"Lord of the Rings what if" Topic

Refecting upon the use by Sauroman of a black powder bomb, it occured to me that if there had benn more bombs, the defenses of the Deep would have fallen before assistance would have arrived, indeed, what if the Orcs had been armed with grenades or worse, that the White Wizard had discovered metalurgy and produced cannon and firearms?
None of this is a stretch as Sauroman is the proto industrialist as his statements about industry indicate
So a war between armies of sword and bow vs armies of firearms and explosives?

Are you talking about the movies or the books?

Imagine LotR set during the Victorian 'Steam Punk' era…

Rick,
Certainly plausible,as Saruman means,essentially,"Cunning man" in Old English.
Metallurgy was well established in Middle Earth--witness the mighty works of the Dwarves and Numenoreans,for example. Why they didn't develop gun technology isn't explained,AFAIK.

It would have taken the world out of its Medieval atmosphere,of course. Tolkien wouldn't have wanted to do that. I suspect he got his fill of "blasting fire" on the Somme.

Within the story,I'd suppose you could assume that Saruman would be leery of giving his minions,whether orcs or men,too much "firepower"--they might start getting uppity ideas.

But it's an interesting thought,and you're on the right track with the "industrialist" angle--Saruman was the stock Philosophus Gloriousus character,attempting to do with technology what Sauron did with his innate power--and the Ring.

Re read the books, but it's also in the film. Saruman used explosives at Helms Deep.

The books also mention something akin to napalm, when the Ents attack Isengard one of them is burnt up by some liquid fire type stuff. Maybe Middle Earth equivalent of Greek Fire?

Gandalf also knew about gunpowder : the fireworks at Bilbos party. Sometimes it's unclear where it lies on the magic-to-chemistry continuum. The flash bang at goblin town, flaming pine cones etc. Certainly the dragon firework at the Party seems to have a little magic as well as plenty of gunpowder and sparkly bits.

LOTR went through so many versions that anything is possible. But it's clear that JRRT wasn't a fan of technology or at least, not rampant technology. The dwarves make clever toys but can be seen as greedy; Sam thinks the new mill in the Shire is on the way to creating a desert. Gandalf uses some kind of "magic flash bang" but uses it to entertain and defend – Saruman doesn't. It's in keeping with Faramir's statement that he doesn't love the sharp sword or the swift arrow – but he does love that which they defend. I don't know if Tolkien saw technology as evil but he was certainly on guard as to how it was used. I'd say LOTR is best off without anything beyond sarumans blasting devices. Weren't some used to breach the walks into the Pelennor Fields? Or am I making that up?

Presumably he could not build up his stores quickly enough. The actions of the Fellowship and Sauron, forced his hand too early. So limited stocks of boom in the field.

Good point.

In fact,MC,now that I think about it, one could presume that it was still in the "experimental" stage,when his hand was forced. There would be a parallel with Saruman's mocking of Gandalf's adoption of pipeweed,which he himself then took up in secret. He made a show of disdain for all of Gandalf's activities,including fireworks,I think--though I can't recall any actual quotes to that effect. In reality, of course, he was envious and jealous of him. It would be in character for him to try to emulate G's fire abilities,though in a technological manner. And of course,for nefarious purposes.

Same with the Geek fire Timbo mentioned: "Better Evil Through Chemistry".

As far as the "magical" element in Gandalf's use of fire that Timbo and Goonfighter allude to,remember that Gandalf is probably something like the Middle Earth equivalent of a seraph;his association with fire is plain enough. Though even here it gets a little murky,as he also carries the Ring of Fire,and that was made by the Elves. There was s probably a natural affinity; it was certainly recognized by Cirdan.

Naur an edraith ammen!

This is a What If and like all what ifs there are at least two questions. Is the If straying too far from the source material, the novel? I have had a similar question regatding the World War 3 novel Team Yankee where it seems the game does stray from the novel. The second question is would it be out of character for say Hitler to have focused on getting the jet fighter into service or indeed stayed on focus with any one of a number of projects to win the was instead of wasting time and resources in killing undesirables, as with would it be in Sarumons makeup to have been more industriuos

As to having the time, the development of explosives and firearms could have already been ongoing before Gandolf discovered the Ring
As to the orcs or men getting ideas or getting uppity, we need only look at the Tsars army of the Napoleonic period for an army of slaves armed with firearms
The lroblem is if there is something to cku ter balance an army weilding exosives.Archers a d swords alone would, even if the numbers were equal, would be at a disadvantage
Although Tolkien did not like modern technology, he was not alone. In his day were Western generals who prefered horses to machine guns and tanks, so, what if the industrial Wizard comes up with the Orcan Panzer?

This is – IMHO – a genuinely interesting and well informed thread.

Not something I'd considered but – to be honest – I'd rather play a game that extrapolates Tolkien's LotR with this 'what if' than Peter Jackson's version any day of the weak so…

Yeah: perhaps Sauruman was, frankly, just stopped in time from developing more 'sophisticated' weaponry.

John T

EDIT

Imagine LotR set during the Victorian 'Steam Punk' era…

I'd rather not, ta!

Well the gunpowder has to be carried into position to be used, no cannon.

So not terribly useful.

As to your questions, Rick,I'd say that:

First,whether the "what if" is too far from the source material,that is subjective;you are the judge of what would be "too far" for the puposes of your gaming. The source is fantasy,after all.

As an example,the "orcan panzers" you suggest might seem a little extreme,but in fact (!) have a basis in Tolkien. "The Book of Lost Tales", Part II, has a description of "monsters of iron and flame"(page 170),carrying orcs and balrogs,which were instrumental in the assault on Gondollin. In fact,the Elves found it almost impossible to counter them. They seem from the description to be a sort of "iron serpent",although there appear to be various kinds. I recommend a reading,for some ideas(these are among Tolkien's earliest writings,though,so are in the heavily archaizing style of his early work).

The tale of the Fall of Gondollin was absolutely central to the Elves of Middle Earth,so Saruman would certainly be familiar with it. Which leads to your second question. I see no reason why Saruman,if he had the resources,would not have tried something similar. It would definitely be "in character". But again,his efforts would probably be strictly "technological" The Monsters of the First age were created by Morgoth,one of the greatest of the Valar,beings far more powerful than Sauron,who was of the lesser order of Maiar,as were the wizards,though of even lower degree. Even Morgoth had to gather "all his most cunning smiths and sorcerers" to accomplish the task. Sauron obviously didn't feel himself up to it,in the Third Age.

So I'd conclude that,while Saruman could possibly have contrived such things,numbers,and probably also functionality,would likely be limited. And that might be the best route to take.

Not pertinent to the subject,but I want to note that the Fall of Gondollin was also central to Tolkien's epic:he considered it THE important story,from which all the other stories spread out in time and space. A great pity that he was never able to complete it. All we have is an abandoned manuscript of about 25 pages,which only got as far as the coming of Tuor through the Encircling Mountains,to within sight of the city(published in Unfinished Tales). Much has been lost,sigh.

Hafen von S., excellent material to consider.

All,

Gunpowder was on earth a long time before it really changed how armies fought, certainly longer than the length of events in LotR.

Come to think if Saruman had a petard, he might easily have come up with a petard projector in the form of trebuchet or what have you. The fusing would be the devil in it. Similarly a humanoid could be used to toss a smaller version.

For game purposes having both liable to premature detonations would add an imponderable to a "what if" game without perhaps unduly imbalancing it.

I am playing a LotR campaign in the black powder era but that is so far from a "what if", it is just a plot on which to hang games.

Having the ability to make things go boom, and then being able to transfer that into using the boom itself to usefully launch a projectile out of a tube are two separate milestones.

Brain reeling…

Not a bad thing just one more fascinating distraction…

I kept meaning to come back here and add a couple of notes,and since the ME discussion has hotted up the last few days,this seems like a good time.

Goonfighter was right about the walls of the Pelennor:

"Now ever and anon there was a red flash,and slowly through the heavy air dull rumbles could be heard.
'They have taken the wall!' men cried. 'They are blasting breaches in it. They are coming!'"

The other thing concerns the notion of a "slave" army. I'd tend to resist that idea,at least in Saruman's case. The Dunlandings hated the Rohirrim,and needed little convincing,maybe just organizing and supplying, The Uruk-Hai were Saruman's own creations (as,if you accept their existence,were the "half-orcs", etc.--see the relevant thread). As such,I'm not sure how much the term "slave" would apply,or how Saruman would go about enslaving anyone. His voice, as Tolkien stated in a letter,was not "hypnotic" but persuasive. T certainly had enough 20th century models to use.

Of course,Saruman could have had his forces kidnap Rohirrim for slave labor,but I don't recall any mention of it.

In any case, I'd still incline towards the view that Saruman would want to keep his most powerful weapons under his personal control,as much as possible. In fact, the very limited use of "gunpowder" by Saruman's army,compared to the apparently more widespread distribution in Sauron's, might serve as a sort of measure of the levels of strength of personality of the two characters.

On a sadder note, I see two locked accounts just on this short thread. I believe Mute Bystander locked himself; what happened to Goonfighter?

I tend to think that Wizards like Gandalf and Saruman would keep their trade secrets on something like gunpowder. Call it chemistry or magic, it is still how you use it and what you use it for that is important, which makes LOTR a work of literature.

In general, I would point out that the looking at the lack of technological advancement is a hard one for us to look at. Why would Elves care for things that would make their lives easier? They live forever, and most likely use magic for anything menial. We as humans cant grasp that kind of life.

Wow, I procrastinated,and now a month has gone by. Necroposting again!

I would be very hesitant about attributing "magic" to anything involving the Elves,at least Tolkien's Elves. He held definite ideas about what we call magic. Recall the cloaks given to the Fellowship in Lothlorien:

"Are these magic cloaks?" asked Pippin,looking at them with wonder.
"I do not know what you mean by that", answered the leader of the Elves.

And Galadriel and her Mirror:

"And you?" she said,turning to Sam. "For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy".

In his essay "On Fairy Stories" Tolkien calls the Elves "natural,far more natural than we are". They are "of" the world,wholly bound up with it,and co-extensive with it,in a way that mortals are not. Their love for the world would, I'd think,prevent them from seeing any task involving this world as "menial";in fact they likely wouldn't understand the word. As the Elf goes on to say to Pippin:

"They are Elvish robes certainly,if that is what you mean. Leaf and branch,water and stone: they have the hue and beauty of all these things under the twilight of Loren that we love; for we put the thought of all that we love into all that we make".

And he states that the "Lady and her maidens wove this stuff"; wove manually, that is, or at least that's the implication.

The conclusion would be that,unlike the Magician,who,as Tolkien says, manipulates,or pretends to manipulate, the substance of this world for his own ends, the Elves work with the things of this world to create a kind of art,the kind of Art he (and we) could call "Enchantment".