"Higher Level WWII Gaming: What's the Most Most Popular" Topic

So I game mainly game skirmish commanding a platoon or sometimes commanding a company or two in more tactical level. But I'm interested in trying out a more strategic higher level possibly commanding a Brigade (US Brigade if there's a difference)Not sure what's out there or if it's a popular level.

To be honest I played a little Axis and Allies (board game) and I thought it would be nice to try something in between my skirmish and it.

I've played Crossfire, IABSM, Battlegroup and Fireball Forward but would like to try something at a larger scale of conflict

Any recommendations would be very welcome.

Thanks

Have you tried Spearhead?

I would really recommend Panzer Korps. The rules take a little bit of getting used to, but they really represent warfare at this level – it's not just playing with platoons and calling them battalions. And it has four or five really nice rules mechanisms which go together to give a very different sort of game – as you would hope from such a different level, where you are playing a Brigadier or Major General instead of a Major or Colonel.

Have you tried Spearhead?

No but I've just googled it now…

"The goal of SPEARHEAD is to allow play using a minimum of several Battalions up to an entire Division on a side. To enable this scope we have abstracted details which we feel are inconsistent with the level of command that Spearhead stresses. We are chiefly concerned with the operations of Battalions, which are the building blocks of Divisions. Once opposing Battalions are within fighting range, SPEARHEAD assumes the combat is taking place within a flexible combat area, where local Company and Platoon Commanders are making tactical decisions for you. In SPEARHEAD, you are a Division or Brigade commander and we keep your focus right there"

Sounds like it might be the level that I'm looking for alright.

A lot of my WWII wargaming is up another level still, commanding Corps and Armies in Operational Games like NQM or Megablitz where you are really running the show …

Phil
P.B.Eye-Candy

it's not just playing with platoons and calling them battalions

That's something I've thought of already, in the past I've played certain games controlling Company's and it honestly won't have made any difference if they were were were representing squad's.

I would really recommend Panzer Korps.

I second Panzer Korps, it really does well representing Operation level games at the scale of multiple Divisions and Armies.

A lot of my WWII wargaming is up another level still, commanding Corps and Armies in Operational Games like NQM or Megablitz where you are really running the show

Again Phil this might suit me; I really don't know exactly what will fit yet. I've never tried anything at higher levels. Playing Rommel or Monty certainly has an attractive element to it.

I'll check your site. Thanks

Not for the gearheads but i did write a Brigade version of FiveCore you know ;-)

@Weasel

I'm very new to the genre so you'll forgive me for not realizing this either :)

Another question as I look through all these recommendations:

Do they all require minis or do anyone use unit cards?

The smalls minis I own are 15mm but I really prefer the idea of using cards while representing larger units

Each stand is a company, with platoon sized attachments, a brigade on the table, play in an hour to hour and a half.

Okay, enough advertisement :-)

At the big scales, you could make unit cards.
We used to do that, printing out photos and laminating them.

I've always wanted to try Panzer Korps, just haven't gotten around to it yet.

Command Decision fits the bill. Stands are platoons of infantry, guns or tanks. Excellent rules for command and control, morale. The newest edition, Test of Battle, is streamlined and contains some good new stuff….particularly suppression from HE fire. There is a modern version still kicking around (combined arms) and there are also modern stats accessible via their forum. There is a WW1 version as well: Over the Top.

Panzer Korps is very good at simulating actions at the Corps and Army level.

rapid fire

I play Panzer Korps and would definitely recommend them, they are excellent for all of the reasons already stated. I really great set of rules – you need to overcome some poor editing in the rules but it very much worth the effort.

I also play the 5core Brigade rules (although I play Cold War Gone Hot with these rules they do cover WW2). Wesael's rules have a particular feel and have some beautifully elegant mechanisms which give a very quick game. I am looking to play some WW2 with these rules but I would strongly recommend them for post WW2.

For brigade(ish) sized actions there is a fair degree of choice, very commonly using 1 base = 1 platoon. If forced to pick just three I'd probably go with Command Decision, Spearhead and Rapid Fire with an honourable mention for Blitzkrieg Commander.

While SH is marketed as a divisonal game, it works better at brigade level unless you've got all day to play.

5Core Brigade Commander is well worth a look, at a slghtly higher level of representation (company stands) so it plays faster than the above sets.

I second Megablitz.

Field of Battle WWII is set at the same level as Panzer Korps. Aside from being in love with the mechanics of the rules I really am excited by the fact that I do not need the 30 extraneous vehicles for non combat purposes ala Command Decision and even Panzer Korps. Another really nice extra is that the Panzer Korps scenarios easily can be used with FOB WWII.

Thanks,

John

A few others nobody else has mentioned:

Div Tac, a free set of rules by Ian Shaw. Stands are companies, 1 cm = 1 km. This is the only set of WWII rules I've ever seen that differentiates artillery missions by national doctrines and mission types, details I consider critically important above the micro-tactical level. To be fair, there may be other rules that also do this, but not among the fast-playing, higher-level rules listed here, with the possible exception of 5Core Brigade Commander, which I've never seen. Div Tac looks very close to what I was developing myself, so it's at the top of my "try someday" rules.

Great Battles of WWII by Bruce McFarlane. This has grown over time to a set of three scenario/rule packages with the same shared core rules: Vol 1: The Canadians in Europe, Vol 2: Drop Zone and Vol 3: Invasion '40. Stands represent companies, but operate in units of battalion size. This is the only set of WWII rules I know of where battalion formations matter. It is also carefully written to properly simulate the pace of WWII battles, so divisional actions actually can last multiple (simulated) days or even weeks.

Division Commander, also by Bruce McFarlane. High level operational rules, each stand is a battalion, 3"/mile. These are on my "must try someday" list. These were written after the GBOWW2 system, so I expect the same attention to pacing and streamlining, but I haven't done more than glance at them, so can't confirm.

Operation Brevity by Phil Yates (yes, the FOW guy). Operational level, each stand is a battalion, plays pretty quickly. I liked this game a lot and played it several times, but eventually decided that it needed a little more development, and the one-unit-at-a-time activation system was just too slow for the kind of big, sprawling, multiplayer games I wanted to play. OpBrevity was a free html download for a long time, but seems to have been pulled down long ago. I can't find it on the web anymore, which is sad. It's got a lot of really good thinking behind it, and even if you never play it, you should read it. If anyone wants a copy, PM me a request with your email address and I'll email you a PDF. Phil Yates wrote these rules to use with large scale miniatures on diorama bases so the measurements are all large and assume large 4" stands, so I created a customized PDF based on 1" stands for my microarmor collection which I can also forward.

Kampfgruppe Commander, now up to version II. Stands are platoons. I played several games of KC I when it was new, and I generally liked it, though I thought it was a bit slow and cumbersome, and typical of this genre, way too bloody (battles typically end with one side severely reduced and unable to continue, in less than a simulated day). I would have been happy to play it more, but it never gained any traction in my region.

FWIW, KC is a development of Clash of Armor, a Clash of Arms game long since out of print. The activation system in CoA worked differently and gave a different feel to the proceedings, so CoA is effectively a different game with many shared mechanics. See this posting for a good synopsis by Marc33594.

- Ix

All good choices Yellow Admiral.

Another vote for Panzer Korps as well.

John you mention 30 odd extraneous vehicles for non-combat purposes in Panzer Korps. Could you give some examples? All vehicles in Panzer Korps either serve a direct combat role, modify combat values or serve as transports. Not sure I can find many, if any extraneous vehicles.

Gentlemen I really appreciate the suggestions.

Panzer Korps is high on my list as its an obvious favorite here (at least 6 favourable mentions). Couldn't find a lot of info on it however and since it's not available as a pdf if possible I'd like a little more info before I take a full plunge

I read where each stand represents a company but it's smallest unit is a battalion which is composed of 3 company stands but they act as one for firing and morale.

Just a couple of observations I have come across that I might see as potential problems:

At Corp or Army level I saw where it might have ranges for individual infantry AT weapons etc

Just wondering is this true?
I kind of thought this would be a superfluous consideration of a Corp Commander

Also read where several owners of the game were instantly turned off by the amount of charts.

Again just wondering does it have an unusual amount of tables for a game of this level or is it par for the course? If so I wouldn't necessarily see this as major problem unless it creates a serious sluggishness to gameplay.

I did get my hands on a second hand copy of Command Decision 1st Edition and am in the process of reading it. Looks interesting. Does anyone know if there's many changes with the new edition

Some more interesting info on Panzer Korp in an earlier thread I just came across.

Units are rated by morale, which is the key element of the game. A unit's morale determines which attack die you use, which morale die you use, and how many times it can recover from being Broken. Fire combat is interesting. The attacker must make an opposed die roll to hit and damage its target. The attacker roles a die based upon its morale grade, so a Militia unit roles a d6 while an Elite unit roles a d12 to hit. The defender rolls a Cover Die based upon covering terrain; open (d4), light cover (d6), type of tank (light, Med. Heavy) etc. The difference determines how many disorder markers the target takes, and can force a Panic Check. I have found that this mechanism works very well and keeps the game moving along.

There are also attached units hat provide fire support, and special units that are important in the game. A unit can have up to four attached companies that provide Fire Die bonuses, help recover Disorder markers, etc. Example, a Battalion with an attached HMG company (+2), Mortar Company (+1), AA Company and Medical Company would get a +3 on its Fire Die, force attacking aircraft to make a Morale Check to press a ground attack, and automatically remove one Disorder Marker per turn.

The rules are fairly comprehensive and cover all the basics of the period -- air superiority over the battlefield, ground attack, artillery, smoke, amphibious landings, fortifications, mines, engineers,supply, paratroopers, gliders, etc. They also include a nice set of rules on generating battles and battlefield terrain, basic army lists, equipment lists, and some sample battles and campaigns.

I've got Panzer Korps and have seen some really great AARs with it by my experience is that the rules are very poorly written.

I spend most of my time trying to decipher what is meant by the rules as written.

There's lots of snippets of rules written in sections not related to the rule and whole sections I've seen in comments from the author in the Yahoo Group where it seems he's completely made up sections and not put them in the rules.

There is also Krieg ohne Hass, Divisional/Corps level WW2 rules that are fast play and dynamic. No record keeping and designed for 1/600th and 1/300th scale miniatures.
Available on ebay, from Magister Militum and Caliver books.
Lance.

"Division Commander, also by Bruce McFarlane. High level operational rules, each stand is a battalion, 3"/mile. These are on my "must try someday" list. These were written after the GBOWW2 system, so I expect the same attention to pacing and streamlining, but I haven't done more than glance at them, so can't confirm."

DC is largely a reworked version of KISS Rommel with a lot of Bruce fluff added (and the AK47v1 victory conditions bolted on). They are OK, but KISS Rommel (and derivatives thereof) is both free and much faster playing.

"I did get my hands on a second hand copy of Command Decision 1st Edition and am in the process of reading it. Looks interesting. Does anyone know if there's many changes with the new edition"

Yes, lots, far too many to list here.

DC is largely a reworked version of KISS Rommel with a lot of Bruce fluff added (and the AK47v1 victory conditions bolted on). They are OK, but KISS Rommel (and derivatives thereof) is both free and much faster playing.

I've never seen KISS Rommel, and I completely forgot I'd heard of it before. I just downloaded it from here.

- Ix

Command Decision changed massively over time. The good news is, they're all pretty solid and very playable.

In some ways, CD is underwhelming to read, but delivers in play.
What I mean is, you'll read through it and go "oh, that's all?" but when you play it, it works very well.
Not a bad thing at all, but I bring it up, because I've seen some people read it and then dismiss it out of hand, which is a pity.

It's also a decent balance between gear-heads and the rest of us :)

I've read where Panzer Korps is a second edition later this year so hopefully some of the poor writing mentioned might be ironed out. HR promised a free copy of the second with a reciept if you purchase the rules off them presently

I was thinking of ordering them out Military MAtters but not sure yet if that offer is valid there

The offer mentioned is valid with any dealer

In my highly biased opinion I recommend Combat Command for "higher level" WWII gaming. A player can easily handle a battalion (each Stand represents roughly a platoon). So in a multi-player game you can create division level actions.

I'm running the Christmas Day attack at Siege of Augusta (in Augusta GA) over Martin Luther King B-day. Regiment of Volksgrienders + Kampgruppe from 15th PG v. Glider + Parachute battalions + 10th armored task force + supporting artillery (on table). Fair sized battle that can be completed in about 3-4 hours.

More complex than Rapid Fire but not nearly as complex as Command Decision. Rules can be taught in a Con environment. (And yes I've gotten rid of some of the stray vehicles that often clog Battalion level OBs).

Available through WargamesVault.

TomT

Thomas brings up a good point:
Read a battalion or above TO&E and you'll find all sorts of extra junk that you'll be hard pressed to find a use for, on a gaming table.

"okay, I move the 3rd tank company and their mobile assault coffee maker and tracked naval insertion roomba to the objective".

Prune some of the cruft and just focus on the guys that actually get to shoot at people :)

Sorry, just saw the question for me. I should have said like CD and to a much lesser degree PK. I am not a fan of commanding a Division or two and worrying about positioning of Battalion hvy weapons Companies and trucks or tractors. If I am a Corps Commander I am not concerned with such things, for the most part.

Thanks,

John

And, indeed, in PK you dont worry about those things. The smallest unit is a company BUT the smallest unit of maneuver and fire is the battalion. Companies are attached but they do not function separately and move with the battalion assigned to and modify the combat result.

As an example you might have an independent tank battalion in support of your infantry division as was common for US forces 44-45 in Northwest Europe. You can fight the tank battalion as one of your maneuver units. Or, as was commonly done, you can parcel the tank battalion companies out to support your infantry battalions. Now your infantry battalion would consist of 3 stands of infantry and 1 tank stand. In combat the tank company modifies the combat rolls of the infantry battalion, it does NOT fire or move separately. It is an easy way to do away with any book keeping.

Say the battalion comes up against a German tank battalion There is still only one combat and one roll. The tank company does not engage independently rather it modifies the anti tank roll of the infantry battalion. You could have also attached say the regimental anti-tank company as well. Now your battalion has 5 stands but it is still only one combat, one maneuver element.