"Grand Redoubt at Borodino" Topic

OK all you military engineering experts out there I've got some questions about the redoubt.
Why a double palisade at the rear of the redoubt. Why not just a single palisade? Why are the palisades of different heights? And how far apart are the two palisades?
Some paintings (not contemporary) show gabions in use at the embrasures. Were they used they used you think?

Thanks in advance for any input!

Regards,

John

What is your source for a "double palisade?" I would put little faith in the paintings.

Believe it is described as such in Duffy's "Borodino"

The source I'm using is "The Battle of Borodino" by Alexander Mikaberidze. He quotes Lieutenant Bogdanov who was in charge (along with Lieutenant Liprandi) of building the redoubt. The redoubt was surrounded by a ditch 7.3 meters wide by 3.1 meters deep.
"the opening in the rear was to be closed by a double palisade with two openings at the sides". The outer palisade was 8 feet high; the inner was 6.5 feet high.

This would seem to be a reliable source. He uses more contemporary Russian primary sources than I have ever seen.
Best Regards,

John

Wasn't the rear of the redoubt built on a down slope. The outer palisade could then be made of taller timbers but the tops could be lower if they down slope of the inner palisade.

I'll respond in more depth this evening--I don't have my sources at hand, and I can't remember the exact ordering, as it all didn't get put together at the same time.

I just wish Mikaberidze had made the book longer… :)

Wow…been a while. The Zhmodikovs also have an English translation/summation of Bogdanov's note in their Tactics of the Russian Army in the Napoleonic Wars, vol.2, p.78.

What is being described is a palisade made of two layers of logs, which are cut into the ground and then backed with earth which strengthens it and creates a firing platform for infantry. The outer wall is eight feet high, and the inner is six, and topped with a rail. The tops of every few of the outer layer are cut to the rail, which gives firing openings.

The two layers plus the earthen back and the inset into the ground helps strengthen the whole thing without having to do anything fancy.

I hope that makes sense?

Swampster – thanks. That makes perfect sense.

jeffreyw3 – again many thanks. That really helps. One more question: you state the palisades were made of logs. Mikaberidze says they were made of timber from torn down houses. Would the palisades be more planks than logs??
Once again manythanks!

Russian farmhouses were then usually built of logs, weren't they?

link

And people still live in log homes in smaller towns (had a great lunch/party in one a couple years ago)

The slope where the palisade went up wasn't/isn't very steep.

Do a search in the LOC for Borodino and you'll see what the houses looked like (Prokudin-Gorskii took photos in 1912 -- not a lot changed in 100 years). Also a nice view of the New Smolensk Road--puts travel in perspective.

loc.gov/exhibits/empire

Thanks to all of you!Another excellent example of the expertise to be found of TMP! Glad I got this before I got any further on the project. . .

Yep, that is still the strength of this forum. The experts can call each other every kind of villain and vagabond, but, if we pick and choose, they are the professionals, who can sift the evidence.

They can abuse each other, but we get the benefit of their research. Generally, the answer is that there is no high level evidence, for something only two centuries ago (makes you think about earlier periods).

I do think that things are getting quieter on this forum and hope I am wrong. Some great contributors have been lost, perhaps due to perceived insults, but the loss is ours'

Plus apologies. Three trips to Moscow, but never been to Borodino yet. Not one of the wives wanted to face the journey, but I will admit the current Mrs F at least walked the field of Waterloo at last (after three attempts to persuade her)

All I know is it is a poor redoubt that falls to cavalry, heavy or not…..riding around the back or not……French or not (they were not)

Mozhaisk is not a long drive at all from Moscow. The field in its current state is overgrown with trees, so it's very difficult to get a sense of the lines of sight (even the 1912 pics suffer a bit here). But it's definitely worth it to see why they picked it and the elevation changes and terrain--warning--you'll never look at a flat expanse of baize with a little lump in the center as Borodino again.

maybe helpfull as well

TMP link

TMP link

link

PDF link

I like Ivanov's sketches, which are based off archaeology at the site. The drawings in the links and Mikaberidze seem pat. And it was definitely not knee-high.

Here are some snaps I took a few years ago. May or may not be useful.

link

I had a model resin model made from this description for 15mm troops when I owned "True North Productions", it is scale representative in that the measurements aren't as large as the description, but it serves the purpose.

I'll have to learn about posting pics here, but, if anyone wants a pic, let me know….PM or David.Jackson@canada.ca

The model was made and cast by Leva Productions.

@Dave Jackson

Register with e.g. photobucket, then you can upload immages there – they will give an url link, which you paste and copy and insert into TMP text

Dave, von Winterfeldt is right. This presumes you know how to cut and paste, or copy and paste.

Once you have photos uploaded to Photobucket or Flickr or whatever, you click on the photo get the full size version. Then right-click on the desired photo. A small menu should appear, one option being "copy URL address". Click on that. This stores the address of the photo on your PC. Then go to the TMP post and right click where you want the photo to appear. A small menu should display the option "paste". Click that and presto.

Ok, I'll try that. Thanks guys.