"Battles in Middle Earth: Not Enough Data" Topic

robert piepenbrink once observed:

…in my experience fantasy authors almost never give you the detail you'd want for a decent scenario&hellip Most of the exceptions are actually stealing historical battles. Of course, this is usually true of medieval chroniclers as well.

So all my fantasy and medieval battles are just interesting battles, not attempts to recreate either Bosworth or the Battle of Five Armies. I don't have the information.

TMP link

Do you agree?

Yes. The battles are rarely their focal point. Since most fantasy is "heroic", authors use the majority of the narrative to describe the actions of a few individuals, not whole armies.

I remember as a youth in the late 80s and early 90s my local library had an illustrated book on the battles of Middle Earth. It must have been a lot of conjecture but it included descriptions of the battles and some cool artwork. It may have even included conjectural orders of battles. From what I remember of the battles was that the good guys were always on the verge of defeat until a timely and unexpected reinforcement arrIced to turn the tide. I wish I could remember the book's name.

"A Tolkien Beastiary"?

There was a hex-map-and-counters game of the War of the Ring that I played back in the 1970s. I think SPI published it, but I don't remember now. Anyway, I just assumed that it was a meticulously researched and accurate as the other hex-map-and-counters I was playing.

Enough for me.

"There was a hex-map-and-counters game .."

SPI did publish it:

link

I still have a copy.

I recreate Tolkien battles all the time. I use the texts and The Atlas of Middle-Earth for that. I really don't need an order of battle or meticulous study; I only need my imagination and a good "feel" for what Tolkien was imagining when he wrote it. I can determine my own force makeup, significant terrain elements, and initial force positions from there. The results are quite satisfactory to me. If someone else believes the terrain and forces differ in significant ways, well, that's fine too— I don't assume that I am right and he is wrong, or even try to argue the same. The truth is, we both really can be "right," as the battle is a thing of fiction and imagination, subject to the interpretation of the reader (and the gamer). If it makes for a fun battle, that's the only thing that really counts.

Honestly, if you can't game a Tolkien battle in a satisfactory manner, you might want to give your imagination engine a thorough overhaul!

Well said Parzival!

Tolkien was a terrible old teaser of wargamers, giving us some quite detailed descriptions of units, but never quite doing the same for the entire force(s).

Gate guards of Gondolin cool but parttial
Bo5A – sure 500 dwarves and 100 elf spearmen but how about the elf bowmen and the Lakemen, let alone the goblins & wolves?
Fords of the Isen – very detailed on the Rohirrim, very patchy on Saruman's army
Pelennor Fields – outcompanies & Rohan great, Minas Tirith forces frustratingly vague, the enemy even more so.

but as Parzival says – great opportunity to use your creativity to put together a force that seems appropriate and will result in a good game.

Stating the obvious here, fantasy is not history. If you approach a medieval battle the same way you would a fantasy battle, Then all you have is a fantasy battle fought with historical figures. These are two different genres which need to be approached differently.

When in doubt … with Fantasy, Sci-fi, Sci-fantasy … make it up …

Exactly! It's fantasy, if you don't have the exact info then use what you like. Tolkien made all of this up out of his own mind. It is not based on realty. Make it up!

Just a correction, 1000 wood elf spearmen at Battle of Five Armies not 100 as I mis-typed above.

Rallynow, I think there are plenty of medieval & dark age battles where less information survives than Tolkien provided on his fictional conflicts. So the scenario design process could be similar.

We've used scenario OOBs from the old AH Panzerblitz, Panzerleader, etc. games for 6mm Sci-fi games. Just come up with what a Tiger I =, etc. in our 6mm Sci-fi inventory …

It is in the nature of all gamers to never be completely satisfied with any OOB information. We always want more.

Authors normally only put enough detail into any battle scenario as is needed to establish the scope of the conflict and what our heroes must overcome.

I can't speak to other authors, but I have always found Tolkien to be reasonably helpful in trying to tease out OOB info. Sometimes (Hornburg) he lays it out pretty well. Sometimes (assaults on Lorien and Erebor at the end of the 3rd age) he offers up almost nothing.

There are some instances where he provides info that can be used to infer other useful data. The classic example is the arrival of the southern fiefs at Minas Tirith. He lists groups of troops from this settlement or that (Ethir, Lamedon, Dol Amroth) by number and weaponry. In and of itself it isn't much help, but he indicates these are all tithes. The minimum that can be sent and still honor their obligation. From this we can deduce the number of troops left in Belfalas to face the threat of the Corsairs. With the exception of Imrahil's mounted knights you simply multiply the number listed by 9.

Ages ago I did an analysis of the Garrison of Minas Tirith. There are references sprinkled about, that, when added to some assumptions, yields an algebraic formula that can be used to track back to the MT start forces. It's been ages since I did it so I can't rattle off how I did it, but I think it came to 8 or 9 thousand.

And of course T mentions that the Pelennor Fields army of Sauron amounts to half his total. And we know that at the Morannon Sauron sortied with, if memory serves, 70000 orcs and men, so the combined forces deployed across Cair Andros, vs Lorien, vs Dale and vs Erebor is 70000 less than he sent against Minas Tirith.

Imperfect, to be certain, but it's at least enough to help steer our guesstimations.

Also the Christopher Tolkien compendia of his father's notes can be of use. In re the Oliphaunts at Minas Tirith. There were 50.

Very interesting on the 50 Oliphants KPinder, I'd not seen that before – is it in one of the HoMEs?

Morannon iirc is described as 'ten times and more than ten times' the 7000 (or 6500 or so after detachments). To me this says 130,000 plus, ie 65,000 and 65,000 plus a few thousand, but admit its ambiguous.

I ran into this wikipedia page link claiming that Tolkien used specific terms to describe specific sizes of forces ie hosts, companies etc. I think its a bit of a stretch but maybe there's something in it. What do you all reckon?

I seem to remember a reference to specifically 50. A quick perusal of what I have yielded a passage from HoLotR The End of the Third Age, HM p.50, "there had been 50 of them at least, but all were dead,…"

I've never wanted to refight Middle Earth battles. I want to fight battles inspired by them. So I have enough details.

andy

Do You Use "Historically Accurate" Middle Earth Armies?" Topic

There is no such thing as "Historically Accurate" fantasy armies. History and fantasy are exact opposites.