"Werewolves? " Topic

I'd like to know more about the strength and powers of the Werewolves in comparison to Vampires. What kind of "Queen of the Damned" equivalants do they have? How strong are they compared to Vampires? Better fighters or not? What sort of Magic Powers do they have? What about weaknesses?

The reason I want to know is this: I'm trying to design a LOTR System Scenario based on a Detective stuck in the middle of a Vampire vs. Werewolf battle in 1920s America (New York City).

LOL, I know the story probably sounds dumb, but let me explain: in my World, the War of Vampires and Werewolves has been going on, unseen, for thousands of years. Finally, it breals out into the Human Conciousness and goes on with a third combatant. Again, pretty stupid, but I still want to try it.

It's not even a fair fight.

Look at what werewolves are vulnerable to: Silver. That's it. Silver is the only thing that hurts them. How many silver swords or bullets do you have lying around the house, probably not many.

Meanwhile Vampires are hurt by, among other things, water. They can't cross moving water. If they get hit by holy water they get all messed up.

Crosses keep vampires at bay. They can't go into peoples homes without permission. They have all kinds of hang ups.

Plus werewolves are stronger, have better jumping skills and have worse breath. I would guess that a were wolf could probably stun an average human at 20 paces with it's breath alone.

So if the werewolf bathes in holy water and attaches some crosses to itself it will take on all comers in a fight with vampires.

Of course if we're not just talking about a straight up "put up your dukes" type fight then I may have to give the edge to vampires because they are pretty clever.

They have magic powers, like hypnosis. They can turn into wolves, too. Or bats. Or clouds of mysterious looking gas. All werewolves can do is emit clouds of gas. Sometimes vampire scented ones.

Vampires can also use weapons, like tommy guns. If they are actively hunting down werewolves then they would probably win because they could make some silver bullets. Something the less-than-agile hands of the werewolf would probably fail at.

But if they just bumped into each other on the steet, my money is on the werewolf.

Wow, that's good info. Anyway, I'm using altfritz's LOTR system Vampire stats, like so:

VAMPIRE
F5 S4 D8 A3 W3 C6 M2 W14 F2

Special Rules: All Ringwraith powers (modified somewhat).

And they're not bound by Water, entering houses and stuff like that. Not because I think it's crappy, just because this is a Modern Age scenario I'm thinking of, and people just aren't used to Vampires anymore, so they have different effects on them.

I think a lot of it depends on the genre of the werwolf and the vampire.

Most common werewolves traits are the need to hunt and kill, severe allergic reaction to silver, deadly if taken internally, the ability to shrug off most injuries in a matter of moments, keen senses and an above average animal intelligence.

Most vampires common traits are the need for blood, killed/weakened by sunlight, dislike of garlic, burned by holy items, ie crosses, holy water, bones of a saint. Death by beheading and/or a stake through the heart.

Now from here you can start adding other things to get the correct feel. For example, the true historical point of a stake through the heart was not to kill the vampire, but to keep it pinned in place so it could not rise from the grave, move or resist, once it was staked, it was immoblized. The you could behead it and burn it. Historically that was how you killed a vampire. All sunlight did was limit it's powers so it was nearly mortal during daylight hours in daylight.

I don't think being a vampire neccessarily made you smarter, only the clever ones managed to survive longer.

Different powers like changing form, hypnotism, control of the weather and animals, all of that is open to interpretation of what you want your particular vampire to be like.

Werewolves could retain more of their "human" intelligence, which would make sense if you wanted an war, a mindless animal would likely not want to eat a vampire as it is already dead. Maybe a werewolf is fast enough to ripped the head off a vampire, but I can't think of any real justification for a werewolf to kill a vampire just because it is a werewolf, maybe if the werewolf tore enough limbs off, the vampire could no longer defend itself, but vampires suppossedly move very fast and are very strong.

But if want a war, you are going to have to carefully consider the strength and weakeness' of each so one is capable of destroying the other.

my thoughts
GAR

Exactlly, Dread Pirate Garness. I want to have a balanced fight between the two races, not a blow-out victory by one or the other.

You may wanna look at White Wolf's stuff for an idea of how to balance vampires vs werewolves. But a nutshell version is:

Straight up hand to hand combat, vampire loses, not badly but more often then not (Barring certian skills etc..). Vampires tend to win more by being sneaky and using their intelligence. IE, post the werewolf as a felon and have the cops take care of it.

-Chris

Check out your local used book store for Werewolf the apocalypse. It has some different ideas concerning werewolf lore.

With vampires you can put them at almost any power level and not be wrong. Some writers put them as super powered flying blood sucking wall smashing monsters. Others have them as being not much stronger then humans with just a few powers like hypnosis.

Watch the movie "Underworld". Set in a near future type setting it has a number of good gaming ideas.

In answer to the title of the thread:

"There wolves. There castle."

"Why are you talking like that?"

"I don't know, you started it."

I'll second the suggestion to watch UNDERWORLD.

imdb.com/title/tt0320691

Vamps:
Repelled by a cross.
Repelled by galic.
Cannot cross running water.
Die if exposed to sunlight.
Require an invitation to cross the thresh-hold of a house
Can be hurt by silver tipped/edged weapons.
Can be hurt by Holy Water.
Killed by a wooden stake driven into the heart. But, to avoid resurection of the vamp, the head must be cut off also.
Can transform from human to vamp at will.
Can take the form of a bat, wolf or cloud of smoke.
Require human protectors during the day, which is when they sleep.
Have the power to hypnotize.
Can create other vamps by a mutual blood drinking and biting cermony.
Increase in strength and power as they older.
Are effectively immortal so long as a supply of food (humans) is available.

Werewolves:
Repelled by wolfsbane.
Can be hurt by silver tipped/edged weapons.
Can only transform from human to werewolf during the full moon.
Do not generally retain their human intellect when in wolf form.
Anyone bitten by a werewolf (assuming they live) becomes a werewolf at the next full moon.

Both creatures can be driven away by angry mobs of peasants brandishing pitchfoks and flaming brands.

All things being equal (which they never are), in a fight I would bet on the vampire.

Hmmmm... one wonders would a werewolf be hurt by a silver inlaid blade?

If one views the immunity as some sort of magical armor, then the inlay probably doesn't have the structural strength to do any meaningful damage.

If, OTOH, it is an extremely fast recovery/regeneration from wounds, hampered by an allergic reaction to silver... then the silver inlaid blade becomes a "realistic" choice.

I read a book several years ago (stop laughing, you know what I mean) that had a vampire hiring a private investigator. The vampires needed to find a vampire slayer. In this version of the story the vampire explained to the PI that many of the traditional weaknesses were just folk tales.

They were alergic to silver but crosses didn't bother them. That story got started because so many people wore crosses made of silver in the middle ages. Vampires were't much faster then humans but could make someone think they were by hypnosis. Simply make a person forget they are moving until to late. The entering people's homes bit was just made up to make people feel safe. Very interesting book. Wish I could remember it's name. I did add a long term vampire foe to a RPG I was running at the time.

Vampires can excercise mental control over werewolves

Your book sounds like Barbara Hambly's "Those Who Hunt the Night" , also called "Immortal Blood". Or at least her book is along reasonably similar lines.

If you call out the true name of the person that is in Wolf form, it can no longer attack you...or something. I've never tried it.

i here the same thing all the time,"vampires of weakend by silver,crucifixes,holywater etc...

vampires are NOT hurt and/or weakend by silver,but some might be allergic to copper.

holy items have no effect becuase some vampires predate christianity.

sunlight does kill WEAK vampires but only weakens others.

garlic have no effect.

steaks do immobilize vampires and pin them them to theres spots but once taken out them free to go again.

vampires DO move at supersonics speeds.

DO possess great intelligence.

vampires CANNOT shapeshift.(only from human to vampire)

bodies of water,running fosets etc. have no effect.

not all vampires are dead.(the most common vampire is the nosferatu, which is the dead vampire, thats why people seam to think they're all dead)

they do have psychic abilities,but differs from vampire to vampire.

DO have razer like claws.

vampires have the strength of 100+ men.(well,most of them)

are not immortal.

same statistical size/weight of a human.

NOW ON TO WEREWOLVES.

not affected by silver.

not affected by holy items.

not affected by garlic.

CANNOT shake of MOST injuries within a matter of moments.

still possess all of his/hers itelligence during transformation.

are statisticaly 50% stronger than a vampire.

in a height range and weight comparable to a human (rare), but normally over 6ft tall to 7ft+ and weigh between 250lbs. to sometimes overs 500lbs.

are not immortal.

Both are good combatants and bring good weapons, strategy, and skill to the fight.they are almost equally matched,brains vs. bronze, and is near impossible to tell who will win right off the bat.i mean if the werewolf gets close enough it could probably rip the vampire to shreds,or the werewolf might step into a trap the vampire clverly designed,and all other possible out comes.It just all depends on whose feeling lucky or who has the right moves.

but seriously my money would go to the vampire.brains will almost always prevail over bronze.

Why in the world is this on the WWI board?

[StReNtHoFaHuNdReDmEn]

[ here the same thing all the time,"vampires of weakend by silver,crucifixes,holywater etc...]
It seems like you are stating that as if its all hogswash and mere rumor...but I fail to see how anyone could KNOW what a vampire or werewolf truly is? Unless of course you have met one.

In regards to what Vampires/Werewoves can and cannot do I wouldnt say so strongly that one CAN or CANNOT do something, or IS or IS NOT immune/allergic to something else. Being that the conversation seems to be about their mythical powers/flaws and they, after all, mythical creatures.

Its really all dependant upon the history/mythology you want to believe. AND PLEASE remember when it comes to fictional creatures you do have what is called "Creative License."

Lets take a look:

[holy items have no effect becuase some vampires predate christianity.]
If you believe Dracula was the first Vampire, this is not a true statement as Vlad Tempes lived in during the 15th century. However you do not HAVE to believe he was the first. Perhaps just the most famous. link

[vampires are NOT hurt and/or weakend by silver,but some might be allergic to copper.]
If they can be allergic to copper, then why can't they be allergic to silver? Where does copper come into the storyline as being one of their allergies? The Cross I understand as the Vampire is supposed to be souless, an unholy abomination. But copper?

[sunlight does kill WEAK vampires but only weakens others.]
I would say this would be totally up to the game creator. By all ancient legendary accounts, Vampires were destroyed by sunlight. It wasn't until later writings that Older vampires could withstand sunlight. Much like Zombies weren't renowned for running until recently.

[steaks do immobilize vampires and pin them them to theres spots but once taken out them free to go again.]
Again, depends on which legends you want to believe. In some legends its used precisely as described, to incapacitate the vampire so the true slaying can commence. In other versions of the myth a stake alone is all you need.

[vampires DO move at supersonics speeds.]
They DO? I suppose if Anne Rice is the expert, then yes they do. Or do they actually have a form of short range teleportation? Perhaps they have the mystical ability to step through one shadow and out of another giving the illusion of supersonic speed???

[not all vampires are dead.(the most common vampire is the nosferatu, which is the dead vampire, thats why people seam to think they're all dead)]
They aren't? Check the Definition of a Vampire: link

Unless the whole world is wrong as to what it believes a vampire is of course.

[Are not immortal]
Well in all mythologies a vampire can be killed..however according to most if the Vampire is not physcially destroyed then it has the potential to live forever.
Mind you I am not saying that the statement is incorrect just that it is not common mythology, So if you were writting a fictional piece and wanted some vampires to not be dead, then go ahead and do it!

As for Werewolves: I would say...Common Mythology says they are Allergic to Silver and wolvesbane. And haev to agree that I have never seen them allergic to garlic or holy items..However, if you wanted to give a brand new reason for teh werewolf existing I could very easily see religion being tied into the plotline.

[CANNOT shake of MOST injuries within a matter of moments.]
Everything I have read or seen has always given such an impression that the great physical strength allows them to do precisely that.

[are statisticaly 50% stronger than a vampire]
According to what? Some other game? I find it a little silly to give statistics for creatures that don't exist unless it is within a game. And then the % really should depend on the game and how the designer wants the balance the creatures.

Just my two cents. I have to leave work now be home soon.

StReN *G* tHoFaHuNdReDmEn

Sorry, I know you spent some time on the clever capitalization, but there you go.

A funny thing about Werewolves is that in French and Québecois lore, they are deeply tied into religion (not going to church in the first place turns them into the loup garou, and a crucifix will repulse them) and they cannot easily shake off their wounds despite their great strenght (the loup garou would keep all the wounds from his transformed form, enabling others to identify him during the day).

[I'll second the suggestion to watch UNDERWORLD.]

I would definately recommend that movie for what you are looking for. While I didn't really care for the movie all that much...Really seemed like a WW WOD ripoff, it did give some good reasons for a war between Werewolves and Vampires.

"sunlight does kill WEAK vampires but only weakens others"

...unless they are using George Hamilton's exclusive 1000 SPF Sun Block... !

(Sorry, just being facetious... ;)

LMAO...

The funny thing is George Hamilton was Dracula in "Love at First Bite" - 1979 (HYSTERICAL!) and even he couldn't go out in the sun...LOL.

God, now I want to watch that movie again!

imdb.com/title/tt0079489 For those that have never seen it. I highly recommend it, a classic vampire comedy.

Back to topic...

Legend: Vampires must sleep in dirt for their:

A) Homeland
B) Original Grave

GrimeyGames, im not saying that garlic,sunlight etc. wont hurt EVERY vampire or werewolf.im just saying they are myths,but some CAN be allergic to garlic as some humans are allergic to cats.

no,dracula was not the first vampire i dont even know why you would bring that up...

the copper thing is true.

vampires ARE NOT abombinations.

sunlight DOES NOT hurt all vampires, ever hurt of adaptation and evolution?what vampires cant adapt or evolve now huh?

you just dont understand about steaking...

once more they DO move at supersonic speeds, some vamps would use this to freak people out, wouldnt you be freaked out if you saw some one move in a faint blur?and i do agree it might look like teleportation like the hybrid in "underworld" but the scene was setup like that because he was probably moving at topspeed.if they have short range teleportation then explain how they can move far distances faster than the eye can see?

about the living vampire,it is again called evolution.

i do agree with you,they can live forever if not killed.

silver has no effect but wolvesbane does.wolvesbane was made like humans came up with anti-venom or something.

what you've read or seen might of been comics or movies.werewolves cant shake off all injuries,what Jakar Nilson said explains it all exactly right.

werewolves ARE about 50% stronger than vamps, but like i said its a STATISTICAL AVERAGE like one would use to find out more or less whats the average height of a particular ethnic group.

there you go!

oh and thanks for the catch Andy Cowell but i didnt spend much time typing it,like 2 seconds.

...and one other thing,this IS NOT a game.

..and another thing you cant GIVE a brand new reason foe werewolves,you cant evolve or adapt to be hurt by something, thats just stupid.

Whats with all the CAPITAL letter here?

Why is this NOT a game?

How DO you know all of this is true?
Perhaps I am missing something here?

Are you a Vampire or a Werewolf,to be able to confirm any of the above is more than just fiction and fantasy?

And one other thing; using a steak to pin a Vampire won't do you much good, you need a stake...

And finally.... back to Sammy Gamgee's original thread -have a look at Westwind's Gothic Horror rules. They give clear guidelines to the differences between these two creatures, it maybe useful for you to see how they compare statistics, you may find something there to help you.

First of all, you are speaking as if you have completed a thesis paper and some lab work on creatures that actually exist.

Secondly, it seems as if you are using Anne Rice's "Fictional" books to base all of your references on. However, in the end the fact remains that they were written by Anne Rice, a FICTIONAL author.

I still fail to see how anyone can say that a Fictional creature is statistically 50% stronger than anything...For example (and don't quote me on these statistics.) An Ant can lift 50 times their bodyweight, Statistic, as an Ant is a real life creature whose strength can be determined through Math. A werewolf vs. a vampire's strength; How does one reach a statistical average when comparing things that don't exist?

[the copper thing is true.]
Where is the proof man? Do you know a Vampire?

[sunlight DOES NOT hurt all vampires, ever hurt of adaptation and evolution?what vampires cant adapt or evolve now huh?]

Anne Rice's Vampires or Blade? - The MYTH that these were based on would be dead in the sunlight. However these authors used "Creative License" and took away some of the fabled weaknesses as a point to their stories. As I said before and will say again...if the writer wants them to evolve or change their weaknesses/powers then they should feel free to do so. It's the wonderful world of FICTION.

It seems perhaps that you need to broaden your Vampire reading scope to include other authors aside from Anne Rice. The Vampire Chronicles are good books, but they are not factual.

[silver has no effect but wolvesbane does.wolvesbane was made like humans came up with anti-venom or something.]
"Wolfsbane" was not made up by humans, it's a plant.

[what you've read or seen might of been comics or movies. werewolves cant shake off all injuries, what Jakar Nilson said explains it all exactly right.]

Ok lets look at what Jakar said: [French and Québecois lore]

Definition of Foklore: an often unsupported notion, story, or saying that is widely circulated.

Once again, as the definition states "Unsupported", "Story". So where are these "facts" coming from?

[you just don't understand about steaking]
Whats there to understand? Its a myth, if I am writing a game, story, movie-script then whether or not stakes work on my vampires is really up to me. It's not like the Vampires equal rights activists will come out in droves calling me Politically Incorrect and sue me for painting unjust, stereotypical pictures of them.

[about the living vampire,it is again called evolution.]
Last I knew only creatures that existed in the real world could evolve, without an authors help of course...did I miss a memo?

[...and one other thing,this IS NOT a game.]
If not then is it real life?

[..and another thing you cant GIVE a brand new reason foe werewolves,you cant evolve or adapt to be hurt by something, thats just stupid.]

Strenth – Welcome to the wonderful world of fiction, where anything is possible! Whether you think it's stupid or not, Vampires and Werewolves, being based on folklore, are public domain and ANYONE can do ANYTHING they want with a Vampirical or Lycanthropic creature.

On the same note: Why is it that your vampires evolve and werewolves not? Or is that simply because Anne Rice hasn't written "Memoirs of a Werewolf" yet? Better yet since you are defending your knowledge as fact regarding werewolves, perhaps you should beat Anne to the punch and write the book first. You can use my title if you like, I'll grant you the rights.

[once more they DO move at supersonic speeds, some vamps would use this to freak people out, wouldnt you be freaked out if you saw some one move in a faint blur?and i do agree it might look like teleportation like the hybrid in "underworld" but the scene was setup like that because he was probably moving at topspeed.if they have short range teleportation then explain how they can move far distances faster than the eye can see?]

Still relying on Anne Rice for your information here, have you actually met Louis or Armand perhaps? I am sure if I was a vamp I would super speed my hind-end all over the place just to take pleasure in freaking out people, I'm sure eternity probably gets pretty boring, its cool that they all have some power that can act as an amusement...me and my various adolescent Vampire friends would probably have a hoot with Ghost Knocking at people's doors too!

[no,dracula was not the first vampire i dont even know why you would bring that up...]
He isn't? All depends on what you are reading or watching I suppose. Do you have any clue how far back Christianity dates? Many vampire stories are based on religion thus tying in the whole crucifix theme. If Dracula wasn't the first...who was, Akasha? This statement ruins my whole theory on vampires and puts me back to the drawing board...

"Which came first, the Vampire or the Bat? What a silly riddle?"

In the end it really doesn't matter who the first vampire was, now does it, since vampires DO NOT exist. Unless of course someone has proof of existence, and then I will change my tune, all one needs to do is make up a name in a story and say that was the first vampire.

Sammy Gamgee, I think throughout the thread you really have a good flavor for all the powers/weaknesses of Vampires/Werewolves. Sorry to hi-jack the thread on ya like this, but that was just silly. I would really recommend taking a peek at some of the White Wolf products, Werewolf Apocalypse, Vampire the Masquerade also give the movie Underworld a go.

Did you know that fellows suspected of Vampirism were staked, beheaded, their head placed between their knees and then buried face down at the Crossroads outside of their town, so if they woke up they would dig deeper into the ground. Silly what people come up with when scared out of their wits by the forces of evil! MWuhahahahahaha!

Transmission out.

*walks into thread carrying a "Do Not Feed the Troll" placard*

*walks out again*

Anybody researching Vampires should at least start with these early sources:

"The Vampire in Europe", by Montague Summers (a very interesting book.)

and

"Varney the Vampire" (from about 1847. It's WAY BEFORE Bram Stoker's 'Dracula'... The year he was born actually.) Here's the text on-line:

link

Note that some vampires have the ability to control animals (like wolves.) By extension, I'm sure that could mean werewolves too...?

[I'm sure that could mean werewolves too...?]

Now there is an interesting idea!

Fantastic writing! The VARNEY author can't just say 'an Elizabethan bed' it has to be 'The bed owes the origins of its manufacture to the Elizabethan era' (or words to that effect)- and we can see where Yoda got his diction from!

Now when you steak a vampire. Can you use a deer steak or does it have to be a beef steak???

There was a good Sluggy Freelance story about "Bunny the Vampire Baker" a few years ago...

I skimmed through bits of that Varney the Vampire thing - the writing doesn't improve.

It's a 150+ year old pulp serial! WHAT DO YOU EXPECT??!!

;)

The 'facts' about werewolves being allergic to silver and to wolfsbane were made up by Hollywood, I believe. One of the very early Lon Chaney films.

My Dad, however, has a book of fables/myths published way back in the 20's which stated that werewolves were vulnerable to bullets blessed in a chapel dedicated to St Hubert.

It also said that if you met a werewolf at a crossroads and shouted out his baptismal name then they would transform back into a man and be unable to ever change again. That particular sort of werewolf had become one by making some sort of deal with the devil and would have a wolf skin hidden somewhere. He needed to 'put on' the wolf skin to change into a werewolf.

Sammy Gamgee–I think you need to decide what SORT of werewolf you want. Do you want someone who turns into a wolf and runs around in the woods with real wolves? Or turns into some sort of wolf-man? Does he retain human intelligence or just become a slavering killing machine? Does it run in a pack or as a lone movie monster?

Your game description of a 'war' implies that you need packs and intelligence on both sides. I'd have a think about what would work best for your plots and players. If your players are the 1920s human detectives, do you want them to be able to kill a vamp/werewolf at all? Or think they've killed it and it gets up an hour later?

Also decide how vampirism/werewolfism transmits. If it is a 'disease' in werewolf saliva then the players can become one by being bitten. If it is genetic then they can't. If it is a deal with the devil then they can, but only if they decide they want to. PIck what will work best for a fun game.

GrimeyGames said [However, in the end the fact remains that they were written by Anne Rice, a FICTIONAL author.]

Actually, I think you find that Anne Rice is a REAL author. She only writes fiction–she isn't fictional herself! :-)

LOL, I will place my bet on the xenomorph from the ALIENS movies . . . .

or the TERMINATOR from the TERMINATOR movies . . . .

maybe GODZILLA or MOTHRA . . . .

THE BLOB? yeah, THE BLOB has potential for taking the title . . . .

TAKE THAT,YOU WEENIE TRADITIONAL BOOGER, YOU!

DAWGIE

Stronty Girl said[Actually, I think you find that Anne Rice is a REAL author. She only writes fiction–she isn't fictional herself! :-)]

Correct, which is exactly what the sentence says she is a Fictional writer, AKA a writer of fictional works… In fact she is a Fictional Writer as Anne Rice is her pen name and not her birth name. So even if you interpret the sentence as you have, I would still be correct.

GrimeyGames said: "Correct, which is exactly what the sentence says she is a Fictional writer, AKA a writer of fictional works… In fact she is a Fictional Writer as Anne Rice is her pen name and not her birth name. So even if you interpret the sentence as you have, I would still be correct."

Actually, I think you'd find more often than not that her classification as an 'author' is indeed quite fictional. I mean, yes, she's managed a few good turns, but yeesh… compared to many authors in the genre she's responsible for more drivel than anyone else.

Back to the topic at hand, I think you'd find that White Wolf probably does best in terms of games attempting to balance Werewolves/Vampires, though it must be granted that this is for Player Characters of a RPG, not a miniatures game. Not entirely sure as I haven't bought them in a awhile, but perhaps you could use the DnD Miniatures game stats for Werewolves/Vampires and go from there?

For using your werewolves in an "Underworld" game:

TMP link

CC