"Kampfgruppe Commander II" Topic

Okay so I figured out this was the rules set I played at a demo during Historicon- Kampfgruppe Commander II. I really enjoyed the rules and the size of the battle.

What is the general consensus about the game? How does it compare to BKC and FOW? What 10/12mm figures are people using for WWII? Where can I get the rules? Any discussion groups or websites?

Thanks!
Neal

You can get the rules from Don Perrin of Historical Miniature Gamer magazine dperrin@mwan-magazine.com

As far as minis….I use Perrin minis from Noble Miniatures (available from The Last Square), as well as some Minifigs, available from Tom Dye at GFI. There is a 10mm historical discussion group at
10mm-Miniatures-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

as well as a Kampfgruppe Commander discussion group at

KampfgruppeCommander-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

I have not played BKC, but FOW does not do it for me…KGC has a much more realistic command and comtrol feel.

As the author of BKC (I promise not to be biased here!), if I had to compare BKC to KGC, I'd say BKC is slightly easier to play, but at the expense of some detail.

You can order KGCII directly from our True North Minis website at truenorthminis.com. Good gaming!

How does it compare with FoW?

I have, and have played both Kampfgruppe Commander and the original, Clash of Armor. I must say I far more preferred the command and control and procedures in Clash of Armor over Kampfgruppe Commander though some of the combat routines left something to be desired. I have not picked up KC II but will probably glance through it. If it uses the basic KC engine then will pass. I have had several friends who have suggested using the excellent command and control system from Clash of Armor and marrying it with a better combat system, such as perhaps Command Decision.

Can you tell us the differenc between the original Clash of Armor command & control rules and KGC's version?

Quick summary.

In Clash of Armor units activate via die roll. A unit may attempt to activate separately (if it fails its turn is done) or by its commander (failure uses up one of the commanders attempts but the unit may attempt to activate again via the commander if he has remaining orders to use.

In KC I you will roll each turn for a variable amount of points (pips) for your commander and units activate via expending those pips.

I found the COA system to more accurately simulate the uncertainty of battle for one thing. Just because a commander expends the point on a unit, it is possible that unit will still not activate. A look at a typical formation may help:

COA
A superior led Soviet Infantry Battalion with vetern troops:

Commander=+4 (5) Morale=9
Experience= Veteran
Activation/Fatigue
A Company 4/0
B Company 5/0
C Company 4/0
Hvy Weapons Company 5/0
82mm Mortar 4/0

Commander numbers are the modifier for leadership to activation roles (and morale) +4 and command number showing 5 "attempts". A company could attempt to activate itself, needing a 4 on a D10. If it failed its turn is done. The commander can expend one of his attempts with A company activating on an 8 on D10 (base 4 plus commanders +4). If it fails the commander may attempt again, using another command. Group orders are still possible (and necessary, an early war Soviet commander is usually some where around +2(2) and the units under his command 2-3!). Fatigue is NOT optional. This system shows to good effect inferior units (say Italians in North Africa) under superior leadership (those same Italians falling under German command). It also can model very good troops under uninspired leadership.

KC I did cut down on the number of die rolls needed in a turn and the modified command and leadership procedures did speed up the game but the game lost much of its flavor. For example if one has enough pips almost any activity is certain while in COA there is still that air of uncertainty at times.

This is a personal preference of course.

Of course, the above explanation goes a long way towards explaining why they changed it – CoA was just too bloody ocmplicated. Finer detailed, yes, but it make it hard to run larger games unless all the players were pretty experienced.

That was my experience, at least.

Actually I had no problem running games with newbies. A few examples and they were ready to go. I found I didnt care for the combat system however as I mentioned. And I found the unit activation system in COA no more complicated the KG I. Indeed I found players had more problems with Command Decision, for example, then COA.

I think that as long as the GM is experienced with a game system it can be explained and used fairly easily by players. The big problem is when someone tries to teach the game or run one and they dont really understand the rules.

It would be great to get a copy of the original rules for the C&C alone. I found KGCII to play just fine, and to have lots of atmosphere and to capture the uncertainty fine. I now prefer it to CDII, III, and I do not know about IV.

How do these rules compare to BattleFront?

Ok, whats changed from KGC I to KGC II?

Some of the unit ratings (smg stands no longer fire better at long range than in close combat) changed, and the artillery rules were modified to account for the superior American/British system of calling fire. There were a bunch of other tweaks that I can't recall off the top of my head.

All in all, KGC II is better than KGC I. However, KGC II was horribly edited, in that the new rules were added and not reconciled with the parts that didn't change. So the rules will say one thing in one place and something else on a different page, and yet another on the reference chart. My group has been playing this for years, but we still end up arguing and spending time deciphering Dave Reynold's prose and intent.

Anyone know where I can get a copy of these rules in the UK? Have looked all over, and they seem to be out of print.

Try warmodelling.co.uk as I think that is where I acquired my copy about 8 months ago.

I keep hearing about these rules and want to know more as well. Such as what is the scale of the game and is it detailed with charts or more free flowing type of system?

Doug

Interesting.

What is the basing/scale for KC II ?

For KCII the scale is one inch equals 100 yds. Each stand/vehicle is a platoon.
15mm figure are recommended on a 1 and 1/4 inch stand.

There are alternate scales for 6, 10, 20 and 25mm figures.

Command and control is at the company level. Quality matters. An experience company may be able to move twice and fire in a turn, whereas a reserve unit may only move or fire. This allows for battles where a German bn can hold off a reinforced Russian brigade.
Reserves will also matter as you acquire fatigue points while making those multiple move that slow you down, but they can be recovered. So you need to rotate your front line and reserve companies.

I just ordered a set from Panzer Depot. They were on sale for $20. USD I have the original publications and am looking forward to seeing the new ones and seeing what has changed.

BKC – Blitzkrieg Commander is 'it' for me still and those I game with all enjoy it very much. Just there right amount of control and confusion. Easy to remember and pick up again after breaks doing other things.

There are just so many WW2 rule sets available, that eventually we had to draw a line and say thats it! No more! Lets settle on something and stay with it.

BKC does NOT work for me, the Warmaster system does not have a W.W.II feel. Also you have to concentrate fire on one target to wear it down, this has a very attrition like feel, more akin to W.W.I. I prefer Kampfgruppe Commander or even CD Test of Battle for smaller W.W.II games For larger games Spearhead gives a realistic result and fast play. Sadly pretty pictures and marketing means FoW is now the most popular set of rules.

I found BKC and whatever its modern equivalent is named to be unacceptable due to the hugely annoying mechanic of having to put so many hits into a vehicle and if you did not achieve that number, the hits all magically disappeared the next turn. Whatever the spurious explanation for it, we could not get past the annoyance factor…

That's easy to fix in BKC. There are some good suggestions on their forum.

link

This is the one linked to:

At the end of the turn instead of simply removing hit dice roll a 'destroyed' dice is rolled and if the score is greater or equal to the hits but not suppressed dice then remove dice, if it's lower then the unit is destroyed. Same thing for suppressed dice but if the dice is equal to the hits then the unit stays suppressed with that number of hits.

Obviously the values could be changed to give a greater or lesser chance of being destroyed or remaining suppressed.

The different CinC between COA and KGC can be very important. In COA a unit can fail to act turn after turn if you keep rolling poorly. In KGC you can always make a particular unit act (provided it didn't use up its actions in the other players turn), but maybe at the expense of forgoing action by the rest of the battalion. It's a matter of preference. Solo, I like COA, but when playing with others they can get frustrated and walk away.