""Arrogant American Gamers"?" Topic

One of our members writes:

What's with the extremely vocal selection of xenophobic arrogant american gamers who diss everything and everyone not home grown?

OK, I'm open for discussion. Make your case, show your sources, and keep the discussion respectful.

I've played as many Brit and French games as US ones-this-has to be a issue.

This is just as stupid as the thread about U.K. gamers. There is no "other side", in this environment we are all, first and foremost, Wargamers, nationality is irrelevant.

'Please don't break forum rules, John. I have just as much right to discuss this as anyone else. '

That is a point that I have clearly stated previously. However, in my view many of your comments also break forum rules – but your's aren't moderated… that adage 'with power comes responsibility'… you are taking a lot of self-inflicted flack at the moment. Not going to look for specific quotes – TMP breakfast shutdown getting close… but the old 'think before you post' adage should probably apply more to you that to 'ordinary' members. TMP may be doing OK , but it's still costing you money.

"There is no "other side", in this environment we are all, first and foremost, Wargamers, nationality is irrelevant."

Exactly.

Hmm. Wrong faults in this context. I'm not sure the average kid in a US hobby shop even realizes that GW and Battlefront aren't US firms.

But if I needed six gamers with no feel for historical context, I'd start looking among my compatriots.

The average wargamer anywhere is a pretty decent fellow: he's put time and study into his hobby instead of buying a video game off a rack. and the historical miniatures gamer has gone pretty far out on that limb. I would agree that at the extremes differences between national cultures are more evident, but how much does this have to do with miniatures?

…but how much does this have to do with miniatures?

I wanted to be fair to the original poster and let him make his case, but he seems to have retreated back into his shell.

Not retreated into shell but some of us have to work for a living.

There does seem to be a vocal minority who get overexcited about different rule sets – but most of these seem to be American rule sets so…..

….I don't really recognise the premise of the OP. Some of the nicest gamers I've come into contact with are American.

I like frosting.
But not fondant. That stuff is just nasty.

As a type 2 diabetic, I hate fondant. If I am going to kill myself by eating cake, I want frosting. Fondant is not worth dying for. In addition, I stay away from all artificial sugar substitutes. If I have to die, I would rather die from a sugar coma than from cancer.

Kevin – I did the haematology for this study:

link

A minor role, but it's my claim to fame.

Fondant is gross. But, at the risk of creating a thread war, I also find buttercream frosting sickly sweet and fatty on the palate. I much prefer whipped cream frosting.

Its interesting that the beginning of Von Trinkenessen's post was not included in this thread. It was: "I would answer you Bill What's with the extremely vocal selection of xenophobic arrogant american gamers who diss everything and everyone not home grown?"

The post was a sarcastic response to a thread that should not have existed.

This hot on the heels of the British post is one of the most inane, intentionally inflammatory, ridiculous trollings I have ever seen.

What good is it? What does it add to the hobby.

Its a childish defense of an earlier equally childish thread.

As I said about the title of a more recent thread …

"Snobbish British and Arrogant Yanks" that sounds like an awesome title for a book about conjoined twins with different citizenships!

Dan
PS. Or the name of my own personal republic, if I ever become ruler of some nation populated mostly by people of those two groups. :)
TMP link

The post was a sarcastic response to a thread that should not have existed.

Sarcasm? That's your opinion. I didn't judge him, I simply brought the question up for review.

This hot on the heels of the British post is one of the most inane, intentionally inflammatory, ridiculous trollings I have ever seen.

Why? These people exist. I wanted to know how widespread of a problem this is.

What good is it? What does it add to the hobby.

Understanding the hobby community is an end in itself, no?

Its a childish defense of an earlier equally childish thread.

The only one being childish here is you, my friend.

Haha. Childish would be deleting loads of people's comments!

Childish would be deleting loads of people's comments!

Sometimes, it's nice to be The Editor. I have a little more power to keep a discussion "on the tracks."

20thmaine approves of the posting by General Disaster

Doesn't anyone want to roll any dice anymore?

Or pick a card….any card….even an activation card….

Or…

….oh…..well…..

Arrogance goes both ways. After being on the design and selling side of the hobby for over 40 years, I can say that I have run into it everywhere. It can be publishing companies, play test groups and players in different parts of the country, different nationalities and the list goes on. Our hobby is full of well educated people who continue to learn with their own research to a level far exceeding acedemics. As a result our hobby is full of experts.
The arrogant attitude is not a national trait but an individual one.
You have to understand that and live with it if you plan to stay in and enjoy the hobby.

Rudy, what you say is true, but I believe there are also some differences.

If you do a Google for British and anti-Americanism, you get a surprising amount of hits – including comedian Steven Fry, who said "Britain's anti-American attitude is snobby and horrific." (He then went on to say they are generally wonderful people, and in a large country you always get some nutcases!)

So, if there is some amount of anti-Americanism among the population, then you would expect to see some among the wargaming community there as well.

From the American side, there doesn't seem to be any corresponding "anti-British" feeling. If you try a Google for United States and anti-British, you get hits about WWI… and more hits about British anti-Americanism!

So I think that's why there's not a reciprocal situation here. There's no wargaming sites that brand themselves as "American", there's no forum I know of where American wargamers gather to put down British wargamers.

Now maybe there's something lurking beneath the surface. Gamers sometimes like to debate about the merits of "British style" rules and "American style" rulesets – is that an indirect way of expressing a form of chauvinism? (Personally, based on past discussion on TMP, I doubt there is such a thing in reality as British or American styles in game design.)

Or there has been some talk lately, with some saying that TooFatLardies should rebrand themselves. Is that American imperialism in the hobby? Or does TooFatLardies overt 'Britishness' cost them in terms of international sales?

Bill, I am having trouble seeing where the anti-Americanism is coming from that you see. Please cite where.

WWS and LAF seem to steer clear of any of the contemptuous discussion that pops up here. Perhaps its just an statistically insignificant number of typical complainers or haters. I just don't see the benign chauvinism you speak of. If its benign why would you get bent? Who cares? There are arrogant people everywhere.

I don't know what to say about the disgruntled Frother's folks. I looked once and decided it was essentially a dead forum other than people going to bitch about TMP. I don't know what they are saying other than its sure to be mean spirited. Why bother looking? I know it hurts to be bullied but you have got to learn to forgive them in spite of the cruelty. I wish you well with that and remember to forgive yourself of any failures, its makes forgiving others easier.

God Bless.

Sometimes i think this is Frothers and Bill is one of them, he deletes, stifles, doghouses other people, yet quite happily throws stones into the pond, and chuckles as he says, its my forum, rules do not apply to me.

You also seem to have a thing about TooFatLardies, going on about their 'overt' Britishness,i think you have the problem, in two posts you've managed to pee off more people,than a year of Frothers. Well Done.

You may not see overtly American sites because the default assumption is that all sites are American, unless specifically badged otherwise. It's like the marketplace on TMP. I have given up looking there because 99% of stuff is CONUS only.

And it matters, because for example EU sites have very different legal protections and standards for privacy, cookies, data protection and so on.

it seems to me to be patently obvious that this, and the associated thread about British wargamers, should be removed. More importantly, they should never have existed in the first place.

I fail to see how starting such conversations can be seen as anything other than asking for trouble (I am trying hard to avoid the term trolling here Bill) and as an advertiser I am very concerned that a site where I promote my business should see such behaviour not only accepted by you as editor, but actually initiated by you as, apparently, part of some bizarre argument with people who you have on another web site.

Please stop this nonsense and allow us all to get back to wargaming, whatever our nationality.

Richard
TooFatLardies

I think Toofatlardies 'overt' Britishness is a selling point rather than a detractor, but then I'm British so I suppose I would say that. However, if I were to pick up a set of rules that are specifically for the North American theatre such as AWI or ACW I would expect them to be overtly American in their flavour and most probably written by an American as well. I wouldn't have a problem with that at all. Toofatlardies are fond of punning British tv programmes and characters in their titles, but that gives them a certain charm all of their own, and it is original.Perhaps our sense of humour doesn't always travel well?? However,
if people are so thin skinned that they have a problem with the nationality of whomsoever writes rulesets then we have a serious problem here which goes way beyond wargaming.

I live just South of Boston in Massachusetts, if anybody wants to game, I don't care if you are English or an American, everybody is welcome. Let's game😀

"Britain's anti-American attitude is snobby and horrific."

This is not a subject taught in British schools so if it exists at all it must originate from a different quarter.

Stephen Fry? Stephen Fry! He's an entertainer (to some, some of the time) and NOT the heartbeat of Britain.

Your British-TMPers have responded earlier in your other recent posts in large numbers to dispel Stephen Fry's assertion and answer your question. You SHOULD be assured by now.

I agree with breaking wind in public. To not do so is bad for your health…………

I don't think I've ever been in the dawghouse. Think that may change…

I don't think I've ever been in the dawghouse. Think that may change…

Me too…
You've forgotten the paddies by the way.

Where are the indignant posts from non-US citizens to complain that America is a continent and not a country?

Bill, I am having trouble seeing where the anti-Americanism is coming from that you see. Please cite where.

I already have.

WWS and LAF seem to steer clear of any of the contemptuous discussion that pops up here.

Why bring them up? What 'contemptuous' discussion?

Perhaps its just an statistically insignificant number of typical complainers or haters.

Perhaps. That is why I brought the subject up for discussion. I hope you are right.

I just don't see the benign chauvinism you speak of. If its benign why would you get bent? Who cares? There are arrogant people everywhere.

I'm not 'bent'. Bemused, perhaps. Curious, certainly.

I don't know what to say about the disgruntled Frother's folks. I looked once and decided it was essentially a dead forum other than people going to bitch about TMP. I don't know what they are saying other than its sure to be mean spirited. Why bother looking? I know it hurts to be bullied but you have got to learn to forgive them in spite of the cruelty. I wish you well with that and remember to forgive yourself of any failures, its makes forgiving others easier.

The only reason Frothers was brought up was because examples were asked for.

You also seem to have a thing about TooFatLardies, going on about their 'overt' Britishness,i think you have the problem, in two posts you've managed to pee off more people,than a year of Frothers. Well Done.

Where do you get that from? I've long been a fan of TooFatLardies. I own almost all of their rulesets.

it seems to me to be patently obvious that this, and the associated thread about British wargamers, should be removed. More importantly, they should never have existed in the first place.

It is not obvious to me, so you will have to explain. And the other thread is about some British wargamers, not all British wargamers.

I fail to see how starting such conversations can be seen as anything other than asking for trouble (I am trying hard to avoid the term trolling here Bill) and as an advertiser I am very concerned that a site where I promote my business should see such behaviour not only accepted by you as editor, but actually initiated by you as, apparently, part of some bizarre argument with people who you have on another web site.

This has nothing to do with any argument with Frothers. I was asked to cite an example of this behavior, and I did.

Actually Bill you've yet to provide any concrete proof of your assertions at all.

As you've been told by just about everyone on the board, of a variety of nations.

So above you said entertained the suggestion that the issue you believe may exist could actually be a statistically insignificant occurrence.

Enough posters from both sides of the Atlantic and, I think, beyond, have told you exactly that. So given this "flood" of evidence here and in the companion thread, are you now willing to accept that suggestion?

Actually Bill you've yet to provide any concrete proof of your assertions at all.

I've given you two concrete examples, and I have the evidence I see every day as the moderator of TMP. That is sufficient for me.

So above you said entertained the suggestion that the issue you believe may exist could actually be a statistically insignificant occurrence.

Enough posters from both sides of the Atlantic and, I think, beyond, have told you exactly that.

I don't believe I said anything of the kind. The problem exists. The question was: how widespread is it?

So given this "flood" of evidence here and in the companion thread, are you now willing to accept that suggestion?

Would you be willing to accept the proposition that a small number of extreme chauvinists can have an influence across the hobby? Haven't you noticed people being targeted, on our forum and elsewhere, simply for being American?

Doesn't that trouble you?

Bill, there are people in every country who are outside the norm. It appears as though you have bad experiences with some UK wargamers. I think you are letting them cloud your judgement. TMP should be a forum to bring wargamers together not divide them. I'm not noticing a lot of support from anywhere for your point of view. Time to build bridges perhaps?

"Would you be willing to accept the proposition that a small number of extreme chauvinists can have an influence across the hobby?"

That chauvanists exist, yes, of course. One would be an idiot if one didn't. They exist in all walks of life, in all hobbies, groups and pursuits. In respect of the questions posed here and the target for your ire I'd question the "influence" bit however.

"Haven't you noticed people being targeted, on our forum and elsewhere, simply for being American?"

Bill, over the last few years we've seen people hounded because they are women, because they are veterans, because they haven't served, because their position on the political spectrum don't match those of some portions of the membership, because they are women, because they are European, because they are British, because they are "snowflakes", and for a whole host of reasons.

"Would you be willing to accept the proposition that a small number of extreme chauvinists can have an influence across the hobby? Haven't you noticed people being targeted, on our forum and elsewhere, simply for being American?"

But here's the thing, since your statement above zeroes in your concern being Frother's and Legion4. Do you really believe that Frothers has an influence across the hobby? Would you ascribe such power to that site? If yes then I'm amazed. If you want to worry about power and influence then there are other sites and publications that I'd be much more interested /concerned about, such as here or the pages of glossy wargames magazines such as Miniature Wargames and others.

I said

"So above you said you entertained the suggestion that the issue you believe may exist could actually be a statistically insignificant occurrence."

To which you replied:

"I don't believe I said anything of the kind."

Just to clarify, Private Snafu said"

"Perhaps its just an statistically insignificant number of typical complainers or haters."

To which you replied:

"Perhaps. That is why I brought the subject up for discussion. I hope you are right."

So it looked to me at least as though you were prepared to accept that was the proposition.

…the target for your ire…

Where are you imagining this "ire" from? I said I was pensive, which means:

engaged in, involving, or reflecting deep or serious thought

No ire.

Just saying how its coming across

Wow – what a fascinatingly silly set of discussions here and and the related thread on the "wargaming in the UK" board.

I spend a lot of time in both counters and really don't see a difference in gaming styles or the gamers themselves – Some like "historically accurate", some like "fun oriented". and there seems to be a similar distribution fun gamers(99%) and jerks(1%).

The differences I do so is that UK has a different structure for formal gaming event (cons) – where there are more events but shorter in duration vs here in the US.

Norman D. Landings,

Thank you for sending me the link concerning how to reverse type 2 diabetes. I will certainly give it a try. That is why I love the miniatures page, because people on it can be helpful and kind. I am happy to see that you have not fallen for the bait. Thanks again for sending me a link to the article.

Kevin

Why is it Some People only want to hear from Americans when they are in trouble, Believe me the whinning we do is much less harmless than when we stop whinning. By the way if you don't speak German or Russian your welcome.

Kevin C wins

You've now apparently banned a number of British advertisers which affects the level of service you can provide to your customers.

Why do you spread these lies?