"New to Naval Miniatures" Topic

Okay, going to start off with the obvious. I'm new to miniature naval wargaming. I have played any number of strategic and tactical historical, and fantastical games computerized, and tabletop, and done a little bit in more fantastical settings with miniatures. While I'm an ex-tanker, my interest historically is 19th and early 20th century European history mostly, and when it comes to miniatures, WW I. I have been doing a lot of research on the subject, different systems, etc., and read a few posts here and other message boards, board game geek reviews, etc. Okay, enough table-setting. I have decided that what I really want is two sets of rules. Seekrieg 5's detail level, and support really appeals to me, and I will probably use it for solo play, and with one or two friends that can stand that level of 'rivet counting'. That said, I also want, and need a more approachable set of rules, and one that is more time-considerate in larger engagements. A few considerations: I've decided to go with 1/6000th scale figurehead miniatures. They aren't too expensive, they lend themselves to limited playing areas (like my extra bedroom), and won't be too out of scale with the scale of play (if you use 1:18,000). I have very limited interest in later aviation heavy eras of play, but if it accomodates this, while doing the other things well, all the better. I would like a system that handles maneuver, guns and torpedoes reasonably well, resolves quickly, and keeps the feel of naval combat away from being just another dice-rolling exercise. I would like a game that's reasonably well supported, as I have an interest in using Austrian, Turkish, Greek, French, Italian and navies in addition to the ubiquitous English German set-ups (eventually, not all at once). So far Fleet Action Imminent and Naval Thunder seem to have some appeal for this second system. Is there one you'd recommend over the other (and why)? Have I missed a system?

General Quarters 2 (GQ2).

Fleet Action Imminent and Naval Thunder are about equal in complexity, but FAI is a more streamlined system and possibly the most complete naval gaming system I've ever seen. Many people assume NT is easier, but in truth the part of the FAI rule book that covers the same core mechanics as NT is about the same number of pages. The extra dozens of pages of rules in the FAI book cover optional topics like submarines, minelaying, minesweeping, shore bombardments, landings, MTBs, airpcraft, weather, and on and on and on.

I personally dislike the "move by class" methodology of NT, because it can cause some odd situations that don't feel at all naval, but most of the time it works out just fine and nobody notices any problems.

NT seems more "instantly familiar" to most people. Some of the core mechanics in FAI can take a few turns to grasp because they're unfamiliar (esp. the somewhat non-linear use of d12 scores), but after a couple runs through they come naturally enough.

Both games are best with about a squadron per player, work okay with 2-3 squadrons per experienced player, and bog down beyond that. NT plays a little faster as written, but I think FAI can actually be sped up a bit, so I'm working on that (e.g. I converted from plotted movement to igo/ugo turn sequence, I use the "fleet" torpedo rules, etc.); it's possible NT can be too, but I don't care for it enough to try.

- Ix

Another vote for FAI.

Well I'd say GQ2, but you are unlikely to find it anywhere!

Firstly, thank you for the quick responses all. I keep seeing people liking GQ2, but not much detail, and of course it's out of print.

Never say die. Copies sold here and cheap.

link

I would recommend Battlestations Battlestations by Decision games. It is a WW2 set but there are plenty of WW1 era ships in the lists so it would be fairly easy to convert to a WW1 format. It handles LARGE fleet actions well and is a very big hit with my group of wargaming friends.
link
Also available from FRP games and probably OMM
Some reviews
link
TMP link
TMP link
An AAR
TMP link
After having played them several times with friends now they are very abstract but give a fast playing game that rewards good naval tactics and the end results were quite believable. We just fought a naval engagement with over 40 ships and had a result in 3 hours. You will not get that speed of play even with GQ2 which I do own and like.

I do not see it in their current catalog so may be sold out. Check with them first.

GQ2 is currently OOP (that's per the publisher, Navwar, and the author, Lonnie Gill) and has been for several years. Tony (Navwar) has looked at a reprint over the last few years but nothing has come of it. (It may show, fitfully, on the Navwar website, but that's unreliable since Tony (the last of the Luddite retailers) doesn't keep it updated.

Best option is the secondary market (ebay, etc). And I'd keep an eye on the TMP Marketplace; joes shop had one listed just 2 months ago.

As for Battlestations!Battlestations!: I have it (and its a good game), but its STRICTLY for WWII. All the WWI ships in it are the WWII refits. And, of course, it doesn't have all the ships that were already scrapped by WWII.

For me, of the rules that are available, FAI scores highest. The base rules include a whole load of stuff (as Yellow Admiral noted) and the rules are very well supported. The navies that come with the rules are the British, German, Austro-Hungarian, Italian and Russian. There's a Supplement that adds the US, French, Turkish, Greek, Japanese, Argentinian, Brazilian and Chilean navies.

The rules are quick to learn (I've had newbies up and running in a few turns) and give a good feel for the period.

Yes you are correct in your points Charlie 12, but I still stand by my claim that it would not be that difficult to figure out a WW1 force from the lists and gun systems listed in the rules. If you look at the TMP links some people had already done that although I have not found any of them posted on the internet. I wish I could get ahold of the author of the rules to talk to him about this.

Grand Fleets from Majestic XII is perhaps simpler and more streamlined than you are looking for, but does include the rules and formulas to construct any real world ship of the era into game mechanics.

There is a free preview of the rules on the MJ12 website that is comprehensive enough to give you a feel for how the game plays.

I use it with 1:6000 miniatures and a Hotz mat hex map and it fits on a 5x3 foot table.

I like GQ2/FAI as well. FAI is the 2nd gen GQ2. GQ2 is slightly simpler, but the basic mechanics are the same.

Thank you all. I have decided to go with FAI. I will let you know how the first test games go. I will share some pictures off the first minis off the line.

Cheers from Michigan.

I'm not sure of the differences between FAI and GQ2, but I would certainly recommend GQ2 (and therefore FAI if I knew it!)

For WW1, GQ has handy 'fleet' rules so that one data card (still the best designed damage cards even after 30 odd years) can represent 2 light cruisers or 4 destroyers. Capital ships are still 1:1, which is after all what players want.

I also like Battlestations! Battlestations! for big WW2 actions but haven't tried/amended it for WW1.

Nick

Sundance said:

FAI is the 2nd gen GQ2. GQ2 is slightly simpler, but the basic mechanics are the same.

Uh… no, that's incorrect. The GQ3 system (used by FAI) is different in almost every respect from the original GQ1 system (used by GQ2). The only things I can think of that didn't change are the ground scale, time scale, and author's name. I really wish L.L. Gill had chosen a different name than "General Quarters" for GQ3, because it's almost nothing like the original game and it's misleading to suggest a lineage.

I also wish GQ2 were still in print, because it's still a good game, still worth playing, and a lot of us still like it. There's really no good reason not to move GQ1 and GQ2 into a PDF-only or print-on-demand service like Lulu or Wargamevault. <sigh>

- Ix