks were testing their nukes had much to do with the offer to de-nuke.
The fate of Kaddafi, who voluntarily surrendered his program after the Gulf War should give him pause, though. Spite did him in. Naming no names.

This is such a turnaround that I would not be very surprised to learn that unification talks are going on behind the scenes. That would certainly frighten the Chinese. Combine the economic power of the South with the nuclear knowledge of the North. Kim may promise to give up a program when he can no longer use his principal test site, but he never promised to burn his notes.

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2018 8:38 a.m. PST

@ Winston

It is popular in the West to call Kim demeaning names, to claim he's crazy etc. I also don't believe half of the stories about his bloodthirsty shenanigans.

That's not to say I don't think him an objectionable object but such " tactics" miss the fact he's a cunning beast who needs to be carefully outmanoeuvred by diplomatic means. I say again, he seems to have the measure of the American leadership.

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2018 1:27 p.m. PST

Lil Kim is definitely yanking everyone's chains … now he's threatening to cancel the summit because the US and South Korea didn't cancel their scheduled military drills:

link

Seriously, even if some sort of deal is struck, the little guy clearly has no intention of ever keeping to any of its terms. I really don't understand why there are so many people putting so much hope on the gestures and promises of that little pile of cow chips.

Big waste of time and money. Plus he gets all the international attention he wants (and needs) to look before his subjects as though he has the world wrapped around his pinky.

Dan
PS. This whole thing is a joke, an intentional distraction tactic to gain something bigger somewhere else. But, of course, the anti-Americans among us will say it failed because of us, because we didn't humor him enough.

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picture

Begemot In the TMP Dawghouse15 May 2018 2:55 p.m. PST

Caribe:

… the anti-Americans among us …

Who gave you the franchise to define who or what is "American"? Are you like Louis XIV, who declared "I am the state", in that whatever agrees with your views is true Americanism Deleted by Moderator

Lion in the Stars15 May 2018 3:15 p.m. PST

There are several competing issues at play here:

China does not want a US ally on their border.

Korea (both of them!) doesn't want to be a Chinese (or, Gods forbid, a Japanese) puppet state ever again, so they want someone powerful as an ally to prevent that from ever happening.

Nobody wants Kim Jong Unstable to have a nuke he can put on a ballistic missile. Not even the Chinese.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2018 4:35 p.m. PST

Thank you, Begemot.

"You have to give Joe McCarthy credit for standing up for America. Even though he may have, rarely, made an arithmetic error or two."

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2018 9:59 p.m. PST

Lion: "Kim Jong Unstable"

Ha! I'm going to have to steal that one!

Too bad he's not the only one like that around. Then again, most presidents for life eventually do end up behaving that way, so more of this stuff is still in the future.

Dan

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2018 9:59 p.m. PST

@ Winston.

Most amusing. And some folk claim Americans aren't adroit with irony.

Who actually said that?

28mm Fanatik16 May 2018 7:21 a.m. PST

I also don't believe half of the stories about his bloodthirsty shenanigans.

By which I assume you mean executing his enemies by anti-aircraft fire or unleashing starving dogs on them.

I wondered about that myself. The way to keep people in fear of what could happen if they plot against you is to create a reputation of ruthlessness for yourself, even if it's based on myth.

So far all that's verified is the assassination of his half brother, who tried to defect with the help of the CIA: link

I guess this means I made Dan's Un-American list. Oh well.

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP16 May 2018 10:24 a.m. PST

Interesting. My defense got completely deleted (as if it had never been posted there), but Winston's eager and wholehearted support of the attack on "fascist" me, with him then piling on and comparing me to McCarthy, still remains?

Where's the logic in that? LOL

Dan

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP16 May 2018 12:50 p.m. PST

Since you want to define what is "American" and what is anti-American, I think I was accurate.
Since Begemot got the DH for violating the vague "Nazi rule" I'm just curious why you are still out and free for suggesting "anti-American" impure thoughts. Why is that not "political"?
But this is TMP. Consistency is not what we signed up for.

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP16 May 2018 1:43 p.m. PST

@28mm Fanatik

There seems to be a peculiar logic that if you make outrageous or untrue allegations about your enemy, you some how score points. The name calling, the silly and clearly untrue stories have been used against a raft of enemies of the West. Even in this thread you read them.

I think it much more useful and more mature to coldly and logically assess your enemies.

Kim is no fool. Hie weakness is the unstable and ailing country he leads. His strength iis his ability to play the tune of his choice and make the West dance to it.

As for being " un American", I certainly have my criticisms. I think a friend is remiss if he doesn't point out damaging flaws in his friends.

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP16 May 2018 2:06 p.m. PST

Winston

Apples to oranges. I never directed those words at anyone in specific except in general to anyone who always finds a way to blame the US for all their woes. If you weren't one of those myopic US haters who sides with anyone that opposes the US then there was no reason for you to feel included in that category.

You and Begemot, on the other hand, made extreme-right implications directly about ME and … well, you know full well what you did and how you are trying to spin it and project now.

But, even though you rushed to add your John Hancock to the fascism accusation (thanking Begemot for what he said, and then adding the McCarthy quote), only Begemot got hit by the Editors. You seem to be Teflon these days, so enjoy it.

Dan

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP16 May 2018 2:31 p.m. PST

You're a dab hand at "I didn't REALLY say what I said."
You're good at it.

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP16 May 2018 2:40 p.m. PST

If you two are through throwing accusations at each other, can we get back to the topic?

Kim, definitely anti- American, has labelled Trump's top advisor for the peace/ disarmament talks as " repugnant".

Clever move. Either Bolton is removed ( score points for N Korea) or the talks are cancelled ( score beau coup points for N Korea). The OP labelled the US as " such ( expletive deleted) suckers". I' m waiting to see if they have the nous to get out of this one as it seems they have been sucker- punched.

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP16 May 2018 2:45 p.m. PST

Winston

This was my exact quote on that post's PS: "This whole thing is a joke, an intentional distraction tactic to gain something bigger somewhere else. But, of course, the anti-Americans among us will say it failed because of us, because we didn't humor him enough."

And everyone can read the rest of that "15 May 2018 1:27 p.m. PST" post for themselves.

I know what I said and I know what I meant, and I know that it was a very general statement. But you guys took it way beyond those, and then directed your "fascism" claims specifically at me. Those are the facts. Enough said.

I have nothing else to say to you on this matter.

Dan

USAFpilot Supporting Member of TMP16 May 2018 8:39 p.m. PST

"The US would be "prepared to work with North Korea to achieve prosperity on the par with our South Korean friends", he [SoS] told reporters on Friday."
-from the BBC linked article

So, in other words, … just words, not actions. Our top diplomat saying exactly the type of things you would expect him to say. Nothing has changed between the US and North Korea and this entire thread is "much ado about nothing". Oh, I almost forgot, there was one thing that changed. Our President was able to secure the release of 3 of our citizens from North Korea.

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