"Wargaming: "A British Hobby?"" Topic

I wonder if this just a symptom of a wider problem. Not particular to TMP or Frothers, but to our society as a whole. I don't want to be over-dramatic; however there is a feeling of people being angry for and at anything, all the day long. Populism is again on the rise, both in the Left and the Right. Politicians wave the flag to rally behind them a citizenship that looks at a bleak future. Violence in forums is just an outlet to the pent-up aggression that boils inside us, just waiting the proper stimuli to provoke an explosion.

It's not British or Americans being true to their stereotypes. It is a bunch of angry middle-aged men shouting each other to blow steam off.

This is the third thread on TMP that I've come across in the last three days that has had me shaking my head in bewilderment and going 'Why???' Actually I said something else but it would be bleeped out.
Just to add to the score on the running total, I too have never come across this phenomenon in UK gamers.

Bill, perhaps if you don't want to get labelled with the tag 'anti-British' you should stop making up ridiculous anti-British threads?

Just a thought.

And perhaps you shouldn't be so defensive about a discussion which has never been anti-British?

Truth is Bill, like any group we have our fair share of over opinionated, bigotted brain dead morons who will start an argument about anything. I have seen equally fine examples amongst other national groups on here!

This thread's a shambles.
You know who could have settled this (non)issue with ruthless efficiency? Nazis, that's who.
Let's get some Nazis all up in here, take care of business.

Well done, Norm.

Both amusing & it reminds us of what began the "Massacre of the Innocents".

Truth is Bill, like any group we have our fair share of over opinionated, bigotted brain dead morons who will start an argument about anything. I have seen equally fine examples amongst other national groups on here!

I have seen individual cases from all nationalities and groups, but this case I've mentioned here is unique. I can't think of any other wargaming forums that emphasize their nationality, or a forum that supports such behavior.

Basileus66 and Volleyfire make apt comments, and Norman D Landings skewered it with zest.

SO MANY deleted posts every time I check in. Are they being deleted by the posters, or censored by the Editor(s)? How does anyone have the time to monitor all these forum threads anyway?

I suppose the topic is played out, both here and in the spinoff or related threads. Once the page count reaches three for any TMP debate, it's usually a bad sign anyway.

Editor methinks as I certainly didn`t, just not cricket, it`s all fake news :P

SO MANY deleted posts every time I check in. Are they being deleted by the posters, or censored by the Editor(s)?

The latter!

I couldn't believe it this morning when I logged on and saw how many were in the DH, my mouthful of tea nearly went over the computer screen. More threads, more red DELETED signs, never seen so many in such a short period of time on so many threads. This has spun into a car crash of epic proportions, and is very damaging for the image of TMP. Thank you Basileus66,and Piper909. I have to agree. Are the Editors on some kind of bonus or pay incentive scheme here? (that's meant as a joke btw)
It's getting so bad I'm afraid to voice an opinion or comment on virtually anything for fear of being DH'd. Trouble is, I read these threads, usually for the amusement, entertainment, mindless gratification, and sometimes education, but normally not for the Horror content. After looking on for a while you kind of get sucked in though and can't resist adding your tuppenceworth, and before you know it….oops.

Bill – when I saw this unfolding last night I thought to myself, this is clearly not a good thing. Irrespective of what had been said and by whom; starting this thread was rather antagonistic to our English friends and I'm not convinced that it was at all necessary? 24 hours later, and despite several reasoned calls for its deletion, this catastrophic thread is still going! For the benefit of the forum and the hobby – you need to let this go as promptly as possible and we (or at least those of us who still remain) can hopefully all move on.

I'm British and like Americans.

Yes badwargamer, but is that fried or grilled?

It's a good job my USN colleagues on my current deployment are not joining in on this.

Volley fire.. couldn't eat a whole one though.

Michael Stockin – Was really bent out of shape because TMP standardizes on American spelling. Started his own website that emphasizes being UK-based and on UK time.

I'm on TWW as often as here and I have never seen one post that emphasizes "Britishness" and if the spelling or time was GMT or added the odd 'u', I could not care less and never really noticed.

I have seen Michael absolutely quash a very mild snark about TMP and I would challenge anyone to find a single post on that site attacking another gamer, firm or other site. I think that is an admirable model.

I am "here" only because I clicked on the DH icon and saw how many are "in" there. TMP Talk was the place to go for first answers. And this thread is the cause? It seems like it.

Having inhabited the DH many times, in past guises and even a couple of times as "Ace", I can say that the DH is "THE" peculiar feature of TMP that I have never understood. But then, Bill is a peculiar fellow that I have never understood.

I am just glad that he runs this website/forum. If people will leave because of Bill, they are even more mysterious to me than Bill is. Take the Editor personally? Whatever for? Judge the man to be remiss all you want, he is NOT the website, he only runs it. People here are the website. He's just one among many. He has singular powers of control, so we all have to respect that singular difference between him and any of us. But otherwise, as so often said, you can take from TMP what you choose, and ignore the rest. I recommend selecting only that which you find pleasant. Unless, of course, your own "pensive mood(s)" require that you occasionally stick pins in yourself, in order to enjoy yourself. In which case, we don't really have anything to talk about. Argue what color of cheese the moon is made of. Get DHed for it because you can't restrain yourself from becoming personal, etc.

I only commented on this thread because I found myself here, saw a self made problem, and decided to tell everyone to go off and do something more productive. I will now follow my own advice………….

I'm on TWW as often as here and I have never seen one post that emphasizes "Britishness"…

Maybe you never looked at TWW's 'About Us' page? Unless it has been changed recently, it definitely makes a point about being a U.K.-centric wargaming website.

You are being overly sensitive.

I looked, all they say is: "A wargaming site ‘edited' in UK times which is available 24 hours a day, 365 days a year."

You may think that is an subtle attack on you but really? They are competing with you. They are offering features that are different than TMP.

I will grant that I did look at Michael's FB and there is probably some subtle animosity there but nothing that I would rate as more than rivalry.

So the 'evidence' for this is TWW (which I had never even heard of) saying they are edited in the UK and Frothers being a bunch of s as usual.

Honestly seems like this isn't really about any supposed (and totally unsupported) personal belief about British snobbery and really just the mutual hatred between Bill and Frothers.

Oh and the American arrogance thing is a widely held belief but you can chalk that up to the US being so powerful, Americans could be the politest, happiest, kindest people on the planet and most of the world would still consider you arrogant s, that's just human nature.

In the "Arrogant Americans" thread you said entertained the suggestion that the British issue you believe may exist could actually be a statistically insignificant occurrence.

Enough posters from both sides of the Atlantic and, I think, beyond, have told you exactly that. So given this "flood" of evidence here and in the companion thread, are you now willing to accept that suggestion?

You may think that is an subtle attack on you but really? They are competing with you. They are offering features that are different than TMP.

I will grant that I did look at Michael's FB and there is probably some subtle animosity there but nothing that I would rate as more than rivalry.

Why do you keep making this as some kind of attack on TMP???

You simply make my point for me. TWW positions itself, relative to TMP, as a UK-centric hobby website. Period. End.

Lol. I have no problem being called arrogant at times. But I can see why someone wouldn't want to be called snobbish at any time.

I guess I still have a few remaining standards. :)

Dan
TMP link

So given this "flood" of evidence here and in the companion thread, are you now willing to accept that suggestion?

Let me ask you a question: Do you believe Legion4 would be such a target on our forums if he weren't American?

Yes.

Bill it appears that it is some kind of attack on you and TMP because you are acting in a disproportionate way to people assuring you that your premise is wrong. You asked a question, everyone said, no this is not so. In spite of this, you insist, regardless of reasonable evidence and testimony, to the contrary.

Your pensive mood has created an unnecessary wreckage and I confidently believe there is no "small but vocal minority of British wargamers who resent sharing their hobby with anyone else."

There is a small but vocal minority that resent TMPs success. They think it should fail because of its dated functionality, bugs, & inconsistent moderation.

Bill it appears that it is some kind of attack on you and TMP because you are acting in a disproportionate way to people assuring you that your premise is wrong. You asked a question, everyone said, no this is not so. In spite of this, you insist, regardless of reasonable evidence and testimony, to the contrary.

Your pensive mood has created an unnecessary wreckage and I confidently believe there is no "small but vocal minority of British wargamers who resent sharing their hobby with anyone else."

Then we simply disagree. No wreckage anywhere. This is just a discussion.

There is a small but vocal minority that resent TMPs success. They think it should fail because of its dated functionality, bugs, & inconsistent moderation.

Perhaps, but that's another premise for another day.

"Do you believe Legion4 would be such a target on our forums if he weren't American?"

Is he a target on the forums here?

Bill, over the last few years we've seen people here hounded because they are women, because they are veterans, because they haven't served, because their position on the political spectrum don't match those of some portions of the membership, because they are women, because they are European, because they are British, because they are "snowflakes", and for a whole host of reasons.

Is he a target on the forums here?

Yes, and I believe he's a deliberate target of certain people because of where he was born.

He's attacked on these forums, here on TMP? or are you talking about elsewhere?

TWW positions itself, relative to TMP, as a UK-centric hobby website. Period. End.

No. It doesn't. You choose to interpret it that way. Their About Us page says:

A wargaming site ‘edited' in UK times which is available 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

You see that as emphasising 'Britishness', when in fact it is an explanation that forum users can't expect to see editing or moderation at 8pm Pacific time, because that's 3am in Britain, and the editor will be asleep.

How do I know that's what it means? Because further down the page, in the Plans for the future section, it says:

When the site grows we want to hire an editor outside of the UK (perhaps in the USA or Australia) to enable us to offer more round the clock support.

Seeing those statements as an arrogant British attack on any nation, website or person smacks of narcissism and paranoia.

Is he a target on the forums here?

Yes, and I believe he's a deliberate target of certain people because of where he was born.

Very clever trap you set here.
I visit the ONE site where he is attacked "over there", and often post there in an ankle biting sort of way. Like a Jack Russell terrier with the mailman.
So I KNOW why he is attacked "on that site".
It has nothing to do with where he was born.
And here is where your clever little trap comes in. If I were to say why, that would be a classic TMP "personal attack". Not gonna do it. I'm not sticking my neck out for nobody. Let alone the Lads at ***^.

Going back to the original point about there being a minority of British wargamers who resent sharing their hobby with anyone else.

I, personally, have never encountered this before and consider wargaming to be a hobby enjoyed across the world and also have never considered it to be 'owned' by the UK or any other country.

I go to a club in London, The Exiles – link and whenever I see on TMP a post about a visitor coming to London (either a UK or international visitor) I add a post inviting them for a game at The Exiles. Really interesting to get an insight of the gaming in their part of the world, whilst of course letting them take part in the game we are playing topped of with a couple of drinks (we game in a pub basement).

Ezza

Let me ask you a question: Do you believe Legion4 would be such a target on our forums if he weren't American?

Ah Bill … I was trying to stay out of this to not inflame the situation. As the mention of my name causes the angry mob to pick up the their torches and pitch forks again.

And YES, no matter where in the world I came from the US, UK, Russia, Luxemburg, or even off world from Mars. My "outspoken" "take" on things, opinions, etc., would have made me be a target.

MANY of my critics are Americans. But based on the current situation in the US it seems most Americans can't agree on anything. But the other guy is wrong and clearly a moron. Just turn on the news if anyone is in doubt.

I even PM'd you that some posts by the mob are only stirring the pot, but you ignored my suggestion. But which some here forgot … It's your show. If they don't like the host, they can change the channel. And as was see, some have. You don't like manager of BK go to KFC. But by continuing to yell at him because you don't the chicken sandwich. Really is not doing anything but to inflame the situation.

And may I add since my dead body has been reanimated … Since all the time I've been on TMP. It seem the more liberal, SJW, fantasy fascist hunters[your words not mine but I agree with that term !], etc.

If you say you don't like Iran food you are a racist. And hater of all from the region.

Or I like Russian dressing well you are obviously a supporter of Stalin and everything he did and stands for.

But I do like Chinese food, so it is clear to all the PC, SJW, etc. I'm a strong supporter of Mao.

Over reacting ? Some of my critics should look in the mirror. But I've noticed with some here. You are entitled to an opinion, but if it does not agree with them. Well you a terrible fascist etc. !

And no matter what I said to start the fire storm with the PC, SJW, revisionist history crusaders. I thought it incorrectly in was a hypothetical. I don't have a time machine to bring the "Nazis" into the 20th Century. And have them lead the assault on Mosul or Raqqa.

Or do I have the ability to round up theses Neo-Nazis, which I find repugnant, etc. To attack the terrorists like the equally repugnant Daesh/ISIS, AQ, BH, AS, the Taliban, etc. And have listed those so I would not be call intellectually lazy, etc.

Is he a target on the forums here?

Bill, over the last few years we've seen people here hounded because they are women, because they are veterans, because they haven't served, because their position on the political spectrum don't match those of some portions of the membership,

Very good point, IMO. But from my standpoint it seems I have a big red X on my back. That says Free Fire Zone … Aim Here.

Yes, and I believe he's a deliberate target of certain people because of where he was born.

Well yes, but I've born in OH and have been attacked by TMP members from e.g. CA, MA, etc. As well as Western Euros etc. I pretty much PO many people from many location equally. Kind of like "Equal Opportunity", which let me make my position clear on that before the fascist hunters, etc. come out of their lairs. I Totally Support. My decade in the military demonstrated that in that case the only "color" of anyone's skin was OD Green.

He's attacked on these forums, here on TMP? or are you talking about elsewhere?

Well by some on that other site whose name will not be mentioned. But no one needs to doubt what my take on those type. Which is no different than to those types here.

And as I have said before, it's easy to talk smack/ on the phone or on the net. Because you can hide behind the electronic media.

However, I may be old crippled, have cataracts, hearing aids, over weight, etc. But if some of those types have said some of those things to my face. I'd hit them with my crutch !

Albeit, I can't help but think how "useful" these types might be when fighting terrorism. Deash … AQ … Taliban … AS … BH, etc., … vs. Neo-Nazis. Don't get me wrong, Nazis are reprehensible, horrible, etc., etc. But so are the terrorists, IMO …

Rakkasan … you quotes me on another thread but only the first sentence. And no mention of the rest : "Don't get me wrong, Nazis are reprehensible, horrible, etc., etc. But so are the terrorists, IMO …"

The you must be watching a lot of news, that is the way they report quotes. old that fit their narrative.

And it was clear to me … but obviously not to others that was a hypothetical. And in the back of my mind but sadly didn't say it clearly. I was thinking about a small unit action war game of those two heinous fanatical "groups" going at it. But really I'd think something like that on a site about wargaming ? Who would think such a thing ?!?!

And even though I served in the same Rgt years before you did. I'm sure things have changed since then. But as young stupid 2LT. The "crusty" old Senior NCOs wearing combat patches e.g. the 101, 1st CAV, etc. from serving in Vietnam. In many case 2 or more tours. They were mean hard, bitter, tough SOBs. They were not PC, etc.

And they made clear to me … the enemy who ever it is has to be engaged and killed in an "efficient and effective" [I'll use EnE here to ID that term from now on for brevity] manner. They were not a bunch of nice guys a lot of times.
Nor were many of the Senior officers that had a similar CV. They could be down right mean too …

It was the 101 and the Army. Not a debutant social. But of course you know all that. I just wanted to let the armchair QBs here know. That is the way things were. And there was no playing with toy soldiers. And if you disagree with anything I say that is OK. GIs often got into little disagreements. It is the nature of Alphas …. Wolves not sheep …

I get along with many other Vets, like Wolfhag, Just Jack, Foxweasel[A Brit !!!!], etc. I have a lot of respect for them. They "Know the Deal", IMO.

Scroll thru the TMP link … some of the arm chair QBs may learn something !

And some like Todd who I think was in the military. But he wouldn't admit it for some reason. I'm sorry to see he is not here to argue with me[Not a civil discussion]. Todd you said something about me – "Unbecoming" behavior for an Officer. Well I guess I could say the same about you being Locked Out ? From a site that is basically about playing with toys. But I've been Locked Out twice and DH'd dozens of times. So how is that "Unbecoming" ? Too bad you are not here to continue to argue.

aegiscg47

I'm always kind of fascinated by these posts on hobby and sports forums, as if the site is going to crash if they leave or that there will be some kind of populist revolt resulting in pleas to have them return. Within a few weeks most people won't even remember who they were and life will go on. There are literally thousands of hobby forums, blogs, etc., and if you don't like things on one you can easily move on to others.

+1

cfuzwuz

He no longer wants to be associated with the site, WOW, ain't he special! Don't know him, won't miss him. Screen door, arse, etc. Won't miss weasel either. I thought he was a jerk in the offending thread that got him dawghoused.

+1

Random thoughts, from in my brain-jelly:

Indeed …

*Did the Nazis EVER decisively 'win' a counter-insurgency campaign?
I get the impression that Partisan/Maquis/Resistance activity carried on undaunted throughout the war in pretty much every occupied territory.
Warsaw, maybe.

If you read my posts in more detail. In never advocated the Nazis should or could run an anti-insurgency campaign. Just a hypothetical as I already. Mentioned. And it should have been clear, that when I mentioned Neo-Nazis that it was not anything else.

*Weren't the SS units tasked with COIN a bunch of second-raters: Einsatzgruppen, Ordnungspolizei and various Hiwis/Chetnik/whatever hangers-on?

I was not referring to those types. But, e.g. the 17th SS PG Div. The Waffen SS. Some refer to those types as the fighting SS. And yes both they an even the Wehrmacht were responsible for war crimes. I thought with the level of knowledge and intelligence here that would be obvious, but I guess not. But of course like many as soon as you see the word Nazi you go for your pitch fork & torch to sly the monster that used that word.

And I've made it clear to the book smart, armchair QBs of TMP. That in no way do I support the Nazi ideology, and barbaric actions, etc. However to deny the Nazi German war machine was not efficient and effective in warfighting. When it came to most of the Euro militaries both in the West & East. At least for 2-3 years. To deny that is to deny the facts.

And while we are at it. There was even a chat about what. who, etc. is a Nazi ? Nazi Germany, Germans, Nazis, Waffen SS, Wehrmacht, etc. And I was called lazy and stupid by a war game designer who is no longer with us …

*Isn't it highly selective to laud the combined-arms prowess of a force which was essentially horse-drawn? And even during those early war successes, didn't the Wehrmacht do most of the heavy lifting? I seem to remember reading that the Heer had a poor opinion of SS combat-efficiency.

Worst case of Revisionist History I've ever seen Norm …

From everything I've read or been taught before after and during my time in the US ARMY. The Germans/Nazi Germans whatever. Were the only force in 1940 that truly understood the combined arms concept. With the result of most of Western Europe being under their occupation for 2-3. And the BEF being drive off the continent by the German/Nazi German forces.

And the measure of an ARMY is the efficiency and effectiveness of their Infantry Forces. And the Infantry is the most numerous of any branch in any army, generally. But you are a knowledgeable "historian" should know that … (?)

And yes they armor/mech forces of the Germans were the 10 Wehrmacht Panzer Divs, were the minority. But they were the key to the well know method of warfare know as the "Blitzkrieg", i.e. Lightening War. I.e. meaning striking very quickly. And I know you much know those 10 PZ Divs were primarily consisted of Armored Cars, Light & Main BTs, Halftrack/APC mounted Infantry.
As I am sure you know those vehicles can move much faster and farther than a man or even a horse.
And you should also know the vast majority of the German forces were not Waffen SS. And they had little to know armor generally.

But again I think you confusion like many, what I meant using the term Nazi. Which seems to upset Phil so much as he was a wargame designer and knowledgeable historian. Or so he said ?

And it was well known both the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS/SS were not very friendly. Which is not surprising as their ideologies were different. But you know that right ?

This thread's a shambles.
You know who could have settled this (non)issue with ruthless efficiency? Nazis, that's who.
Let's get some Nazis all up in here, take care of business.

And I take this is hyperbole … but can't help thinking you were trying to belittle me. And maybe even the "T" word ?

ochoin

This thread's a shambles.
You know who could have settled this (non)issue with ruthless efficiency? Nazis, that's who.
Let's get some Nazis all up in here, take care of business.

Well done, Norm.

Both amusing & it reminds us of what began the "Massacre of the Innocents".

I shudder to even mention your name. But you know what I said to Norm goes in your direction as well. And your as are being a bit dramatic as well. But I feel as Bill pointed out about weasel, both you and Rod was fighting a fantasy war against fascism on line one post at a time.

McKinstry

You know who could have settled this (non)issue with ruthless efficiency? Nazis, that's who.

thumbs up

You to McK, don't think you get it either.

You don't think I'd forget about you Haf did you ?

Not to second-guess Phil, but it is true that talking about Nazis in the context of tactical doctrine is a bit absurd: "Nazi tactics"--what were they?

I don't think I ever said Nazi-tactics. But like Phil I don't think many have been able to divine what the term Nazi is means. As you pointed out below. I was going to say wisely. But I'm not trying to be you buddy. And we are going to DQ for a Blizzard later.
Plus I'd take you comments to me to be an attack. Albeit kind of weakly, IMO.

Things get a little complicated when we talk about who the allies were fighting. Yes, "Germans" and "Nazis" were often used interchangeably during the war,at least popularly. But Allied leaders were at pains to differentiate the Nazi regime from the German people. That was in part for propaganda purposes.

This is generally all I can come close to agreeing with you. But still no DQ for you.

But of course there were many Germans who were not Nazis, just as there were Nazis who were not Germans.

Clear a true an obvious statement that all the historians/games here can agree …

It's hard to divine what's going on in people's heads (some more than others,maybe)

Well you could look in the mirror as others here can. And I generally don't want you or anyone else in my head. But I think some things I say should be obvious. But for many my comments are filtered thru the bias against me. As it is well know in many places I'm monster. <growl>

but if someone talks repeatedly about how effective "Nazis" were,because of their "efficiency" and "ruthlessnes", it's difficult not to take them at their word,especially when they include "Neo-Nazis" in the mix.

Really … ? We used those terms frequently in to describe any things. People, tactics, the mess cooks, etc. Was always found in reports and evals, etc. Do you know why I use the terms when talking about the Germans/Nazi-Germans, etc. whatever would satisfy you, Phil and Norm. [Wouldn't want to be called intellectually lazy again !]?

If the Germans/Nazis were not "EnE" i.e. well trained, lead, etc. ? Again … Why did they occupy most of Western Europe for 2-3s. And pushed the BEF off the continent. With BEF leaving All their equipment behind. Real historians I've studied laud that a an extremely acceptable feat in warfare up to that time.

Now if the Germans/Nazis were not that good at soldiering, but still overran Western Europe in record time. Literally destroying the Armies of Belgium, Holland, France and the UK. Then that says to me those arms were worse that the inefficient and in turn effective German/Nazi Forces.

Again sounds me like revisionist history or at least "sour grapes" by those armies that got "spanked and had their lunch money taken" … Some less than acceptable evaluation of the facts. To even deny the facts. Oh and when said "Neo-Nazis that should have made it clear that was hypothetical. As I have said in my other posts above.

Even if they later try to,um,weasel out of it by starting to talking about "Germans".

What ? Not even courageous enough to even mention my name ? It should be clear to you and many others here. I stopped using the word "Nazi". As it incensed the fantasy fascist hunters, P.C. academic intellectuals crusaders, revisionists history guys, etc. I could only take so many pitch fork holes & torch burns. Ouch !

If Legion4 sees himself as an "equal opportunities target" that just about finishes off Bill's argument

What ? I get attacked by many types of people from all over the world in appears, No ? Not only Brits, but Americans, Canadians, Aussies, Danes, etc., to name a few.

And let us not forget … and I totally agree with Bill …

While I encourage everyone to avoid 'being stupid' on the forums, we are all stupid from time to time.

basileus

L4:
"I did complain to Bill and I let Weasel know it."

I find slightly disturbing the idea of a grown man behaving like he is unable to cope with criticism. Maybe it is a sign of our times that we have devolved into childish behaviour because we are too soft to take a criticism like an adult.

Are you kidding !?
" unable to cope with criticism." … read the posts, I have many critics. And I'm still here.

we have devolved into childish behaviour

By letting both weasel & Bill know. They could remove an offensive photo at I saw as an insult to me as it had nothing to do with what I was hypothetically saying, IMO.

And if weasel saw my post he could have tried to remove that photo if he moved fast enough. As I have seen similar photos that Bill justifiably removed. But weasel as some others here could not control their urges to go fantasy fascist hunting again …

and if because we are too soft to take a criticism like an adult.

May be you can say that. But I'm taking the critiques and replying in turn. It's not my way to not put up a fight or generally be "weak". But you may think what you like. Everybody is entitled to any opinion.

However, as you correctly said,

Stupidity is a natural right for every person with an Internet connection.

Amen

Oh and Norm …

*Weren't the SS units tasked with COIN a bunch of second-raters:

No where did I mention COIN, I was talking about a hypothetical "Godzilla vs. King Kong. Two really bad guys trying to kill each.

In no way was I talking about COIN. As I was trained and instructed by the SF and Ranger qualified Soldiers who had only a few years before from SE Asia. About COIN, and dare I say, they didn't just read about. They are not armchair QBs.

Also if the historians here have noted the war against terrorists is not the traditional COIN. That we say in the ETO & PTO of WWII or SE Asia. E.g. Deash and the Taliban are more like a Light Infantry unit with limited vehicle, FA, armor support. Plus they have the ability to blend in with the locals. If by only taking them as human shields/hostages.

If you exam the e.g. the VC they didn't have the heavier equipment that Deash has. And I don't remember them ever using a human shields, etc.

basileus66

Sorry to say, but Rebecca is right.

I'm not sorry to say both of you are wrong, IMO.

Legion4 is making a lame argument.

I could say the same. Accusing me on mixing two separate tasks/missions … Regardless …

Fighting an insurgency is not easy. It takes a lot of moveable parts working together, and time. A lot of time. German anti-partisan tactics weren't particularly effective.

REALLY ? Have you emailed the US ARMY & Pentagon about this revelation ??!? Never heard that before in any of the classes we had in COIN !

Actually what Legion is doing is mixing anti-partisan (terrorist, if you are more comfortable) with small unit tactics.

No I'm not … 10 + years in 4 Infantry Bn in my distant youth. I very much know the difference. Please tell me if you have every lead or commanded an Infantry unit at Platoon or Company level. If you had you would not mix those two separate tasks. And the terrorists of today. and not the traditional insurgent of the past. I already addressed that in a post above.

And my contention is the same at squad, Plt or Company level regardless of who the enemy is, e.g. the current batch of terrorists, Nazis, VC/NVA, Russians, etc.

The basis for small unit actions are generally the same. Maneuver & Fire, Call in supporting fire, Fire & Movement, Combined Arms, etc.
And even the WWII Germans/Nazis understood those principles, much better is seemed to many of the other Euro's Armies dismay. Which put much of Europe under their occupation for 2-3 years. Not a good situation for France, Belgium, Denmark, etc. And the only thing that stopped the Germans from directly attacking the UK was the English Channel.

And a Mauser 98K or MG34/42 round will Kill you just as dead as 5.56mm round of the M16/M4 or 7.62x39 of an AK47.

Allied squads have shown again and again that in open combat no terrorist cell is a match for them;

Very well aware of that. The US have some of the best troops in the world.

of course, partisans know that too and try to even the playfield as much as they can, by ambushing the regulars with all kind of IEDs, snipers and trying to mix with bystanders to avoid being targeted by the soldiers.

Very much so, I know that.

Naturally a German SS -or Wehrmacht, for that matter- would have opened fire without regard for ROE; and yet the only result was that the particular tactic of mixing with civilian population wasn't used by WWII partisans. It didn't mean that other tactics were also discontinued.

That too is well known to me as I am sure many others here.

Actually, the best way to avoid being targeted by terrorists in their own countries is to provide them with no targets:

It is not that simple, as we see with the advent of 9/11, etc. that followed

quit places like Afghanistan or Irak, and let them rot.

IF it were only that easy.

If they threaten with overspilling out of their countries, then and only then, identify them, locate them and kill them or take them prisoners, as needed.

Again if that were only that easy. Not to mention the limited ROE that has to be used to limit Collateral Damage[CD], etc.

But the US/NATO are concerned about keeping CD as close to 0 as possible. Which again the is very difficult not matter how hard you try. The Germans/Nazis and Deash, etc., have 0 concern about that. They purposely targeted non-combatants. Which let me make myself clear that is a war crime and do not agree or advocate those actions. Before the fantasy fascists fighter get their pitch forks, etc. again.

lloydthegamer

Having just read the thread I'm stunned that Legion isn't the one DH. Nothing I read in Weasel's comments indicate a need to be disciplined. Legion on the other hand…..

jah1956

I would post a comment on this and state what I think about Legion 4 but I would go to the dawghouse. However I can state free Weasel.

Reread what I just posted here. If you still think the same … than it is you who have the problem of understanding where I stand, etc.

And I hope both of you understand I really don't care what you think about me or otherwise. I just wanted to make my thoughts known. Like it or not …

daler240D

Deleted by Moderator I have no regrets.

The regrets you should have is not knowing what Nazi really is. Nor understand what I'm saying …

Gunfreak

Free my Danish brother! In fact free all that are causalities in Legion nazi fantasies.

You may have Nazi fantasies, I don't or care. But I understand the historical realities. Just because I see the effectiveness of an enemy force. Does not mean I agree with their entire dogma, etc. However If you want to have a "fantasy" … figure out/war game why the Danish militarie's performance vs. the Germans/Nazis resulted in Denmark being occupied for @ 3 years … Here's a link to get you started. And research what Sun Tzu said about "Know your enemy" …

jclaxton

The Germans were so good they lost. Whats to learn?

Yes, that statement pretty much say you should do a bit more research.

And my god does anyone need to rant about their military service.

My mentioning my military serve should only reinforce veracity/weight of my comments. Do you actually have anything to say that has anything to really do with the discussion ?

As if it grants some all encompassing knowledge of all things military.

Reread the posts. I never said that. I only commented on some of the things I was trained in, had knowledge of and experience in some cases. That relates to the discussion. That only encompasses a small part of all military knowledge … You ?

I had an eight track in my 70 camaro, I'm wondering what special knowledge that grants me.

From what I can tell you may not have any special knowledge ? Like Harry Potter or something ? I think you should get a refund.

Lascaris

Classic TMP thread consisting of various individuals trying to pry rational thought from a bot repeating "I already made my point" over and over again.

p.s. I had an 8-track in a 1974 Plymouth Satellite therefore I am qualified to operate a nuclear reactor.

Like others here you really had nothing useful to add the conversion, IMO. And I'm pretty sure you know nothing about nucs. I do I had a little training in the ARMY. And you may not even be quailed to operates a '74 Plymouth ? You too may want to ask for a refund …

darthfozzywig

But just to be clear, the Editor is perfectly fine with the forum being used to promote the idea that Nazi skinheads magically become not only better soldiers, but also preferred soldiers in advance of American goals and ideals.

While you are in jail. You may what to read my posts here. Maybe you should have read my originals in the first place ? Your post here shows me you don't understand at all what I was saying. I don't advocate/promote Nazis in a way. What I said was a hypothetical.

With as I explained in my mind to be a possible skirmish wargame. IF you read my posts? The USA already has some of the best soldiers on the planet. I thought you know of my military background ? Why would I seriously advocate anything you said I did ?

And I agree with Bill's action here and why … Did you read this post of Bill's ? TMP link Maybe you should ?