"Waterloo order of battle help" Topic

I am trying to build the French I Corps, I Division at Wterloo.

Learning as I go and wondered what this was –
5/1er Train Squadron

In addition, to add flavour, which cavalry units could I add to the first division (54th and 55th round La Haye Sainte' to add some flavour…I think im right in saying some Cavalry did support the attacks in the area.

Finally, if im using 24 men per battalion, how many men should be in each cavalry unit?

Thanks for any help.

That unit probably should be the 5th Company, 1st Train Battalion, either artillery train or supply train (train des equipages). There was also an engineer train. Train battalions, depending on their designation, pulled the artillery, supplies, etc.

The French train units were organized in battalions, not squadrons.

Ok thanks, so as such not a front line unit I need concern myself with as such unless I want to go into such detail?

What rules are you using?
If you are using home rules or have yet to decide, I would make 12-16 man cavalry units if my infantry are 24 man units.
Are all your infantry going to be 24 man units or are you varying by different countries and units?
I ask because in rules like "In the Grand Manner" an infantry unit can be anywhere from 24-36 men for a line unit to as many as 40 for a guard unit, and cavalry is usually 6-8 men per squadron with four squadrons making a regiment. So units can get rather large. I hope you game on a large table :)

I am using (will be) Blackpowder.

I have only built my first French Brigade (4 battalions of 24 men) so far, I am moving onto british next. Was going to research if these should be 24 too when I get roudn to starting them in about a week.

I am using (will be) Blackpowder.

BP isn't too fussed about the number of figures in a unit. So I recommend that your British units also be 24 figures. I would further suggest that a cavalry unit having a similar frontage as an infantry battalion should typically represent half a cavalry regiment, but operate as a unit in BP terms.

Cheers

So British 24 man units also.

French Cavalry matching Infantry frontage.

Lastly, any advice on a Cavlary unit attacking in support around La Haye sainte? Want to add some for some flavour to the army.

French Cavalry matching Infantry frontage.

Not just the French. ANY cavalry.

5e compagnie du 1er escadron du train d'artillerie / 5th company of the 1st squadron of the artillery train
- capitaine commandant Jean Paleprat (Neuve-église en Cantal 1767 – Douai 1833)
- 3 officers, 103 other ranks

This is the unit with the horses, etc. that was tasked to move the artillery company atttached to the division. The French split their artillery units into two pieces : the artillery company itself that worked the guns and a company of the artillery train to move them. If you are modelling the guns emplaced, you likley cna ignore them. If you are modelling th whole artillery unit, with horses and all, then you might want to model them. Their uniforms were quite different from those of the artillery companies that worked the guns.

Other "train" units in the French were the "train d'équipages militaires" (these moved supplies) and "train du génie" (these moved equipment for engineering operations). Neither of these would likely be attached to a division, but instead reported to a higher formation (e.g. corps, armée).

- Sasha

You could, alternatively, go for 20-figure British units. With their 10-company structure this allows you to depict them as 10 companies of two figures so you would have two figures in light infantry distinctions (wings, green shako cords and plume), and two in grenadier distinctions (wings, all-white plume).

The 24-figure strength allows you to do the same with the French. You have six companies of four figures of whom four are the grenadier company, four are the voltigeurs, and the remaining sixteen are the four fusilier companies.

If there is no tactical significance to the number of figures in the rules you're using then there is no particular reason to make it the same. 20 figures, 24 figures – all looks pretty similar.

D'Erlon's Corps had two integral cavalry brigades under Jacquinot, comprising the 7th Hussars and 3rd Chasseurs a Cheval and the 3rd and 4th Lancers. This formation is usually given as having about 1,500 men in total, so 300 to 400 roughly per unit.

If you figure that the infantry divisions were all around the 4,000 men mark, then this gives you some idea of what is the right proportionate size for the cavalry. Your 54th and 55th regiments would be two battalions each so you should have 96 figures. These 96 figures depict 2,000 men (roughly; half a division). So your Corps cavalry could then be 1,500/2,000 of that, which is 72 to 75 figures for all four regiments. This makes each cavalry regiment 18 or 20 figures each.

Personally I'd go for 18 figures rather than 20 – French cavalry units typically fielded three squadrons, so again you've got the 3 x 6-figure squadron structure reproduced if you did that. Cavalry squadrons comprised two companies, one of which in line regiments was designated elite and had elite uniform distinctions. So half of one six-figure squadron would be elite troopers.

Or you could go with 16 figures in deemed four-squadron strength.

If the key thing is the frontage they occupy, this may tell you how many figures to use.

I dwell on this elite company stuff not because it matters so much in most rules, but because it provides you a bit of painting variation. It is also instantly clear what size of unit a 24-figure is meant to be depicting.

If you wanted to, you could legitimately add some cuirassiers. In the initial attack, d'Erlon's boys went forward with their left flank covered by either Travers' brigade or by both Travers' and Dubois' brigade. Both were from Wathier's division. Travers' brigade was the 7th and 12th cuirassiers, Dubois' was the 1st and 4th. One or both these formations were swept aside by the Household cavalry. I suspect it was only Travers' brigade myself, because the Household brigade was numerically only about equivalent to one French cuirassier brigade and it stretches it a bit, for me, to imagine they routed a whole division.

It sounds like a nice project BTW. 96 infantry figures per brigade, 192 per division, 770-odd per Corps, plus cavalry – about 850 figures to paint.

**edited for arithmetic confusion between brigades and divisions.

Some excellent suggerstions there, 4thC.

Possibly the single best post I've seen for getting someone into napoleonics 4th C. Easy to follow, clear, none of the usual Napoleonic pedantic nonsense. Well done!

Cheers everyone, very helpful!!

Regards possible having 20 British per Battalion, for rule purposes (BP_ would they need to have he same frontage as my French (24 figures?)

Ill have to have a think regards which Cavalry unit to add in.

Currently just painting the flag/eagle banners ready to add the flags. (that flag shown is an old version, putting up better ones now ;] )

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Just adding a little to the excellent post by 4th Cuirassier.

The numbers seem to generate a figure:man scale of 1:40, so the two cuirassier brigades would be as follows:

Travers:
7th Cuirassiers – 4 or 5 figures
12th Cuirassiers – 6 or 7 figures

Dubois:
1st Cuirassiers – 11 or 12 figures
4th Cuirassiers – 7 or 8 figures

The Household Brigade opposed Dubois with the following:

1st Life Guards – 6 or 7 figures
2nd Life Guards – 6 figures
1st Dragoon Guards – 6 or 7 figures
Blues – 6 figures

Allan

Regards possible having 20 British per Battalion, for rule purposes (BP_ would they need to have he same frontage as my French (24 figures?)

You don't have to have exactly the same frontage or even the same number of figures (see discussion on p10 of the rulebook). As long as you can distinguish between standard, large, small or tiny units you will be fine.

Brilliant, cheers for he very informative help everyone.

You're welcome, if it was helpful I'm glad.

That looks like a really nice paint job on those figures. The French of Waterloo no longer had the old style flags with a white diamond and red and blue corners, so your tricolour is correct. It looks pretty good to me!

D'Erlon basically had one cavalry regiment and one foot battery per division of infantry, i.e. 4 of each, so if you want your force to be balanced as it grows, I guess you'd add one cavalry regiment and one gun battery per eight foot battalions.

The cavalry are all in green, mostly, as they are line cavalry, but the hussars' red trousers and the pink lancer facings make for a bit of painting variety.

Hi 4thC. I liked your post and have bookmarked for future reference. My long term is to buiold up D'Erlons Corps plus Grande Batterie, Heavy Cavalry Reserve and La Garde.

Jut have to work on Line Infantry first

Great project Vayasen, do keep us posted!
Since you seem to be looking for who might actually have been near La Haye Sainte, I' d go with 4th C and do some Cuirassiers. Not just because they're available in plastic, but the Hussars (and possibly the Chasseurs as well?) were scouting way out to the East, while the Lancers were in reserve, from where they would be counterattacking the Union Brigade.

Just a footnote that may help:

The train companies assigned to a French gun company were 'brigaded' with that unit more or less permanently. The train company commander was junior in rank to the artillery gun company commander, so that put him as a subordinate to the gun company commander. And a good portion of the train company was engaged in shuttling ammunition forward to the gun line from the parcs when the gun company was engaged, as there were more than once ammunition caisson assigned to each piece in the company. In the field only one caisson per piece was with the gun company.

In short, they acted as one unit, not two.

In the European armies, the train personnel were not artillerymen, but train troops. In the United States Army the development was different-the artillery drivers were artillerymen.

Thanks for the great help all and yes, I have a progress thread on the Nap. Gallery which im trying to keep updated.

Just added some new pics with new flags and some other bits added.

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