"Alien Tanks in Harry Turtledove's WWII Series " Topic

I have started reading Harry Turtledove's delightfully interesting series on WWII and the alien invasion. Looking at gaming possibilities now. I'v found a few pictures of the aliens, i.e. the Race, that seem to match well to the description of them. But I've so far not found any kind of picture or finite description of the tanks the aliens use.

Does anyone know of a source or have any ideas/suggestions in 15 MM scale?

Thanks!

Terry

My impression was that the Lizard's tanks were much like an M48. One of the plot-devices in the books is that the Lizards only prepared for what they thought they would be up against (Crusader Knights), and not what they actually met. So they didn't bring tanks with the capacities of the Abrams, as an example. This meant that the humans only needed a modest increase in technology for the Lizards to get into trouble. Another plot device, one of many, is that the Lizards are incapable of rapid technological innovation.

Soooooo, you could use a 15 mm M48, or we look for a basic 15 mm tracked sci-fi tank.

Cheers,
JohnG

Thanks John, the M-48 is a good starting point, maybe find a 10 MM one to fit on a 40 x 40 base as I play HotT and would use it as a Behemoth, and alter it a bit.

Any suggestions for camouflage or paint schemes. I know the fighters were camouflaged on wings and fuselage for the book, and the Race had a green-brown look. Oh, and were smaller than humans, but definitely lizard like, and with a short tail.

Right, there is no solid description of the lizard tanks IIRC, so any clearly sci-fi tank you fancy should do.

I think the Lizards were a bit more advanced than an M48 (one of the books makes it clear they use laser range-finders and target painting), but it's a tracked and recognizable as a tank, so you shouldn't have too much trouble finding something that's plausible.

Off the top of my head tracked vehicles at the bottom of the page here might work:
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They are tracked tanks, but pretty clearly not a typical human vehicle.

-Will

I actually thought they would be more like a Soviet style tank. More like a T-54 then a M48 just for the size of Lizards. I remember Skorzeny had "aquired" a landcruiser and could barely fit in it.

Thank you all! This is excellent help. I see Pendragen offers a 10 MM model of a Soviet PT-76 which might work if it will fit on the 40 x 40 base size. And of course a few modifications to help it look alien. Also I see Irregular offers a 15 MM sci-fi tank that might work too, but I am sure would have to be shortened in length.

Terry

The PT-76 really does look alien like.

Though I have heard good comments on his alternative history works, I have never read one of his books. I know I may be missing out. Maybe I can find one on tape in the future.

So based on this thread, are you telling me, he now has had aliens invade? if so that is a little disappointing. Oh well.

Turtledove has great ideas, but over the course of a series, you start to strongly dislike almost all of his characters. That is unless you never liked them from the beginning.

Still, great ideas, though.

It would be neat to get some Flames of War stats on their tanks.

I suggest the JSDF Type 74 MBT as an alternative basis for a Lizard land cruiser. It's got a distinctive profile a bit lower and smaller than the M48/M60 series, and I suspect isn't all that well known enough by most Westerners to be readily recognized for what it is after some basic kitbashing mods are added to give it that Lizard lived in look…

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

I always imagined the Lizards' tanks, helicopters and APCs to be about as advanced as US equipment in the late 1980s/first Gulf War era. As far as specific alien-looking designs, I can't help. I always just envisioned them as about 2/3 scale Abrams tanks.

When I read the books I thought it might be fun as a wargame, but never followed through. Please keep us informed of how it works out for you.

Here's the Type 74:

Smaller than the M1 Abrams, and with a little bit of effort IMHO, easily modified into a fetching Lizard landcruiser…

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

Unless you get really lucky and find a suitable model of the MBT 70 prototype:

There's a line in the book where a tank crew re-equip with Shermans and thought that it had a bit of a lizard tank look because it was more curved then their previous tanks. Might be a bit of a hint to what they should look like.

Robert

For some reason, I got the impression it had lines like the Merkava…

When I read the series I always saw the Lizard tanks as T72 analogues.

I still see them as "alien", even if they have tracks and turret, nothing at all like earth tanks. Why not Swedish S-tanks (why? different and I have two painted 1/72 models). Of course, a modified Merkava also works.

I always thought of them as more rounded in both the turret and hull. Turret shaped like a T55 but taller. More of a dome. I would love to see what people come up with.
At one time I had one of those MTB 70 kits. Now the turret is hover tank.

M48 hull with a Soviet cast turret for the extra-roundedness?

I would just look thru the all the tracked tank options from the major manufacturers (GZG, Rebel, Khurasan, etc) and pick out something you like that doesn't look like an actual human tank. I don't think anyone would question a unique design, where as if you use an actual modern tank people will certainly point it out (Probably Repeatedly) while gaming.

I think Lion in the Stars idea of a M48 hull with a Soviet cast turret would be spot on. Of course one could always ask the author which tank he thinks looks most like a lizard land cruiser?

Thank you all for the great feedback. It is truly very helpful. I am only about 150 pages into the first book, but was instantly captured by the possibility of a fun game.

I game in 15 MM so would use 10 MM lizard figures since they are described as being smaller than humans. So far I have read of them armed with a shooting weapon/rifle, and some with swords – plus their fighter jets, troop carriers, anti-aircraft and "land cruisers"/tanks.

So for me, being an avid HotT payer it definitely has possibilities.

Thanks again!

Terry

Terry: "I've found a few pictures of the aliens, i.e. the Race, that seem to match well to the description of them."

So what the "descriptions", exactly?

Would the "descriptions" you speak of match the suggestions offered for tanks of this other alien race?

TMP link

Dan
PS. Please pardon my ignorance, but the suggestions already offered before now don't seem to make The Race look all that much more advanced than the humans they are fighting. I imagine any invading alien race to look quite advanced, unless they are going through their own post apocalyptic stage and are barely hanging on to survival:
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They aren't. It's a plot point or MacGuffin that the story relies on.

Do you know about the 15mm space raptors by Loud Ninja, Terry link

@Dan – As Paint it Pink says, the point of the story is that the Race is NOT all that much more advanced. The Race advanced at snails pace compared to humans; or rather, humans advance amazingly fast compared to The Race and the other alien species The Race have already conquered. The Race is barely interstellar (slower than light ships that are mostly fuel, takes decades or centuries to get anywhere), but that's ok because they fully expect the situation to be pretty much the same once they get there. Their military equipment is pretty much what we'd expect to have today, but they arrive while Earth is fighting WWII. That's sort of the book's schitck; it's war where one side has modern tech but a limited supply of it, and the defender has 'obsolete' tech but can build more of it.

-Will

What Will and Paint it Pink says.

The whole point about the series is that the invaders are not slathering Kardashians, or 10th Gen Tech with FTL drives, blasters and teleporters (or even sonic screwdrivers), but are pretty much like us.

And I hope it isn't toomuch of a spoiler to say that the Lizards being "pretty much like us" is how he spun it to, what?, 9 books? It is more a clash of cultures thing rather than a high-tech low-tech thing, and how the two cultures deal with each other. With tanks and spaceships of course!

JohnG

I thought they were more advanced, but decided only to be a few thousand years ahead of who they were fighting.

As full tech had lead to some nasty rebellions?

So they expected Arrows and Lances, and got MG42 and Tanks.

Use a generic mass made WW2 hull (KV-2 for eg), pick up some turret from a Sci Fi manufacturer co and you are set.

As we game in 20mm, I have used 15mm or old mini-tanks (1/87) vehicles. The key is to swap turrets to make a unique Lizard vehicle. We can use 15mm Zevelda modern stuff since the Lizards are smaller as so too their vehicles.

Not sure about Lizard INF. Anyone know a 15mm sized Lizard race to use (since we use 20mm WWII; 15mm for shorter Lizards would work).

TomT

I mentioned these earlier, 15mm space raptors by Loud Ninja….maybe trim the tails.

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It seems to me, remembering the books from a while ago that the Aliens weren't that advanced, not least because mid to late WW2 tech (Panthers, Tigers etc) seemed to be able to hold there own against the alien tanks. Alien infantry seemed to only really have advantage in terms of using assault rifles and helicopters…..they had an advantage in the air but even there humanity was able to close the gap enough to pose a threat. I felt the aliens had a roughly 1960s tech level and if they had arrived later they wouldn't have had much of an advantage except for their spaceships.

Truly some excellent discussion here, and all very much appreciated.

First the 15MM.Co.UK Raptors. I fear they would be too big as the lizards of "The Race" are described as coming to about shoulder height of a normal human. That's why I will most likely go with Pendragen 10 MM lizards.

I also have to agree that the technology of the lizards is not that dramatically advanced over what was used in WWII. From reading on I see that they have what appears to be the ability of radar guided missiles and operational nuclear weapons a la the 80's technology. However, they seem to be using the latter sparingly so as to preserve what land mass there is, and only hit the one city as a demonstration of their power – not knowing that we are also working on such weapons.

Their armor/tanks is described as was said above as being rounded like the Sherman, but I agree it should be a kit bashing mix to prevent it looking to well known human.

Their bullets also seem to be very much like ours as does their artillery, but in a HotT army I am not sure artillery would be right in a HotT army for the lizards, so I am hoping to discover that they had an equivalent of an HMG. Oh, and they do seem to have an M14/M16 like semi-automatic infantry weapon as opposed to our single shot M1 Garand.

I have been trying to envision a type of camouflage for their vehicles and aircraft. We know from reading that they do not like water, so humid regions seem out of place, which makes me want to lean toward some kind of desert camouflage.

I have also been hoping to create an opposing army of humans to fight them, and want to have it be some kind of mixed international force. So far the only such I've read about is a German-Russian force, so that may be how I go. But, I am only half way through the first book, so we'll see what the rest of the book(s) have to offer.

Thank you again all for your input, as it is very much appreciated.

Terry

@Terry37: Loud Ninja Game's "Space Raptors" are about waist-high on a 15mm human, with their heads reaching the shoulders. I have quite a few of them, they aren't as big as you fear.

The downside is that the Chuhuac are well-armored.

Thanks Lion, I'll still go have a look. There is one line in the book that describes the lizards as wearing helmets, so armor may not be all bad??? Anyway, I'll look into them.

Terry

Earl of the North, just wanted to let you know I ave ordered some of the Raptors you suggested and think they will work nicely. The armor is less of a problem because in book three which I am well into they are described as wearing helmets and body armor!

Thanks for the tip,

Terry

Ok, when the thread resurfaced, I reread all the posts to refresh my mind about what was said earlier, and I realized I had missed this reference …

Platypus01AU: "The whole point about the series is that the invaders are not slathering Kardashians"

Now I can't get the image of the Kardashians as an alien advance party, sent down to test how shallow and how easy we (both men and women) are to manipulate with trivial scenes and be pulled away from real issues.

Well, needless to say, the alien leaders back on the home planet must be extremely proud of how much their tiny advanced party has accomplished. Their mass invasion is totally unnecessary. We have proven our major weaknesses and we are now under the complete control of the aliens!!!

By the way, if someone were to need a Kardashian landing party in 15mm, what figures are available?

Dan

Your welcome Terry, happy to help.