"playing surface?" Topic

let me start of by saying im new here, and i'm just getting into naval miniatures and really enjoying it so far. But the question i have is what sort of playing surface does everyone use?

We have been using the admiralty rule set i found online one day and it seems to be a good mix of detail and quick enough pacing to keep a game interesting. its not hex based, which i like, but we have been discussing what to make a playing surface out of that would be large enough and not too heavy to move around.

My idea was some of that 1/4 inch thick foam poster board they sell at the craft store and painting it to suit. that way we could sort of make a tile system that can be laid out for play then stored.

what has everyone else done? i know there are some super creative and talented people here. what do you recommend for paint?

Oh and we're doing 1:1200 by the way. So i'm looking for a total area of maybe 4 feet by 4 feet or so, give or take.

I use a blue cloth!

I have only ever seen blue cloth used, though once in a magazine, someone had covered their cloth with a perspex that had a ripple effect.

Most naval tables seem to be pretty big, so cloth seems like a good option, but since you are doing 4' x 4' you could do a textured surface without storage being a particular problem. If doing a board, you could make one edge coastal if that fits in with the kind of games / scenarios that you play.

I use a plastic disposable table cloth for my watery war gaming. The kind found in dollar stores.

I thought that a textured vinyl linoleum that would paint up well would make a good surface for naval games. You might even get lucky and find one with a nice sea green colour that just needs a bit of dry brushing.

Cigar box battle mats have a nice sea cloth mat which looks great. 6 x 4 foot so slightly larger than what you game with.

A few options here:
link

link

Expensive!
link

Here is my(mostly)river mat, but I'm gonna use it for my Battle of Britain air games when I get the planes painted. It's a green felt mat with a little, mostly spray painting by me.
link
Hope this helps,
Peter

I use Geo Hex ocean, it's felt with a water pattern printed on it, long out of production. I would go to JoAnns or a similar cloth store and just look around. Maybe "water" camouflage or upholstery. Cloth is the way to go, cheap, east storage, looks good, inexpensive as wargaming supplies go.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog

Since you're only doing a 4' x 4' you could make up a single board – the Warhammer Trafalgar rule book shows some great looking sea effect boards that are made using thick wallpaper boarder adhesive mixed with paint and stippled into tiny waves. It really does look fabulous and it might be worth hunting on the internet to find out more about the process.

Another option for your consideration:

PDF link

If you're lazy like me you might consider this: link

I use a dark blue cloth/bedsheet.

I found a felt cloth to be a very satisfactory solution for years, because I found a color that was a deep sea blue mottled with some black and it gave a very "oceanic" impression from a distance. Disadvantages of felt are the color selection (it's hard to find one that looks properly "oceanic"), the little hairs of the felt that interfere with sliding miniatures across the surface, and it doesn't shine or reflect light like real water.

You can choose other kinds of cloth to gain a greater selection of colors, but lose the thickness of felt (a problem on many flawed table surfaces).

A (somewhat expensive) step up from cloth is vinyl. It's difficult to find a good color (most blues are "too blue" to be a good looking ocean), but you could paint it with latex paints.

Another option you can buy is the Sea Scape mat from terrainmat.com.

If you're really artistic, you could make your own mat like that on a canvas with latex paints. Most of us aren't so good at free-form art…

Having said all that, I highly recommend War Artisan's solution. I did it for myself last year; I gathered the materials while out and about one weekend, and did all the painting over a subsequent weekend. It's only a few hours of painting total, separated by a good long drying time.

You can see more photos of his work in his Flickr collection. The foam tiles have only two disadvantages over cloth – bulk and cost – but many advantages: light, durable, spilled-drink-proof, give you a built-in grid for scenario planning (e.g. plotting locations of shoals, reefs, arrangement of shoreline, recording battle results for continuation later, etc.), and make the dreaded Edge Of The World™ a non-issue. Also, the foam tiles completely negate the canyons, rogue waves, and whirlpools where underlying tables join. I can even recommend specific paint colors of Olympic Icon Gloss Latex paint (which I got at Lowes):

Base color: C55-6 Shimmering Sea
Wave color: B56-6 Jamaican Dream

Note that if the tiles in War Artisan's article and photos don't look fancy enough for you, any sort of painting you could do on other surfaces could be done on the foam tiles.

- Ix

Peter (Ceterman):

That Historicon ironclads game looks beautiful. Very nice work!

- Ix

Yellow Admiral,
Thanks so much! Those pics were of our play-testing in my basement, the actual game at H-Con looked even better!
Peter

I've used various colors of fabric sheets – the flat, king-sized ones, as well as those nice, polyester, synthetic wool blankets too.

I like the latter best, though as mentioned, you don't get that nice, shiny water-like surface. I had a nice, navy blue one, for deep ocean simulation. I thought it looked very good.

Adding vinyl over the top would solve that nicely, though.

With a small playing area, your problem is going to be the "edge of the world" effect. Here is solution that we use:

[1] We start with a felt of an agreeable color to cover the table.

[2] We overlay the felt surface with a pattern of 18 x 24 inch clear plexiglass rectangles to cover the table top. The tiles give a nice glossy liquid surface effect and the rectangular gridwork created by the edges makes a convenient reference for determining point of sailing versus the wind.

[3] WHEN (not if) your ships arrive at the "edge of the world", just slide the plexiglass rectangles upon which the ships are situated back to the middle of the table and continue play.

You can get precision-cut 1/8th inch thick plexiglass for about USD 10.00 per sheet from any good hardware store. USD 160.00 will cover a 6ft x 8ft table.

Downside – 16 sheets together are pretty heavy. We had to make a carrier (like a big firewood carrier) to tote them.

Note – I used to use foam model RR tiles, but they are ridiculously bulky to store and move and ultimately fell victim to "elbow disease" – people would lean on them and leave permanent unsightly dents

B

"Fabric seas/oceans" are certainly the most travel friendly method for covering a tabletop, and fairly inexpensive too.

Another vote for blue cloth. Mine is a royal blue 6'x8' felted on one side cloth. From Hancock fabrics (US). Had it for years. Folds up and stores like a charm. Though the clear plexi looks very nice on top.

I use a 4' x 6' hex-printed mat from CorSec Engineering, but I need the hexes. Never thought about the plexi though, have to try that.

EDIT: As far as the 'edge of the world' problem, we scroll the mat under the ships. A quick, sharp tug and all set!

Seriously, we just shift all vessels a number of hexes in the same direction – one advantage of a hex mat.

GW made a nice mat for their Dreadfleet game.

SgtPrylo,
Use a rule!
Be safe
Rory

thanks for all the awesome suggestions! its funny because before war artisan even replied i found some of the foam floor mats in my garage and thought about using them. then i saw his post and he sold me haha

unfortunately even though you can start a topic on here you still have to wait three days in order to reply. but i have been reading them all and theyre all great.

i really like the plastic sheeting over the fabric.

my goal was to make something that could be folded and thrown in the car and laid out on carpet and still be flat. thats why fabric was kind of ruled out.

some of the pre made mats are really nice but i can spend $100 USD on a mat for these haha. i would be in trouble for that!

by the way is there an easy way to attach an image to my post here that i'm not seeing? i would love to get some pics up of what i been working on for you all!

for instance i'm posting from my smartphone and the pics are on here. is there a way to upload them straight to the post on here?

The only way to display photos on TMP is to post them elsewhere and link to them.

Linking to photos is explained in the Check the FAQ link at the bottom of this page.

- Ix

@devsdoc: Can I use more than one rule or do I have to pick one from the set at random? ;)

The Form on the Admiral's Wake rules use the hexes, so that's currently how my mat is configured.

ok yeah i saw the instructions for the links. i guess i'll have to try that.

so how come some peoples posts on the site have pics in them and next to the pic it says "no url for link" or whatever? how did they do that?

SgtPrylo,
You said "I need the hexes". Only for hex lead rules. It sounded like you think only hexes work. I said "Use the rules".
The rules for a non-hex game do work. I think better and less limiting with movement. Most non-hex rule give you 8 to 16 points of movement with around 3-5 points you cannot use (Into the wind). You can also slide the sea under the ships without hexes. I thought you think only hexes work. not so! I think you can mix rules too. If it works for you go for it!
Be safe
Rory

i'm not sure i'm totally understanding or not but are you asking if you can use non-hex based rules on a board with hexes?

or are you saying you want a larger board but need hexes on it because of the rules you're using?

when i was looking for a rule set i purposely looked for one without hexes. i agree it gives more freedom of movement and to me adds realism to te game.

not sure how i even found it originally but heres what i have been using

wtj.com/games/beta/admiralty

I have not played "Admiralty but downloaded it. I have a lot of rules floating around the home now. I like collecting rules. I have not by a long chalk played them all. But it is funny how after a time one can see the same idea's popping up again and again. This is not a bad thing, just interesting. I do not think we will see the perfect rules as we all want different things. It is fun seeing all of the ideas. For me I do not like hexes, that is to say it is wrong, just not for me.
It is like playing surface's painted boards or tiles for one or cloth to roll for ease. Both have plus points. I for one like boards. But as I cross a car-park in the rain I think a lot about cloths.
each to there own.
Be safe, no one is right
Rory

Nope, not saying anything other than 'my current mat has hexes because of the current rules I'm using'. I've played a bunch of sailing rules, and like Rory, I like to collect them as well. As I get older, I've found I prefer rules (not just in fighting sail) that move away from the 'realism' end of the spectrum towards the 'fast and bloody' end. That has developed as I have gotten more and more involved in club and convention gaming.

oh i agree fast and bloody is good! i just don't like when a game is so streamlined and simplified that realism and strategy goes out the window and the whole game rides on dice rolls.

it can be hard to find a strategy game in any genre that has a good mix of speed and realism. and honestly admiralty is the only rule set i have played in depth so i can't really compare it to any others.

there are certain portions of the rules we eliminate or streamline to get into playing more quickly. you can roll for leader quailites and time of day and that sort of thing which affects starting postion. plus there are crew grades and sea depth and wind speed.

you can sort of skip over them and choose stats that make both sides even and still have a fun game out of it.

more on topic i am still working on getting pics up to share with everyone. i went with the foam floor tiles that war artisan uses with some blue paint and some lines. and all of our ships are scratch built, some of which have come out pretty nice but i'm still not sure they're show off worthy comapred to the little works of art some of you guys have haha!

I am sick to death of "fast and bloody" rules. Our hobby is littered with games that speed up the rate of damage so much that the only "maneuver" in the game is the initial approach before things start dying, blowing up, sinking, or falling apart.

I want my naval games to play like the history books I read, maneuvering in and out of contact, looking for opportunities, working to maximuze my side's strengths and exploit the enemy's weaknesses. A game that allows no more maneuvering than "get close and blast away" throws all that away and replaces it with a die rolling contest. If I'm going to play a game based on luck and devoid of military simulation, I can have a much better time (and make more money) playing poker than Yahtzee.

- Ix

Agreed Yellow Admiral! For years I played Norway and Sweden versus Denmark and the Netherlands c 1905 because with those few guns the games were anything but fast and bloody….

Rather than "JoAnn's fabric store" you might try looking at a remainedered upholstery store. There is a store near me that refinishes furniture- sofa's and the like and has surplused, left-over fabric. I got some nice shiny blue- these have different and better textures than fabric made for clothing.

Note that if you are converting a hex game to a free movement game, try to put the weft or warp of the fabric all in one direction and this will serve as a consistent edge to base the n x (30 degrees) direction changes you would make with a hex.

"…no captain can do very wrong if he places his ship alongside that of the enemy." Horatio Nelson

Sounds like "get close and blast away" to me. At Trafalgar, the main maneuver was splitting the line, after which ships laid up next an opponent and fired away. At the Nile, the English lined up, dropped anchor, and fired broadsides until le Orient blew up, among other things. One could argue that "get close and blast away" rules ARE the most realistic. Prior to Nelson's maneuver at Trafalgar, battles consisted of two lines of ships passing each other in line, blazing away, and falling off without decisive result. Not very much of 'maneuver to exploit weaknesses there'.

Having said all of that, I respect each person's personal choice about how to play their sailing games.'Fast and bloody' doesn't mean there is no maneuver, by the way. Maybe it just means that the miles and miles of rules minutiae aren't present to get in the way of playing a fun game.

I've run 'Admiral's Wake' many times, with many players, and I've filled all of those 3-4 hour sessions with nary a complaint, so I'm ok with it.

it's a tricky type of combat to simulate anyway because unless there were just lines of ships blasting away at each other it wasn't always that exciting. a lot of chases that lasted hours and a lot of inconclusive battles.

that's why my interest is more in the battles and chases of frigates like hms cyane and the like. so far the most fun i've had playing is basically a two on two frigate battle. that way even with complicated, detailed rules the game itself and the ships move quickly haha. lots of maneuvering and playing with the wind but enough firing and action also.

its hard to simulate a chase that takes 10 hours in pretty much a straight line. but i'm not all that excited by just lining up 30 ships of the line and rolling dice for 4 hours either. does that make sense the way i said it?

"…no captain can do very wrong if he places his ship alongside that of the enemy." Horatio Nelson

Sounds like "get close and blast away" to me. At Trafalgar, the main maneuver was splitting the line, after which ships laid up next an opponent and fired away. At the Nile, the English lined up, dropped anchor, and fired broadsides until le Orient blew up, among other things. One could argue that "get close and blast away" rules ARE the most realistic.

I'm carrying the discussion of "quick and bloody" rules to this new thread over here, in a polite attempt to avoid completely derailing Rockatansky's discussion of naval gaming playing surfaces.

- Ix

that's why my interest is more in the battles and chases of frigates like hms cyane and the like. so far the most fun i've had playing is basically a two on two frigate battle. that way even with complicated, detailed rules the game itself and the ships move quickly haha. lots of maneuvering and playing with the wind but enough firing and action also.

Frigate actions are fun, just a totally different animal than fleet battles. If you're pressed for space (sounds like you are), that's a more appropriate scale of battle to play anyway. Even with itsy-bitsy-wee-tiny miniature SOLs, a fleet battle takes gobs of space.

- Ix

well its not that i'm necessarily pressed for space. i was just looking for something that would be light and portable. i have the skills to make a really nice table but that's not exactly easily transported to a friends house haha

in the end i went with the foam floor tiles and its about 4 feet by 6 feet and i could always add more to it. i need to get some pics up!

You have said, but I'm assuming you mean foam tiles with puzzle-piece edges like these:

The downside of those foam tiles with the puzzle-piece edges is that you have to buy your entire set at the same time. It is almost impossible to find sets by different manufacturers or even different batches from the same manufacturer that fit together. It's amazing how much variety there is in the exact same design of puzzle-piece edge shapes… but it takes less than 1/2" of difference in overall edge length or a minor variation in angles or curves to make new tiles and old tiles fail to mesh.

If you bought those tiles recently, run, do no walk, to the store where you bought them and buy as many more sets you think you may ever want. Otherwise, when you decide to expand the size of the foam gaming surface, you'll have to start over with a whole new set.

I made 32 tiles for my own collection, so I can cover my friend's 6'x20' table if I ever need to. I probably never will, but… I can dream, can't I?

- Ix

I use a sort of 'leatherette' upholstery material in blue with darker blue patches. Not perfect, but it does for now. I think it was about £7.00 GBP per metre at Dunhelm Mills, and I got 2 metres

Jonesey

I think that vinyl looks very nice, and I would be pretty happy with such a surface. It isn't quite as reflective as real water (or varnish, or that clear vinyl in Tim's pictures above, etc.), but more than cloth and enough to help with the illusion. Did that color come with the alternating shades of blue, or did you have to paint that on yourself?

I had a nice piece of "sea blue" vinyl once (deep aqua, more on the blue side than green), but I ruined it trying to paint a grid on it. :-(

- Ix

Cheers lx – The material is just as it comes. I'd like to make a special board for games – or 2' squares so I can 'scroll' the action to avoid that 'edge of the world feeling' – but I am perfectly happy with my cheap vinyl for the moment