"Drum-Majors in Action during the Napoleonic Wars " Topic

On present evidence, I don't think so, thanks.

There is a big difference between learning to play a drum and learning to play a modern drum kit.

Anyone one can be taught how to bang a single drum and be able to beat a tune in a Few days.

But yes. A session musician or rock drummer would take years but since they play drum kits (3-8 drums, 2-4 cymbals and a bass pedal/kick pedal) In a variety of styles then that's another thing entirely way more than learning a few paradiddles.

There was no "combat training" or learning to play under fire as far as I know. A drummer once able to play all the required calls would be under fire and expected to perform. Thrown in the deep end. Training would focus entirely on drumming and marching.

As a comparison, there is a difference in the driving skills of a person who, having learnt to operate a vehicle, has passed their driving test and the experience that leads someone to being an accomplished and confident driver, negotiating city traffic or motorways.

We won't talk about bad habits. The comparison only goes so far

I must admit to enjoying a good napoleonic rant, but this is the reason that I won't wargame the period!

"I must admit to enjoying a good napoleonic rant, but this is the reason that I won't wargame the period!"

Huh? You won't war-game it because some strangers on TMP whom you'll never meet are having an argument with a guy who doesn't even play ?

that's another thing entirely way more than learning a few paradiddles.

The subject batteries and drum calls, and being under fire when having to do it is just a 'little' more than 'learning a few paradiddles.

To denigrate the service of those in the past seems to me to be both petty and out of line.

However, do as you wish. But it does speak to character and a lack of overall knowledge of the period and those who marched and fought in it.

I can see Freddy's point. If the vehemence that too often takes place on this forum over either a difference of opinion, or more likely, against anyone who expresses a positive remark or position on Napoleon, the Grande Armee, and the French also takes place around a gaming table then that would turn people away from the Napoleonic hobby.

Of course, on the other hand, that would mean confronting people face to face and I seriously doubt that those who continually attack and denigrate others on the internet would do it in person.

And too many of those who seek to bait and cause a confrontation then accuse the person(s) they attack with causing the personal attacks.

Perhaps some here ought to get a grip and at least attempt to put forth their discussion topics/arguments in a more gentlemanly manner. These people do seem shocked at the reaction of others when they begin their personal attacks. Seems to me there are too many who live for the personal attacks and not the information and discussions. I certainly do not and I find it a waste of time that could be spent in useful discussions. Thankfully, we have many of those here.

Ah, the moral high ground. So envigorating

Perhaps you should try it sometime?

ぱか!!

why so rude. No insult was aimed at you by me so why so quick to TRY and belittle little old me.
I'll bow to your knowledge of French artillery (and modern US military) but in terms of drumming, any drumming, I don't think you know as much as your bluffing about.

What combat conditioning did drummers do then?

Perhaps you should try it sometime?

I can see fairly well from here, thank you.

Edwulf

I think you have actually answered your own question without being aware of it.

For one, you are forgetting that modern day drummers playing on drum kits, do not also have to be good at drill and knowing what movements he will have to undertake that correspond with the battle tactics of the day. It is not just about what he is playing, is it?

And have thought that perhaps that is what Elting may have been referring to? That you may be able to learn anyone, then and now, to play the drums and even play all the required beats correctly, in a few months. But that would be within a peaceful and safe environment.

No one, as far as I am aware, would be trying to kill the drummers while they are learning or put them in danger. And the point is, no one can say how these 'trainee or new' drummers would react when in actual combat, until they are actually in combat, surrounded by all the blood, gore, smoke and noise. Some may well react perfectly well and might be able to concentrate and employ what they were taught in their 'safe haven', but equally, for others the safe training may go completely out of the window and they may be unable to concentrate at all.

It takes time for a soldier to react to the experience of being in actual combat, no matter what he has been taught or what level of competence he has reached.

'I can see Freddy's point. If the vehemence that too often takes place on this forum over either a difference of opinion, or more likely, against anyone who expresses a positive remark or position on Napoleon, the Grande Armee, and the French also takes place around a gaming table then that would turn people away from the Napoleonic hobby.

Of course, on the other hand, that would mean confronting people face to face and I seriously doubt that those who continually attack and denigrate others on the internet would do it in person.

And too many of those who seek to bait and cause a confrontation then accuse the person(s) they attack with causing the personal attacks.

Perhaps some here ought to get a grip and at least attempt to put forth their discussion topics/arguments in a more gentlemanly manner. These people do seem shocked at the reaction of others when they begin their personal attacks. Seems to me there are too many who live for the personal attacks and not the information and discussions. I certainly do not and I find it a waste of time that could be spent in useful discussions. Thankfully, we have many of those here.'

The utter lack of self-awareness, and hypocrisy in this post is stunning!
Nice one, I was getting bored with this thread, as you and the Gazz-man got all your opponents dawg-housed, but now you have an in-opposed forum, and are now free to act all innocent, and set upon, it's great, ahhhhh, l love the Nappy boards!

Happy Monday's, everyone.

Oh, speaking as an ex-drummer in a band, with 9 drums, the notion of a five-year course to being an expert, even under combat, (been in both) is utterly ludicrous. Even 5 months is stretching it, but, pointless comment, as you bull-heatedly refuse to hear a word said against your beloved, and equally Franco-biased Elting. Loved 'Swords' by the way, but could see the pro-Napoleon bias for what it was, so took a lot of it with a pinch of salt, but the hard facts were great, although somewhat hidden amidst the gushing. As a friend of mine was told by his publisher when he was seeking titles for his latest book, 'if it hasn't got Hitler or Napoleon in the title, the yanks won't like it' I think that's equal parts funny, and a little sad.

John

Oh, but Brech, l love your use of the phrase, 'speak to character' very Spartacus!

'Speak to Character!'

'Fall to command'

'words fall from mouth, like from Arse' etc. great stuff!

I now see Gazz flying to your defense, although l was only having a little jokey at you, his stiletto, and 'Sě barone' to your 'bad toad'

John

Oh, and before you go crying to Bill, and get me dawghoused, for, l don't know, 'levity and crap jokes'………

Picture the scene, a study, Brech and Elting sit, in wingback chairs, by a fire, in smoking jackets, rolling glasses of claret around old-book smelling fingers…….

'Weren't the French great?'

'Oh yes, wonderful'

'But it as wonderful as Napoleon'

'True, true, true, the emporer rocks!'

'Those British though, awful'

'Quite awful, constantly goading and invading Poor Napoleons peaceful realm'

'Hooligans, and war-mongers'

'Oh, l have this months 'Napoleon illustrated' it's the swimsuit issue….'

'Fantastic, er, let yourself out, there's a good boy'

John

Told you both before, l only come here to Coney Hatch, to point and laugh.

John

By John 54

I wasn't sure if I should post to you, considering you boasted you only come here for a laugh while drinking beer.

But I was interested in your claims of being a drummer in a band and having combat experience, although that makes it all the more puzzling that instead of mentioning this before, you chose to ramble on about your brother playing the drums in the Boy Scouts? LOL

So, you have been a drummer in a band. Well, I won't ask you about how your er, band, fared. But I would be interested in knowing if you can recall your experiences of playing the drums while advancing towards the enemy and coming under fire?

As to members being dawghoused, that was due to whatever they put in their posts. Sorry to disappoint you, but both myself and Brechtel198 do not have the authority or ability to dawghouse anyone. And I, for one, have not complained about anyone. You can ask the editor if you don't believe me.

Ah, Gazz, there you go again, 'boasting'? Hardly, and as to combat, I'm saying nowt, I hate the apparent trump of 'I was there, man, you don't understand, your argument is invalid' etc

Returning to the really rather pathetic nub, I'll ask you once, and once only, do you earnestly believe it's takes Five years to become an expert drummer?!? Really? As to combat, if it takes 5 months to train, do you really think it then takes 4years 7 months to get expert under fire? Really?!? It's a nonsense.

And I know how TMP works, I'm aware you can't get people doghouses, but you can press the button…..

Oh, LOL

John

John

And I would find it hard to march with a full drum kit, although the band was pretty awful in the beginning so l was 'under fire' from beer cans, etc!

In regard to conditioning to combat:
The following is taken from Crowdy's, Napoleon's Infantry Handbook, Section 37, Drummer (Tambour).

Drummers were chosen from among suitable fusiliers by the colonel (officially they were never children). There were two drummers per company, but when the battalion formed, the drummers would unite, standing in two ranks fifteen paces behind the fifth platoon. They only marched in front of the battalion during parades – in combat they were too important to be exposed to the worst of enemy fire. Their principal role was to communicate orders through a variety of rolls and beats, the most important of which were known as the ordinance calls…

It doesn't say whether the fusiliers were of short or long service, but presumably they were at least trained in the manual of arms, as soldiers.

In the section on children it states:

When the regiment went to war the regimental children would remain with the depot. The minimum age for children to accompany the regiment as musicians was set at 14 years. At this age children who had made good progress in music were able to join the regimental band and serve on full pay; but they were not allowed to serve as drummers. When the boys reached the age of 16 they were allowed to sign up (two years earlier than usually permitted) and serve as soldiers on full pay.

Presumably a 16 year-old former child musician could be selected by the colonel to be a drummer, should a vacancy exist.
The training of drummers was the responsibility of the drum corporal. However, the text does not include the time required for training. However, it does say the following:

The decree of 3 July 1811 allowed regiments to nominate a second drum corporal who would remain in the regimental depot and train the student drummers.

Part of the training including lessons on enemy drum beats.

"Drummers were chosen from among suitable fusiliers by the colonel (officially they were never children). "

Ah – yes, but inofficially they were – there exist quite a few contemporary pictures showing Drummer Boys.

Also – in case someone is interested read about the Drummer selection in the excellent source provided by Scharnachthal
(who alas is a casualty in the feud and dawghoused for no other reason than speaking out the truth).

TMP link

'Finally, it lives up to it's reputation' says it all really…………..

John

Hmmm. For some reason I thought I would re-visit this….

YouTube link

yes, but inofficially they were – there exist quite a few contemporary pictures showing Drummer Boys.

Thanks VW – maybe some of those were the young 16 year-old former regimental children.

Oh, cerdic, so funny, and just sooooooo relevant!

Thank you for this gift.

John

…and before you go crying to Bill, and get me dawghoused…

Sorry to disappoint you, but I didn't complain to anyone about the three who were doghoused. I don't do that, just as I don't stifle anyone.

Would you like to take another guess?

By John 54

If you have any complaints about who was dawghoused and why and who by, then I think you need to contact the editor.

Like Brechtel198, I have not pressed any buttons and would not have done so for anyone in this thread. In fact, I have never pressed any buttons in any thread and I do not use the stifle either. As far as I am concerned, anyone resorting to insults says more about them than anything else. Plus, like Brechtel198, I am thick skinned and used to silly and wasteful flak being aimed in my direction.

In terms of how long it would take to become an expert drummer and one who remains as such under combat, I have no idea. That is why I made the musicians link. They seem to think it would take two to three years to become a good drummer, although there is no mention of how long it would take or how they would react or if their skill level would be affected in actual combat.

But it was interesting that SM mentioned his wife would not hire anyone with less than 10 years experience. That suggests time makes them more skilful and proficient, otherwise, why not hire someone who has only been playing the drums for a couple of months?

'But it was interesting that SM mentioned his wife would not hire anyone with less than 10 years experience. That suggests time makes them more skilful and proficient, otherwise, why not hire someone who has only been playing the drums for a couple of months?'

And yet again, you choose which to use, This has VERY little to do with the topic, IF your French side drummer had a 9-piece kit, plus cymbals, gong, and sometimes, other percussion, and had to learn to play EVERY style, from Rock to Reggae, Blast beats to Jazz, skiffle to Blues, Funk to Classical, then yes, I would agree 10 years is very right! As session musicians are, by definition, at the top of their game, and have to be, as all their contributions are scrutinized by thousands, and if recording, sometimes millions. But they have little in common with a French Napoleonic drummer-boy, aside from two sticks, and a drum.

And again, words in my mouth, I have no 'complaints' about doghousing, couldn't care less if I tried.

John

And, now, let me post my last in the style of you and Brech……………..

Well, your stupid post clearly shows you have no knowledge of Session musicians, or drummers at all, I suggest you read Williams, work/essay/source (delete as most pretentious)
Page 143, Blah, blah, blah, etc. Now, if you read this referenced work, come back to continue the debate. I presume you can read, can't you?

See the difference? no? 'course you dont.

John

What is it with the Napoleonics boards??

How will this very important discussion affect wargaming rules in the future?
I guess about as much as the famous bricoles discussion did.

As usual, give the French drummers a +2 for being French.

You know, I suspect this discussion was about something much more important than French drummers.

It always is. Maybe.
It's like yet another border dispute in the middle of the swamp. It's pride that's at stake but nothing really all that important.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!! This is better than the old CA Board. I've been studying Napoleonic Warfare since I saved the Waterloo article from Life magazine in 1965. I can't imagine under which momentous circumstance the time to train a drummer would be of any importance to my studies, or my gaming. It ranks right down there with how many rankers stopped to wipe manure from their shoes while advancing toward the enemy. Surely the combined intelligence of TMP can be put to better use than going Bat crazy over a molehill.

@Garth: Sadly, I have met some of those 'strangers' in real life and been subjected to their rants face to face!

Oh, do tell!

By John 54

You seem unable to grasp the point that time makes drummers better, and time may turn them into experts. I doubt anyone could become an 'expert' drummer and one capable of remaining good at his job under combat conditions in a few months. If you don't want to believe that, that's fine. That is your opinion and viewpoint. I prefer to be more open minded about it. I agree that five to ten years does seem a long time but like I said before, in my case, that still wouldn't be long enough for me to be able to play the basics, let alone do it in the middle of a battle.

As for dawghousing, if, as you claim, you do not care about it, why the heck did you make the silly and incorrect claim that me and Brechtel198 got other members dawghoused? LOL

DJCoaltrain

I think you will find a topic does not have to be important to be debated and discussed. In this case it was an unusual and interesting topic, but certainly not that important, especially to gaming the period. But variety is the spice of life and it is, to a certain degree at times, enjoyable to talk about non-important matters. You might not want to, but that is your choice, just as I have not joined in other debates or found other topics interesting. But one should not knock something just because it does not interest you.

However, the topic would have ended long ago, but some members wanted to use the topic as a feeble attempt to destroy the reputation of a renowned historian. Many threads go off topic, and annoying as that can be, it is sometimes worthwhile. And besides, no one is forcing you to read the thread, are they?

I posted the information from Swords in order to be helpful and support the OP.

Unfortunately, some took offense at that action which seems to me both ahistorical and prejudicial. It all comes back to the idea that if anything supporting Napoleon and the Grande Armee is posted, then a few posters just can't stand it and have to object vehemently which tends to ruin a good many threads.

And then they accuse others of getting personal regarding comments. I do believe that the three that were doghoused deserved it, and I suspect that the Editor(s) saw them and took action. Becoming profane over an historical subject is the last action of the ignorant.

Bartosz-Mertz makes it perfectly clear in his seminal work on percussive military instruments during the period that proficiency was expected of a French drummer after no more than one year. And since his primary sources include von Mootz, Vicomte de Ercles and Hoche it might be well to folow his lead.

Do you have the title(s)?

Looked like they really just wanted some sources to me.

02 Aug 2016 4:58 a.m. PST
"I posted the information from Swords in order to be helpful and support the OP."

Yes. You did.

"Unfortunately, some took offense at that action which seems to me both ahistorical and prejudicial. It all comes back to the idea that if anything supporting Napoleon and the Grande Armee is posted, then a few posters just can't stand it and have to object vehemently which tends to ruin a good many threads."

No. Some sounded sceptical about the claim and wanted details. Pro- France/anti France was not even a factor. People wanted proof that the 5 year claim came from something concrete. How it taking 5 years to train a drummer can be taken as pro/anti French?

"And then they accuse others of getting personal regarding comments. I do believe that the three that were doghoused deserved it, and I suspect that the Editor(s) saw them and took action. Becoming profane over an historical subject is the last action of the ignorant."

You yourself got personal without provocation.

Yup.

And while it is total unimportant to wargaming it is still an interesting question.

No, that is incorrect.

First, there was a comment of 'nonsense' regarding the quotation I posted.

Second, I was accused of being 'condescending' which was an assumption that wasn't true.

Third, there were the third person comments of VW, which is a constant with him and are both disingenuous and out of line.

So, both of your assumptions are incorrect.

Now, if you would like to continue with this line, by email is Boulart198@yahoo.com. If not, then I suggest that we stop here.

Sorry. The brontosaurus(i) that stomp all over the flower beds do not get to say "It stops here!"
Your job is to amuse us. Pray, continue.

'Bartosz-Mertz makes it perfectly clear in his seminal work on percussive military instruments during the period that proficiency was expected of a French drummer after no more than one year. And since his primary sources include von Mootz, Vicomte de Ercles and Hoche it might be well to folow his lead.'

Seconds out, round two, Ding, Ding!

John

A fascinating read. I think the real question is how much of their remaining reputation is someone willing to destroy in defence of an inconsequential issue on another's behalf? As the topic was Drum-Majors, I'm unsure as to why a person would nail their colours to the drummer's mast and then promptly open the stopcocks.

For someone who spends so much of their time collecting 'arrows for the quiver', you seem to regularly shoot yourself in the foot Kevin. This really isn't about anti-French feeling, but you don't help yourself with your condescension and refusal to play by the same rules you insist others adhere to.

As you've already pointed out, there are errors in Swords Around a Throne. Perhaps it would be easier to concede that this issue *might* be one of the them (and repeated elsewhere by the same author) or at least present *any* evidence that might support Elting's statement that apparently French drummers took twelve times longer to be trained than anyone else's.

Now, who makes 15mm versions of these guys? Under fire, naturally.

Okay, not from the First Empire… but I wish we could talk to this drummer of the 1st Grenadiers of the French Imperial Guard (veteran of the Crimean War and Franco-Austrian War of 1859). Photo taken in 1860.

Click on the image to enlarge it: link

Edwulf

The thread was going fine with some strong viewpoints on either side being made, although I observed that those arguing for less than five years to train a drummer still offered different timescales. In short, they don't really know and certainly do not know or offered any evidence as to how any so called 'trained' drummers might react in combat, especially in terms of their level of proficiency, which I believe may have been what was behind Elting's statement. Unfortunately, he is not with us anymore, so we are unable to ask him for the source, which may or may not have resolved the topic.

But as I say, the thread from this unusual but interesting topic was going fine until people disagreeing with Elting's viewpoint, started throwing out personal insults. The first was By John 54 (see his post 19th July 11.58am), then on 28th July, (posts 2.42pm & 3.02 pm) both Scharnachthal and dibble made personal attacks WITHOUT PROVOCATION. On top of that there is VW's 'brave' insults.

It was further ruined by members who diverted the thread into one in which they attempted to tarnish the reputation of a renowned author and his work, a work that had been described as a masterpiece by other renowned authors. But what do they know, eh?

Ben Avery

It is really good to see you contributing to the topic. Okay, it's been six pages in before you made your 'sudden' appearance, but after such an 'enlightening' and 'informative post' I don't think anyone needs to discuss this Napoleonic topic any further. LOL