"Early Spanish Cavalry. The Return of?" Topic

Let me honest. I know nothing about Spanish Cavalry of the early Peninsular War, but I am enthused when I see anyone produce some literature on what may be seen as an obscure topic, such as this.

I still treasure the Cossack Guards book

I have already said how much I favour the glamorous cavalry of any country. One author did reply to say this book would also cover Spanish Guards (never knew they had such……..) and their Artillery, as the subtitle suggests. There was many a response expressing great enthusiasm and remembering the earlier book on infantry.

Someone said it would be released at something called Salute……I remember SELWAG…from 30 years ago! Seems their title has changed slightly…Have you seen the list of manufacturers attending??

Anyway, everything disappeared after someone posted gay porn and our editor tried to correct this, whilst wiping the lot. (My attitude has always been, as long as they do not frighten the horses, …..…let them do what they will ..but anything else I say will lead to me being dawghoused….live and let live, I say……other than Dimitri Payet I have never been physically attracted to another man….but that free kick was special…….) Let me try again, this will soon be published basically and I must beat Tango to it

deadhead

I don't really want to repeat my posts but since they were lost, I don't see why not.

Both the Spanish Infantry and Spanish Cavalry titles look very interesting and I have added them to my ever growing to-get list. And it is really nice and refreshing to see titles on the lesser covered aspects of the period.

However, on the negative side, they do seem rather pricy for less than 200 pages, as good as their contents may be. But I have a birthday coming up, so they may well end up on my birthday list. LOL

Thanks for the response. It is actually encouraging that you have taken the effort to repeat your input.

Must admit I have no idea about the price of the second volume, but I can imagine it is a highly specialised publication and the economies of scale will not apply then.

Summerfield's Guard Cossacks was not cheap, but the same comments apply and I found it invaluable.

There was a nicely developing topic about what figures folk would use to recreate these in any scale. But that is now lost in the ether too………

These things do happen

Ah, memories! Back in The Day I had the Regimento del Rey and the Carbineros Reales--plus dragoons and the Maria Louisa Hussars--in 30mm CLS. The great thing about Napoleonic Spanish is that if you lose, no one holds it against you, and if you win, you're a genius.

Must get back to painting my WWII Italians.

Oh. The Spanish Guard cavalry comes off a bit obscure because most of it was in Madrid on the Dos de Mayo. The only bits you find in the field were units which left without (or against) orders before open war broke out.

Thanks for the Guard info (and the laugh re the combat value of these glamorous units). I did wonder.

The original infantry book was subject to a detailed review here, in 2014 and we were promised the second volume, shortly. We all can sympathise with that, working to any project deadline!

TMP link

Both are authored by Gerard Cronin (whose Gringo40s brought us those Mamelukes and Gendarmes) and Stephen Summerfield, who equally needs no intro on this forum.

The original volume covered the Spanish infantry 1798-1808 ie prior to the French invasion.

What has me intrigued was a one liner from Ged, now lost in the melt down. Just a hint, that he had expanded his library on Mamelukes and might find a literary a use for his new references………….

Still interested to hear figure recommendations for this period

deadhead

The Spanish Infantry was priced at just on £37.00 GBP on Amazon, so I imagine the Cavalry book will be around the same. I know they are specialist titles but I can get both of Dawson's specialist titles covering Napoleon's Last Army for the virtually the same price. Although admittedly, Dawson's books don't contain as many pages as the Spanish titles.

Anyway, enough of my griping. I have some of Summerfield's books, so I know they contain some good stuff and usually a fair amount of detailed information. And I guess I'm moaning because I know I will just have to get them. LOL

test

Oh this is working. Because this topic was started after the glitch hit. It is those that were newly opened during that hiatus that are lost forever. It registers as folk try to post…the total number of responses increases, but nothing appears.

Never mind. I was much more worried when the site disappeared for an hour today!

My newly acquired interest in the Spanish Army of the Napoleonic era required that I have the infantry book. Now it appears I will have to have this one also. It is indeed comforting to know that I am not alone in my addiction. John Miller

Richard Brown of Ken Trotman should confirm today that he has picked up the book from the Printers. There has been a delay in the binding process. Alas we have had two printers go bust in the time between the very successful Spanish Infantry and this book.

The authors are as anxious as the readers to see the finished book.
Stephen

The book will be launched at Salute.
Stephen

The Spanish book will indeed be available at Salute
Gringo40s owner Gerard Cronin and one of the authors
will have copies available on his stand TF01 ..do come
up and say hello……….!

regards
Ged (Gerard Cronin)
gringo40s.com
gringo40s.blogspot.com

I bought both books, I really wish I'd had them when I was building my Spanish wargames army. They would have saved me lots of research.

It's just a pity someone didn't do a better job proofreading them. In the first book you can see an Introduction that starts with the word 00The – not a promising start to any book.

What's more worrying is that there seem to me to be a number of inconsistancies. The chapter on Hussars states that they "did not have standard-bearers as they lacked standards" but further down on the same page the regimental organisation gives 4 Stamdard-bearers (ranked as 2nd Lt) and on following pages the standards of the 2 hussar regiments are illustrated. Is this a typo or what? Some better form of explanation is needed.

Ditto Cazadores a Caballo.

But I'm very glad I purchased them :)

In the second imprint of Spanish Infantry, the slip of the keyboard has been removed. The issue of standards to the light cavalry is a very complex and confusing area. In general light cavalry did not have standards. In 1802, Hussars were issued standards. The organisation is post 1802.

The book went to the printers over a year ago. Alas he went out of business and so alas my memory is not as it was.
Stephen

comments noted on the book……….the sales of the second
tome have been amazing and proves there is a huge gap in ready information uniform wise for this underated and splendidly attired army under occupation who proved their
worth on many occasions.
slight glitches always appear as stated above but im glad
overall you like the book.

regards
Ged (aka Gerard Cronin)
joint author…..
gringo40s.com
gringo40s.blogspot.com

I for one found the Infantry volume invaluable and have just ordered the Cavalry volume. Now I can finish my early Spanish army.

Thank you Stephen and Gerald for all you hard work in producing these two works.

the sales of the second tome have been amazing

That's good news. Does this mean there's a chance that further books in the series will cover the later war? (He asks hopefully).

Gerard
Great to hear that the sales have been very boyant for our book. The publisher has already put an order in for a second print.
Stephen

indeed Stephen…………..I have had to re-order today for both volumes for my Gringo40s site
as one without the other just isn't cricket!!

regards
Ged (aka Gerard )
gringo40s.com
gringo40s.blogspot.com

1385Squadron

many thanks for your kind words and
support it was quite a journey getting
these two volumes to final print but
worth all the effort!
the printer/s did a wonderful job.

regards
Gerard
gringo40s.com
gringo40s.blogspot.com

Ged
I am very pleased that it has all come together. Please note any errors or mistakes. We can deal with those in a subsequent print run.

Well done and I am glad you had a great day at Salute. I really liked your new 28mm series. I think the Napoleonic Generals will be a good seller.
Stephen

Stephen & Ged,

I guess you have a copy of the 1803 regulation? I only have what I can find online…

link

There it appears to state directly after the regimental staff, which is general for all cavalry regiments, that…

No habrá Portaestandartes en los regimientos de Caballería ligera, porque estos regimientos carecen de estandartes.

There will be no standard-bearers in the Light Cavalry regiments, because these regiments lack standards.

And even…

regimientos de ligera mantendrán un estandarte para los actos protocolarios, que estará también adscrito al quinto escuadrón y que, en su caso, lo llevará el Cadete más antiguo

light regiments retain a standard for ceremonial events, which will be attached to the fifth squadron and will, in such cases, be carried by the oldest Officer Cadet.

So my interpretation is that they were issued with 4 standards (one per squadron) prior to 1803 but only one was retained for ceremonial occasions after 1803. They had no standard-bearers as such but retained the 4 Cornets (2nd Lt) on the organization.

Does this sound reasonable?
Keith

Dear Keith
Alas we did not have the 1803 regulations. Thank you for clarifying the situation. Yes retaining one standard for ceremonial occasions makes a great deal of sense.

I think your translation as cornet is far better as it was a rank and not whether they carried a standard. Alas I was using information from Nafziger who at times is a bit hit and miss with translations. I could not find the organisation from a primary source at the time.

Thank you for your input.
Stephen

Stephen

Great sale and a second print already. That is good news. Now you know because of this I have to ask-will the price of the second print copies be reduced in any way?

Dear Sir
The price of the book is up to the publisher and retailers. I certainly have no influence upon that being meerly one of the authors. I would doubt there would be a reduction in the price and in fact printing costs increased over 30% from the printing of the Spanish Infantry in 2014 with the new printer. Therefore the margins for the publisher have been severely squeezed to bring it to you at such a reasonable price of £35.00 GBP

It should be noted that my other hardback volumes are now priced at £37.50 GBP. Of course events in June in UK may increase the price further with added VAT on books or excise duty having to be added for EU customers.
Stephen

Stephen

Does that mean the price will reduce or rise if we leave the EU. The answer to this could well affect my voting.

Dear John
The addition of VAT and excise duty is a great concern. This is not the place to discuss politics of that manner.
Stephen

Stephen

But it could be considered Napoleonic in a sense, since leaving or staying in the EU, may affect the sales and prices of books and miniatures, which in turn would affect us members and yourself as a Napoleonic historian-writer?

Anyway, I am interested in the Spanish and hope to obtain both your Spanish titles at some point, whatever happens in June.

I have both copies on the way and cannot wait to get them. I'll share my thoughts after seeing them.

Terry

Dear Terry
We look forward to hearing your thoughts.
Stephen

Terry37…..they are well packed and should be with you
very soon! thanks for the dual purchase!

regards
Ged
aka (Gerard Cronin)
gringo40s.com
gringo40s.blogspot.com
Gringo40s facebook and Twitter

Terry37

That will be much appreciated, although I do hope you are able to share the details before the EU vote. LOL

Gazzola
Something to consider.
link
Stephen

Hi Gazzola, Stephen!
I live in Sweden.
Buying wargames stuff in Sweden is tricky because there isn't much to choose from.
Buying from outside the EU gives me both an extra tax cost and an extra tax handling time.
So I mailorder just about everything from the UK – Ken Trotman in the case of these two books.
If there was a Brexit, I would seriously need to start looking at other EU countried instead of the UK.
BR
Keith

Summerfield's posting merits its own topic. OK, we know it could be argued as political, but if poor President Obama can make a simple comment about this, why cannot we?

Try ordering from Eureka in OZ. Duty must be paid, but you, the purchaser, must pay it. Except you cannot, till the order arrives in UK. But our postal system impounds it, until you do pay duty. So you must pay a penalty to them, plus the duty….then drive 20 miles to collect them….when the depot is open, of course. That is why we so desperately seek out local folk, prepared to import and just charge us the VAT.

Same thing with Brigade Miniatures, which I would love to try……

The point is that this is a massive problem for us right now, for anything from outside the EU. Imagine what could happen in the summer………

Stephen

Thanks for that. Much appreciated. Maybe us wargamers will make the difference?

deadhead

It is political but it is also wargaming and Napoleonic related if it means we might have to pay more for whatever we want to purchase in future.

To get this thread back on topic, I have a few questions about the books. I think they're great, so if you sell enough to be able to do a second edition, maybe you can look at the following…

Book 1 – Infantry p.26

II/Voluntarios de Cataluña – shouldn't this be be 1º Voluntarios de Cataluña

Book 2 – Cavalry p.54

You show the hat lace of all regiments as white but many sources (Knötel, Bueno) suggest that it was the same as the button colour.

Book 2 – Cavalry p.146

n May 1710 – Poor proofreading, you are missing the O

Book 2 – Cavalry p.146

Each Company had 30 men in peacetime and 105 men during the war.

I think this should be…

Each Company had 105 men during the war and had 30 fewer in peacetime.

Source: Memorial Histórico de la Artillería Española – Ramón de Salas y Cortés p.44

Book 2 – Cavalry p.146

Each battery had six guns with 68 draft horses

In your text, this seems to apply even to the foot artillery which I think is wrong. I think it should be…

Each battery of horse artillery was to be provided with 68 draft horses, being the number required for the six cannon. Horses for the ammunition caissons were not needed for training in times of peace, but were to be purchased when war was declared.

Source: Memorial Histórico de la Artillería Española – Ramón de Salas y Cortés p.44

BR
Keith

I've been collecting Spanish Armies for quite a time, in multiple scales (obviously!!), and have gathered lots of notes. I've written up a few of them and put them on the web at…

link

Maybe you'll find them interesting!

Dear Keith
Thank you for your comments and corrections. We will note these down for a revised edition.
Stephen

keith

Many thanks for your observations and input
and a most interesting site……..

regards
Ged (Gerard Cronin)
gringo40s.com
gringo40s.blogspot.com

keithbarker

Very help and much appreciated. I guess it might well be worth waiting for the revised editions to become available, which would also give time to sort the funding for the two titles.

Gazola,
The suggestions I make are very small, bordering perhaps on the pedantic.
I think the first editions were well worth the money I paid for them – IMHO don't wait, get them while you can!
BR
Keith

keithbarker

If you have spotted errors then they may contain more, not yet noticed. All books contain errors, of course, and they are still on my to-get list, but certainly not at the top. Yes, I would love both Spanish titles, but the prices would have to reduce somewhat for them to rise up the list or at the least until I manage to obtain those presently above them. If they become unavailable, such is life and I don't think it would worry me that much. The net, questionable as it sometimes is and as much as I would prefer books, it often makes up for unobtainable books and information.

Mes Amis,

Greetings from the the very snowy centre of France.

Splendid exchange!

Share others concerns about poor proof-reading.

Also wondered if others have any good pointers for Spanish troops in 28mm?

Suppose it should be a new thread so I shall start one.

Cheers,

Paul

The first book was excellent and I will certainly get the second.
To add to the confusion on hussars standards or not, both square standards and light cav guidons for Usares Espanoles are preserved, illustrated in a book I have.
Cavalry standards usually have lace in button colour, by the way (I know all this because I finally got round to giving my 26 Spanish cavalry regiments their standards – because my Photoshop will no longer work when I upgrade to Windows 10).

Keith, you may be interested to know that, before the 1808 autumn campaign, the two (small) Tejas tercios were used to form the base for the regiments Bailen and Navas de Tolosa, and the cavalry went on to become Cazadores de Sevilla. Can't look up sources right now because not at home. Balien and Navas de Tolosa were considered among the best regiments in the Army of the Centre and were in the rearguard when it retreated after Tudela, fighting a rearguard action at Bubierca.

Many "new" regiments were in fact raised on parts of existing regiments (usually the understrength depot 2nd battalion).

This has wargaming implications. We all (I think) tend to give one performance rating to regulars and another to new or 'levy.' In fact (without getting into militia) it's more like a cline:
- regular with few recruits (eg Army of Galicia at Median del Rio Seco)
- regular, with up to 50% new recruits (Army of Centre at Bailen, most regular units in autumn 1808)
- regular, but stuffed with new recruits (eg. Somosierra except Cordoba)
- new, formed on a weak 2nd battalion/squadron or existing force (like Tejas)-
- new, formed on a tiny company cadre (e.g. Asturians: some 20 batts formed on Provincal de Oviedo and a battalion of Hibernia)
- new, from scratch (e.g. much of Army of Extremadura)

A bit complicated, of course.
Thanks again for an interesting thread.

Teodoro,

My notes say: "On 12th August 1808 one tercio was converted to the Batallon de Cazadores de Bailen and the other to Batallon de Cazadores de Las Navas de Tolosa."

Two great Spanish victories!

Where I differ from you, is that you write regiments which to me suggests line infantry rather than light infantry battalions.

Dear Keith,
Yes light. Sorry to confuse.The Tejas tercios were light.
There was a Bailen line regt but:
- Buenos lists CAZADORES de Bailen and de Navas de Toloa, next to each other, single batts – formed September.
- Gomez Ruiz & Alonso Juanola (El Ejercito de los Borbones, Mininsterio de Defensa) p14 say Batallon for both, formed in mid September – and confirm Bailen founded on 1st Tercio, Navas de Tolosa on 2nd. Says both lost so many at Uclés in Jan 1809 that they were merged into Murcia (line or course).
Must stop

Just arrived in the post today, so really good service from Ken Trotman again.

Great resource and a perfect companion to the infantry volume.

Well done Gerald and Stephen, I really appreciate having this in my library.

I have received both of my copies – infantry and cavalry/artillery. I've been studying uniforms for well over 50 years and a major focus has been the Napoleonic Wars and I can truly say this is one of the best set of reference books on the Spanish for eh time period covered I've ever found.

I can only hope they will continue their work forward and cover the later years of the war in the Peninsula.

Thank you Ged and Stephen!

Terry