"Crossbows in middle earth" Topic

continuing the middle earth questions until Bill runs the poll and gives us our own board:

Do you use Crossbows in your middle earth games?

To recap from the books:

The argument against is that all mention of ranged weaponry references bows, leading most tolkien scholars (NERDS) to conclude that there are indeed no crossbows.

An argument for is that several passages have references to "darts" and "bolts" rather than arrows.

The movie of course use crossbows as an uruk-hai weapon (and as a symbol of industry).

Of course as gamers, finding orcs with bows is often easier than with crossbows.

So, your call? Crossbows in Middle Earth?
Yeah? Not at all? Only for Uruk-Hai?

I have a few – but they do feel out of place so I rarely use them.

No!

I use them with LOTR SBG – I have 30 of the Uruk Hai crossbowmen from my WOTR days. I don't think they are any more out of place than all the plate armor. If I was doing a more tolkienesque, non-movie imagery game, I would have little plate and no crossbows for the lads.

I like the idea of a Tolkien board.

Obtw, I am teaching an office mate LOTR SBG at lunch. Today were playing Rohan versus Isengard. :-)

LostPict – Nice, it's a fantabulous little game :-)

Why no crossbows, other than no explicit mentions? In our own history they predate the Roman Empire, so why not?

I don't get the antipathy towards crossbows in Tolkien, it reminds me of the hate gunpowder weapons get in generic fantasy.

Nah. Though an argument for bolt-throwers could be made for sieges.

You could,in fact,make a case for gunpowder(or some form of "blasting fire"), not just at Helm's Deep, but in the Pelennor as well. Plus Greek Fire,or something similar,as used at Isengard.

I'm not sure if this applies, but I seem to recall that one of the Medieval Popes actually banned the use of crossbows against any enemy other than the "Infidels". So maybe the forces of Good did not use them, but Saruman's hordes did?

Yes

Of course,given that it's fantasy,you could introduce just about anything,including dwarf cavalry on sheep,or goats, or whatever they were riding in the movies. I would want to stick to the books.

Here's a discussion from a couple of months ago on some what-if scenarios:

TMP link

Did orcs have "throwing darts"? Maybe.

I suppose there's also a practical question of whether the crooked and decrepit orcs could wield and reload a crossbow effectively?

Uruk-Hai were bigger and tougher so probably but the spawn of Moria? Maybe not?

All the time.

I never thought of orcs as "decrepit"! The weakness of the Mountain Orcs was their sensitivity to sunlight. They were plenty strong.

Hafen – Strong certainly but I am more thinking of whether they'd be tall enough to actually load a crossbow proper.

Depends on the size of the crossbow? : )

Wolfgang – I guess it's the same thing as with this or that model of tank in a ww2 game.

Some people want to know if the specific sub-variant was present at a particular battle, others just want to know if it could have been :-)

Tolkien's use of "darts" is old fashioned English for arrows or javelins, but it's hard to say which he meant in any particular case. His area of historical expertise on combat was the Early Middle Ages, before crossbows were commonplace (and also WWI where he was an officer in an infantry battalion in the Western Front trenches). I am inclined to think that only self bows are correct, but figure manufacturers may not cooperate, and it's fiction so there is little point in being dogmatic.

Weddier--well stated. We have to be careful when considering Tolkien's usages. He moved back and forth from heavily archaized language all the way to (then) contemporary colloquialisms. As T.A.Shippey points out,he was a master of decorum.

You must feel strongly about the subject, if this really is your first post in four years! Hope you won't wait another four for the next one.

@Weasel- I get that, but for all his world building Tolkien doesn't actually give alot of specifics. So I don't get the firmness of the refusal.

There's nary a mention of crossbows in the books,which one would certainly expect if they had been conceived as being in use. But if you want them,why not?

See the link above for possible "armored vehicles".

I don't feel that crossbows should be used for any of the forces that are "in focus". They aren't mentioned in the catalog of arms from the Uruk-hai, Dwarves, Rohirim, Hobbits, Gondorians, or the Easterlings, Southrons, or Orcs.

Now, that said it is entirely possible that some exist. If you're gaming in the Age of Numenor, or in far east then crossbows might logically appear. I say this because Numenor was a technologically advanced civilization with a massive naval empire, and medieval navies and crossbows go together like bacon and brown sauce, and far eastern civilization might logically be not too far different from Ancient China, which had mass produced crossbows around the time of Alexander the Great.

Wolfgangbrooks – I'd chalk that up to nerds being easily exciteable :-)

Some very good points have been made here, I think.

I would say 'no' but one has to accept two things, I think.

Saruman was obsessed with technology on some level, hence his reconfiguration of Isengard. He obviously used black powder for explosives rather than just for fireworks. He was big on research into arcane technology and magical artefacts.

I'm persuaded by the notion that perhaps during the Numenorean exploratory period they may have come across hand held crossbows. If they did – and it was recorded – maybe Saruman came across the evidence?

I probably wouldn't use them but I'd chose them before I chose Gondorian plate armour.

Or sheep, stags or rabbits as riding animals or creatures in harness…

John T

No. I believe "darts" to refer to either arrows or javelins. I can't recall every reading about crossbows or crossbow bolts in any of the books.

Oddly there's mention of Numenorean "steel bows" but not of crossbows. Doesn't really matter I think.

In both generic and LotR fantasy terms, I've always thought of the cross bow as a weapon that would be very suited to both the skills and stature of dwarfs.

Given the inevitable conflict between elf and dwarf, I'm pretty sure that the dwarfs would have seen some benefit to missile weapons, even if they were clearly inferior to heavy armor and battle axes :)

I've never been a real fan of the 'Tolkien doesn't specifically mention it, so it can't be' mode of thought though.

Weasel you're causing all sorts of Middle Earth controversy!

My gut feeling is no, particularly not for the 'good guy' races and cultures (even the Dwarves). JRRT from what I heard considered crossbows 'machines' and wouldn't have had his heroes using them.

I could be persuaded that the forces of evil might have used them, particularly Saruman and his proto-industrialized military complex, for the same reasons John Treadaway says. But I could easily see them just using bows as well.

There are sources that discuss Numenorean steel bows and other advanced stuff; who knows what they ended up developing.

-Will

Bear in mind, of course, that Tolkien does give specific descriptions of the bows that Ugluk's uruk-hai carry.

They are longbows.

I'm also in agreement with wminsing about heroic status and the lack of it for crossbows. Overall – despite what I'd speculated on – my gut still says 'no'.

I think that if anyone might have built them it would be Dwarves (their clever manufacturing of complex toys make them technically capable I dare say) or maybe Saurman's human/orcs half (quarter?) breeds with the wizard performing the R&D.

But there's no more evidence for them than there are for bicycles…

John T

Wminsing – Sorry! In a bit of "nerd-scholar" mode lately :)

I agree John T,

Dwarves and orcs/goblins seem the most likely crossbow users to me if any. One advantage could be the relatively flat trajectory and ease of use through loopholes in caverns and dungeon-y style settings where much dwarf v orc fighting seems to have gone on.

Orcs/goblins are said to have invented some of the machinery that plague men today. It was setting up the idea that they are clever and love making evil easier, and wasn't a historical comment. But I'd easily think that guns and explosives were what he had in mind, so why not crossbows? I don't particularly want them in my Tolkien-inspired games, but have no objection to them in yours.

andy

It did not seem right to me that heavily armored Dwarves have bows rather than crossbows, so my Dwarves have crossbows.

Good point on that quote Andy; as you say, I think you *could* justify it, if one really wanted crossbows. But there's no hard proof for them either.

Amazing that we're having a very similar argument over Carthaginian Pikes over in the Ancients board. :)

-Will

John Treadaway:"They are longbows."

Wouldn't orcs be too short to use longbows?

Now I am reminded of the old 3.5 D&D debates about whether a small long sword is bigger than a large short sword :D

Yeah but Ugluk's lot are Man-High Uruk-Hai

"We are the fighting Uruk-Hai!
The more we fight,the more you die!"

The Uruk-Hai are a more refined breed of Orc. They are man high, and still have long arms, so they can get quite a powerful draw indeed.

My thinking on using crossbows noted, I think ballistae should be fine in situations where siege engines are used.

No to crossbows, plate armour very rare. I have other settings for those kind of things.

But yes to Hobbit golf courses, of course…

Tolkien mentions Uruks using yew longbows like "men". Its the Elves who have short bows. Legolas has a short bow but gets a better bow.

I suspect Tolkien intended Elves esp Wood Elves to be slighter and not as strong as men, though better skilled and sharper eyed.

TomT