"Nobody has a right to not be offended" Topic

Nor should a site cater to a small minority.

Do we want this site to be subject to the "heckler's veto"?

We have established, through a proper and timely Poll, that holocaust denial is forbidden on TMP. And I voted that way.
This was a serious poll, and not the usual nonsense with 5 different ways to say yes or no. It was a straight, no nonsense vote with a clear majority.
re linked to womanhood. Therefore, calling someone a "pussy" will from now on be against forum rules, on grounds of sexism.
If we stoop to having one complaint determine policy, we can forbid condemnation of Hitler or questions about Napoleon's or Lee's generalship.

Yes. This relates yo the "pussy" discussion.
We have too many "forbidden words" as it is. Let's not add to thin on the basis of one or two complaints.

There is a huge difference between something that is offensive (words and images, like a post that runs against religious sensitivities) and something that runs contrary to fact and reality (Holocaust Denialism). Perhaps we need a poll to decide if the editors should DH posters based upon specific words instead of intents of the posts.

In the modern world, is calling someone a "pussy," an insult against women?

I think that's the basic question.

It is all contextual. It depends on the situation, and a zero tolerance standard does not work.

It means you are weak and cowardly. Woman aren't weak or cowardly.

Is it acceptable to call someone gay?

What Comabtpainter and Winston said…

The great Stephen Fry has an opinion on this.

I'll post a link as he uses a word not necessarily acceptable on this forum.

link

Yup….Stephen Fry nailed it.

Exactly. Being offended by something is a weakness in that person. Instead of worrying about someone being offended by something we should look at something offensive as a way for them to toughen themselves up.

There is nothing you can say that will offend me. I am responsible for my responses to stuff. So is everyone else, actually.

If you have any emotional response to anything that comes from you, not them. Nothing is inherently offensive.

How can a reference to a feline be sexist? If I call someone a dog, then that refers to males so where does it end?

I'm a politically Left, liberal type, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain that "don't be a pussy" is sexist. Sounds totally bizarre to me.

Pussy is a word which has developed in two different directions.

Originally it was another word for cat. Today it can still mean cat, but can also mean a woman's genitals or a weak and wimpish person.

The word is not automatically sexist. It all depends on the context. If being used as an insult, calling someone a 'pussy', the inference is that they are being called weak and wimpish. Not a woman's genitals. Therefore not a sexist comment.

I would not be in favour of a total ban on the word. If it is used in a sexist way at some point, this can be dealt with under the existing TMP guidelines, can it not?

Only two things should determine whether a word or phrase is acceptable – what it was intended to convey and what it was perceived to convey. Sadly, we are now in a world where the first poiunt doesn't matter and the second is used in an over sensitive way.

Since the word in the context that it is presumed to be used here would be contained in a post that can almost certainly be assumed to be abusive anyway is there a problem?

Am I the only one thinking of the infamous p*****s, d****s and *****s speech from Team America, World Police? Best political analysis EVAH!

Actually, 'pussy' originally meant any small, furry animal, not just a cat. A rabbit could be a 'puss'. So the double-entendre for pussy is a reference to women's pubic hair.

It's about like any other genital reference, pointing out negative qualities that are supposed to be gendered: pussy for weakness and cowardice, dick for selfishness and insensitivity, for stupidity, schmuck for selfish stupidity, etc.

In the US, 'pussy' is used so often that it's almost not a sexual insult any more. But at root it is.

We can decide to put up with all the insulting words, or none of them, or some of them. They're all valid choices.

Let me once more offer as an alternative, 'wussy', a denatured variant suitable for Sunday school, much like 'shoot', 'goldurn' or 'dang'.

We don't have to use crude language. We can be just as offensive using proper English if we apply ourselves a bit.

When I was growing up p**** was the equilivent of dropping the F-bomb, so I don't mind it being banned. Oddly enough, wussy never bothered anyone even though we saw it as a combination of wimp and p****.

Most of this whole debate passes me by as I only visit this forum for wargaming …

But I would say that during the great argument I did visit that other forum some enthusiasts support and I certainly wouldn't want all that childish swearing and vulgarity to become normal here. I am easily offended? Not really … just polite, articulate English seems to serve our needs adequately in most cases – so it's fine by me to have (language) standards even if (inevitably) any one issue analysed in isolation will look silly …

Phil

WOW, in the old days they use to call us Italians Dagos and Waps. Never bothered me nor does it now bother me. I guess we used to call other nationalities by specific names too and we used to laugh at each other and tease each other and never get offended. However it was in the nature of the attitude in which the word was used that was offensive.
If the word was thrown at you in an angry way by someone trying to insult you that meant war!

That's part of the problem, and a common one when communicating online: It's often difficult to determine whether such an insult was hurled in jest vs. anger vs. contempt. (Setting aside the fact that the word in question isn't usually used in polite company.)

I recently had a young man complain to me that a joke about his squealing when a spider landed on his shoulder was hurting his feelings. This was a blatant attempt to shame me and others into no longer telling such jokes. Now this is a young man just recently moved on from our public school system. I'm quite sure our jokes would be considered bullying in that rarified atmosphere.
My response was to tell him that I could take the same offence about all the old fart jokes that fly around in reference to me. But that I don't do such as I'm a man. I like to tell jokes and like others to feel free to do likewise. Besides, I really liked Colonel Washington when I helped nominate him to command the Continental Army.
Some folks as visit here need to develop thicker skins. They'd find life a lot more enjoyable that way…

Something to either lighten up the conversation or get me a trip to the DH.

YouTube link

If someone is calling someone else here a pussy, or saying that another member is acting like a pussy, that's against forum rules, is it not?

But if someone uses is it in another way, fine. It's not a word I'm overly fond of, and I think I only used it once here, in a joking way.
TMP link

However, the notion of it being sexist I find absurd.

To me while in the Marine Corps someone being called a "Pussy" was because he cried (guys don't do that) is super in touch with his feelings, like a woman or really needs to tell you why his feelings are hurt, or his feeling get hurt a lot. And there are a lot of dudes on TMP who seem to fit this description. Oh and I'm not for banning anything nor doughousing anyone either, I'm for people sucking it up and ignoring what they don't like.

Dagos and Waps.

Wop where I grew up. Being one, it never bothered me.

I find the brilliant Aussie stand-up Steve Hughes nails the subject:

YouTube link

(the bit about 'being offended' starts at 3:00)

Thanks Norman D Landings, much appreciated and so true.

Never heard of Steve Hughes before. Now I know what I've been missing. Thanks…

Everyone gets a case of "feelings"…Cry babies. How do some people survive in the real world? Oh wait the real world is full of pansy candy asses too, that now set the rules for society where everyone is a special snowflake. I don't ever think once I heard my grandfather boohoo cause someone said a naughty word or hurt his feelings. Matter of fact I don't think he had feelings, at least not to the point he cared to share them with anyone. Theres reason they were the greatest generation…cause men were men and women acted like women. There was no gender confusion or going off and crying foul because someone upset you. You dealt with it…

From my experience, the people who cry about "people having thin skin" tend to have the thinnest skin, it's just a matter of what people get y about.

Here's the question:

Is there anything to be gained from making TMP a place where offensive dialogue, racists and political axe-grinders can up every discussion?

Because it makes you feel like a tough internet-man when you swear? Get bent.

I'm an adult with a job and family, I don't want to listen to a bunch of man-children trying to impress each other by saying words they think are cool and edgy.
Especially so on a site that dedicates itself to discussing dice and toy soldiers. If you have insecurity issues, go work out or grow a garden, it'll make you feel better about yourself.

It is sexist to call someone this or the British equivalent, is to imply that the person lacks male gentile. And because they lack balls they are therefore weak willed, of course the majority of the planet does not have balls.

Great thread.

Oh wait, what the are we talking about???

Sounds a lot like "I'll defend to the death you're right to call people pussies… On an internet forum… About playing with toy soldiers."

Okay, I suppose, but we may have lost our way a bit.

And I've got bad news for all you worrying about whether calling someone a pussy is sexist: of course it's sexist, that's the point!!!

So, you can either live with that, or you can't. But I'm pretty sure no one was calling General So-And-So a cat, so clearly the point is to demean that general's manliness by calling him a lady's part, insinuating he's more lady than man. That's just how it is, how it's been ever since guys began calling ladyparts pussies and then using the same term to demean, or just screw with, other guys.

Wow, I think I've used the word pussy more here than in the whole past ten years since I got out of the Marines. But it was refreshing, a stroll down memory lane ;)

I guess my answer to the poll that I'm sure will be coming is, "pussy" away, "pussy" to your heart's content, but what for? The only thing I can think of is "man, I got my ass kicked today! My (little metal) troops sure performed like pussies on the tabletop (again)." I'll probably find another way to articulate that message however, and it's probably for the best.

So, have at it, and hopefully this thread will help you get it out of your system(s). I for one feel like a total idiot for having typed that on a web forum, and particularly this one, and I won't be doing it again.

I hope I've made at least a little point, but I'm not sure I have. I'll say this: TMP will certainly be less attractive to me if it turns into us throwing vulgar language (I hope that even if you somehow don't think pussy is sexist, you'd agree it is vulgar) into every thread, just because we can. I think there's already a site on the web for you if that's your thing…

V/R,
Jack

Live your own life….

Nothing good comes from trying to force your beliefs or values or on someone else….

This is my last comment on this subject as I going to take my own advice and will not read this type of post again. I would suggest that we would all benefit if most of you did the same.

"I live in America. I have the right to write whatever I want. And it's equaled by another right just as powerful: the right not to read it. Freedom of speech includes the freedom to offend people".

Quote from Brad Thor

Double negatives always confuses me!

'"pussy" to your heart's content' I wish

I find the brilliant Aussie stand-up Steve Hughes nails the subject:

A different Australian came to mind, actually (NSFW language).

On feelings:

Rocco: Do you think Duke Wayne spent all of his time talking about his feelings with a ****** therapist?

Connor MacManus: There's no ****** way he did!

Rocco: John Wayne died with five pounds of undigested red meat in his ass. Now that's a man! Real men hide their feelings. Why?

Connor MacManus, Murphy MacManus, Rocco: Because it's none of your ******* business!

Steve Hughes says boy bands offend him. Will we ban boy bands?

I think we should.

Where does freedom of speech end and bullying begin?

It's a fine line to be sure, but I never felt a little bit of bullying was a bad thing. It can build character or at least be used as barometer to gauge someone's constitution. What is bullying? Name calling, ignoring, physically touching another, pushing someone to emotional breaking point?

I work in a very fraternal atmosphere, a certain amount of "bullying" is dished out until you prove yourself. Never had hard feelings about it. But it has been used to weed out the ones that don't fit in or wouldn't pull their weight…

Right or wrong, it is what it is…Sometimes you just gotta "sack" up and deal with it…

Let me phrase it in a manner that might be easier to understand:

This site is owned by Bill. In essence, we're all in his garage, hanging out.

If you had a bunch of people over, and one guy kept yelling "HITLER WAS RIGHT" very loudly, every single time someone tried to talk, would you keep inviting that guy over, even though the government can't arrest him for saying it?

There is NO freedom of speech on a privately owned website (hint, they pretty much all are), at work or on another persons property.

At my old job, if I said "dude, quit being such a *****" to a customer, my ass would be grass approximately 7 minutes after the call had finished.
I doubt my manager would buy that "They really should just grow a thicker skin".

Stepman,

I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiment, but only in 'real life.' It seems to me that talking on the Internet, with no possibility of having to pay for one's mouthiness (which, in my opinion, is a key and fundamental aspect of the fraternal/manly environment), is pretty much the definition of a pussy ;)

V/R,
Jack

Does anyone know with certainty the origin of the term? I'm wondering if it derives from the older expression 'gentle as a pussy cat'.

Mr Martini,

Are you worried that guys call people that name as a means to show their disdain for someone not acting manly, and they call female genitalia that same term, but that it might be a coincidence?

We'll have to ask Kyoteblue; according to my dictionary, the first recorded use of the word pussy being used by a man to mock another man occurred in 1658, and John's the only TMPer that was around then ;)

V/R,
Jack

He was getting in his 50's that year though, so his memory might be slipping a bit.

The Hills of Greenmore

One fine winter's morn my horn I did blow
To the green fields of Keady for hours we did go
We gathered our dogs and we circled around
For none loves the sport better than the boys in the dell.

And when we arrived they were all standing there
We set off for the fields, boys, in search of a hare
We didn't get far till someone gave the cheer
Over high hills and valleys the sweet puss did steer

As we flew o'er the hills, 'twas a beautiful sight
There was dogs black and yellow, there was dogs black and white
As she took the black bank for to try them once more
Oh it was her last look o'er the hills of Greenmore.

In a field of wheat stubble this pussy did lie
And Rory and Charmer they did pass her by
And there where we stood at the top of the brae
We heard the last words that this sweet puss did say:

No more o'er the green fields of Keady I'll roam
Nor trip through the fields, boys, in sport and in fun
Or hear the long horn that your toner does play
I'll go home to my den by the clear light of day.

You may blame ol' MacMahon for killing the hare
For he's at his ol' capers this many's a year
On Saturday and Sunday he never gives o'er
With a pack of strange dogs round the hills of Greenmore

The usage 'puss' for a hare is fairly common in 18th and 18th century songs.

I think I agree with you Jack. But whatever I say at my keyboard I have no problem saying it in person. I've been punched in the mouth before, i'm sure it'll happen again…

Bravado doesn't make you a man, your actions do, but in the same breath crying about someone who you don't like their tone or colorful language kinda knocks you down a few rungs on the scale…

Yeah that's it everybody is talking about cats. Does it truly matter what it meant 400 years ago, it's what it means today that counts.

Language is by necessity imprecise and contextual. It matters as much what context a word is used in and from whom and two whom as the definition changes. Serious, frivolous, bawdy, insulting, offensive, innocuous, sad, comical, we have to have a means of communicating which allows for that ambiguity. A priest I knew once said the "F" word was a prayer. He said when uttered in the correct context, it meant "Well God I've don my best, the rest is up to you." Another person hated the overuse of the word because its frequency had deprived us of a means to show we were really, really angry! Beyond a guttural word for sexual intercourse, it became an even nastier term as when someone was going to F someone up! Or it was the height of astonishment as in !! or a sense of hopeless resignment as in "Were F'd now!"

Similarly with the word "pussy" one could speak of the local lady with the cat who did all sorts of tricks. One could remark on Mrs. Scantlings well known pussy. If Mr. Scantling was know to be "cat around" then the world could have delicious double meaning, redolent with double entendres , and if advertising Is good for business, Mrs. Scantling might not mind. This is the delicious ambiguity of language, which transcends from mere double entendre to metaphor, similie, puns and allusions. Have none of you considered the words from Troilus and Cresseda-- in text it reads

"Behold the Trojans Trumpet comes."

but when said on stage you swear they are saying

"Behold the Trojan Strumpet comes."

Or the dialogue in taming of the shrew which deals in tongues and tails and which ends up, when done in duet, as a bawdy dialogue.

Shakespeare is also chock full of prudes and people who wear their hearts on their sleeves so they can be easily "offended" and we have Moliere's "Tartuffe" who diagnosed hypocrites so masterfully. I rather am offended by people who are perpetually and endlessly offended by everything. They are like those insufferable and tiresome people who as dinner proceeds, place their dirty dishes on your side of the table and crowd you out with the detritus of the meal. It's a battle for space to try and inhibit you giving them liberty.

I always remember what words offend them and am quick to use them-- and quite unapologetically I might add, that is, if I ever invite them to dinner again.

But I should not be so hard on them. People who are often offended in this way have nothing else to contribute to the conversation.

By the way if ANY of you are out there who are easily offended, I recommend you read the Decameron of Boccacio to find out what they talked about back in the days of old. Or, if you think you are too proper and prim for that, then read "When Venus Ruled" which is a book about the "repressed, body-phobic, puritanical Victorians." My goodness, what lustful louts they were. They had all sorts of code words for things, and seemed to be having a jolly old time with all these codewords.

My goodness! All those heaving bosoms and thrusting swordsmen in the penny dreadfuls!

We live such impoverished lives because of the easily offended today.

"If you had a bunch of people over, and one guy kept yelling "HITLER WAS RIGHT" very loudly, every single time someone tried to talk, would you keep inviting that guy over, even though the government can't arrest him for saying it?"

Are you saying that someone is calling people pussies every time they try to post?

It seems like a more accurate analogy would be that someone dropped his beer and said "Oh, " when he did it, or yelled "" when his sports team was scored on.

If you were telling customers not to be pussies then that would probably be something you would be fired for.

But that isn't really an analogous situation to this. In this situation you are running a website.

A small number of people complain about something. However a larger number of people don't complain about it, they think it is fine or they don't care.

The question here is do we change our behaviour for a small number of people or do we not bow to the crying of the few.